The impact of democracy on the nuclear family

[godelian]

Parents should always pay for the children they create.

No. There are no unconditional obligations. A thing like that does not exist.

For example, if a man has a one-night stand with a woman, in Islamic law, the man has exactly zero obligations towards the pregnant woman or towards her child. It is legally not even considered to be his child. In fact, until the 70ies, this was also the rule in Europe. A man did not have any obligation whatsoever towards an illegitimate child.

Furthermore, in classical law, if a man has the responsibility, he also has full authority and full custody.

So, no, a man does not necessarily have to pay for a child that he has or may have fathered. That is very, very conditional. In many cases, he will in fact choose not to pay.

Outside the West, it still works like that. A woman has to be very careful who she gets pregnant from, because if the conditions are not right, she will be raising the child alone with zero financial support from the father.

So, the practice of breaking up, absconding with the children, and then demanding child support, does not work at all on the largest part of the globe.

[Immanuel Can]

Parents should always pay for the children they create.

No. There are no unconditional obligations. A thing like that does not exist.

There are moral obligations one cannot avoid. When one has made oneself a parent, one is inescapably responsible for that tiny and vulnerable person. It's one of humanity's greatest evils to fail in that responsibility.

For example, if a man has a one-night stand with a woman, in Islamic law, the man has exactly zero obligations towards the pregnant woman or towards her child.

That's just plain evil. It's just evil on two counts, instead of one. He's both dehumanized the woman and abandoned his child. The first sin does not excuse the second.

And this whole scenario is manifestly contrary to the very concept of family. If, as in your OP, "the nuclear family" is what you're genuinely concerned about, then this Sharia provision could not be more antithetical to it: it makes women abusable and children dispensible. That's nothing like family.

[godelian]

When one has made oneself a parent, one is inescapably responsible for that tiny and vulnerable person. It's one of humanity's greatest evils to fail in that responsibility.

You do not get to decide that. Right versus wrong gets decided by the moral law, which does not care about anybody's personal opinion.

For example, if a man has a one-night stand with a woman, in Islamic law, the man has exactly zero obligations towards the pregnant woman or towards her child.

That's just plain evil.

You do not get to decide that. Right versus wrong gets decided by the moral law, which does not care about anybody's personal opinion.

And this whole scenario is manifestly contrary to the very concept of family. If, as in your OP, "the nuclear family" is what you're genuinely concerned about, then this Sharia provision could not be more antithetical to it: it makes women abusable and children dispensible. That's nothing like family.

You do not get to decide that. Right versus wrong gets decided by the moral law, which does not care about anybody's personal opinion.

[Immanuel Can]

When one has made oneself a parent, one is inescapably responsible for that tiny and vulnerable person. It's one of humanity's greatest evils to fail in that responsibility.

You do not get to decide that.

God does.

For example, if a man has a one-night stand with a woman, in Islamic law, the man has exactly zero obligations towards the pregnant woman or towards her child.

That's just plain evil.

You do not get to decide that.

God does.

And this whole scenario is manifestly contrary to the very concept of family. If, as in your OP, "the nuclear family" is what you're genuinely concerned about, then this Sharia provision could not be more antithetical to it: it makes women abusable and children dispensible. That's nothing like family.

You do not get to decide that.

God does.

[godelian]

When one has made oneself a parent, one is inescapably responsible for that tiny and vulnerable person. It's one of humanity's greatest evils to fail in that responsibility.

You do not get to decide that.

God does.

Yes, the laws of Allah are the ultimate judge, according to which a woman does not get to benefit in legal terms from sleeping around. In the context of mere promiscuity, she cannot claim anything from the biological father of her pregnancy. God is not in the business of handing out rewards for shameless whoring.

[Immanuel Can]

You do not get to decide that.

God does.

Yes, the laws of Allah

Allah is not God. He gets to decide nothing.

[godelian]

God does.

Yes, the laws of Allah

Allah is not God. He gets to decide nothing.

For 2 billion people, Allah is God and he gets to decide everything.

[Immanuel Can]

Yes, the laws of Allah

Allah is not God. He gets to decide nothing.

For 2 billion people, Allah is God and he gets to decide everything.

Those 2 billion are in for a huge surprise.

[godelian]

Allah is not God. He gets to decide nothing.

For 2 billion people, Allah is God and he gets to decide everything.

Those 2 billion are in for a huge surprise.

Not so sure.

These two billion people are rather known to be spectacularly efficient at inflicting violent reprisals onto their enemies.

You see, there is this widespread misconception that violence is the problem. The truth is that violence is almost always the solution to the problem.

So, don't worry. I am confident that these two billion people will simply solve the problem as and when it occurs.

[Immanuel Can]

For 2 billion people, Allah is God and he gets to decide everything.

Those 2 billion are in for a huge surprise.

Not so sure.

Just wait. You'll be sure.

[godelian]

Those 2 billion are in for a huge surprise.

Not so sure.

Just wait. You'll be sure.

In order to replace dead bodies, you need to reproduce. It is clearly not the two billion Muslims who will face a huge problem when it comes to that.

By the way, it is precisely the fact that your adversary knows that you cannot replace your dead bodies, that encourages him to decimate them even harder. That is why the strong and independent childless and single women are always allies of the adversary.

You see, the West is terminally doomed and that's got little to do with Islam. The only redeeming quality of Islam is that it is not doomed.. That is already enough to come out on top. No additional magic needed.

[Gary Childress]

You do not get to decide that.

God does.

Yes, the laws of Allah are the ultimate judge, according to which a woman does not get to benefit in legal terms from sleeping around. In the context of mere promiscuity, she cannot claim anything from the biological father of her pregnancy. God is not in the business of handing out rewards for shameless whoring.

Men can sleep around as much as they want? Is that correct? Men can do no wrong pertaining to sexual conduct with women in Allah's view. Is that correct? So if you're a male and want offspring for cheap, it sounds like it's best to impregnate some strange woman that you'll never see again and leave her to support the kid.

[godelian]

Men can sleep around as much as they want? Is that correct? Men can do no wrong pertaining to sexual conduct with women in Allah's view. Is that correct? So if you're a male and want offspring for cheap, it sounds like it's best to impregnate some strange woman that you'll never see again and leave her to support the kid.

Your way of reasoning is not suitable for Islamic jurisprudence. In fact, it is logic itself that does not work like you seem to believe that it does. As a matter of fact, reasoning in terms of non sequitur claims is not allowed in any academic field. It may be acceptable in gender "studies" or in Christian theology, since these fields are not governed by logic, but you may want to be careful to generalize that method outside these fields. I suggest that you ask your questions to ChatGPT. His answers typically make good sense and he has a lot more patience than me.

[Gary Childress]

Men can sleep around as much as they want? Is that correct? Men can do no wrong pertaining to sexual conduct with women in Allah's view. Is that correct? So if you're a male and want offspring for cheap, it sounds like it's best to impregnate some strange woman that you'll never see again and leave her to support the kid.

Your way of reasoning is not suitable for Islamic jurisprudence. In fact, it is logic itself that does not work like you seem to believe that it does. As a matter of fact, reasoning in terms of non sequitur claims is not allowed in any academic field. It may be acceptable in gender "studies" or in Christian theology, since these fields are not governed by logic, but you may want to be careful to generalize that method outside these fields. I suggest that you ask your questions to ChatGPT. His answers typically make good sense and he has a lot more patience than me.

The non-sequitur is your answer above. Are men not also guilty of sexual misconduct if they sleep around, according to Islamic law or not? Should they not also bear the burden of childcare for any child that they produce outside of marriage, according to Islamic law or not? And if not, then why not?

[godelian]

Are men not also guilty of sexual misconduct if they sleep around, according to Islamic law or not? Should they not also bear the burden of childcare for any child that they produce outside of marriage, according to Islamic law or not? And if not, then why not?

ChatGPT: Do men bear the burden of childcare for any child that they produce outside of marriage, according to Islamic law?

In Islamic law (Sharia), the issue of paternity and responsibility for children born outside of marriage is quite specific and based on classical jurisprudence. Here's a clear breakdown:

1. Legitimacy and Paternity
A child born outside of wedlock (i.e., due to zina, or unlawful sexual intercourse) is considered illegitimate in traditional Islamic jurisprudence.
The biological father is not legally recognized as the father in terms of inheritance, lineage (nasab), or custodial rights and responsibilities.
The child is legally attributed only to the mother.

Key Hadith (Sahih Muslim, etc.):
"The child is for the [marital] bed, and the adulterer gets nothing."
This hadith forms the basis for denying legal paternity to a man in cases of zina.

2. Financial Responsibility
Because the biological father is not considered the legal father in Islamic law, he is not obligated to financially support or provide for the child.
The mother, or her family, typically bears the responsibility for the child.

A sperm donor is also not required to bear the burden of childcare. If the biological father has not recognized the woman as his wife, then her pregnancy is not his responsibility. The adulterer gets nothing.