Haven’t those who reject morality just because of its religious roots ended up constructing another belief system

[Belinda]

In which case I will ask you what is effectively the same question as before: do you think that the word 'good' actually MEANS 'that which is consonant and harmonious with the nature and purposes of God'?

Yes, that's its definition. It's the very essence of the good.

Maybe if we all prayed and worshiped God more, there would be paradise on Earth.

'Worship' literally means worthship. The word 'worship' is a shortened form of 'worthship.

I take it that as an American you live in a free country where people are allowed to decide for themselves what is worthy and what is unworthy.

[Immanuel Can]

Yes, that's its definition. It's the very essence of the good.

Maybe if we all prayed and worshiped God more, there would be paradise on Earth.

'Worship' literally means worthship. The word 'worship' is a shortened form of 'worthship.

Actually, it's not. That's just a rhetorical and mnemonic placeholder that clergymen sometimes use. It actually means, "to bow toward." (προσκυνέω)

I take it that as an American you live in a free country where people are allowed to decide for themselves what is worthy and what is unworthy.

Well, whether people have a right to choose what they worship and what they don't is one sort of question. But it's not the same question as whether what they choose to worship is "worthy" of that kind of devotion. That's a very different question, isn't it?

[Martin Peter Clarke]

However, mathematics is a language to recognize and discover order, rather than create order.

I don't recall making that statement. However, it is obvious that with the aid of mathematics one can create order where once was chaos.

Show me.

[Belinda]

Maybe if we all prayed and worshiped God more, there would be paradise on Earth.

'Worship' literally means worthship. The word 'worship' is a shortened form of 'worthship.

Actually, it's not. That's just a rhetorical and mnemonic placeholder that clergymen sometimes use. It actually means, "to bow toward." (προσκυνέω)

I take it that as an American you live in a free country where people are allowed to decide for themselves what is worthy and what is unworthy.

Well, whether people have a right to choose what they worship and what they don't is one sort of question. But it's not the same question as whether what they choose to worship is "worthy" of that kind of devotion. That's a very different question, isn't it?

Middle English worshippe, worship, "high respect, honor, fame," from Old English worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (West Saxon) "condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship).

The sense of "reverence paid or due to a supernatural or divine being" is attested by late Old English. The original sense is preserved in worshipful.

This day alyeve, to-morow on thy grave; This day a wyse man, to-morow but a foole; This day in worship, To-morow but a knave. ["Peter Idley's Instructions to His Son," c. 1450]

I am not claiming that the etymology of a word demonstrates what we ought today mean by the word, only that it is still the case that when an idea is worthy then that idea is worthy of respect .

[Immanuel Can]

'Worship' literally means worthship. The word 'worship' is a shortened form of 'worthship.

Actually, it's not. That's just a rhetorical and mnemonic placeholder that clergymen sometimes use. It actually means, "to bow toward." (προσκυνέω)

I take it that as an American you live in a free country where people are allowed to decide for themselves what is worthy and what is unworthy.

Well, whether people have a right to choose what they worship and what they don't is one sort of question. But it's not the same question as whether what they choose to worship is "worthy" of that kind of devotion. That's a very different question, isn't it?

Middle English worshippe, worship, "high respect, honor, fame," from Old English worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (West Saxon) "condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship).

Bad news. The NT wasn't written in English. It was written in Greek.

[Belinda]

Actually, it's not. That's just a rhetorical and mnemonic placeholder that clergymen sometimes use. It actually means, "to bow toward." (προσκυνέω)
Well, whether people have a right to choose what they worship and what they don't is one sort of question. But it's not the same question as whether what they choose to worship is "worthy" of that kind of devotion. That's a very different question, isn't it?

Middle English worshippe, worship, "high respect, honor, fame," from Old English worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (West Saxon) "condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship).

Bad news. The NT wasn't written in English. It was written in Greek.

1522–1535. Tyndale's biblical text is credited with being the first English-language Biblical translation to work directly from Greek and, for the Pentateuch, Hebrew texts, although it relied heavily upon the Latin Vulgate and German Bibles.

Manny, I don't know a lot of facts either, but I do look up the facts.

[Immanuel Can]

Middle English worshippe, worship, "high respect, honor, fame," from Old English worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (West Saxon) "condition of being worthy, dignity, glory, distinction, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship).

Bad news. The NT wasn't written in English. It was written in Greek.

1522–1535. Tyndale's biblical text is credited with being the first English-language Biblical translation to work directly from Greek and, for the Pentateuch, Hebrew texts, although it relied heavily upon the Latin Vulgate and German Bibles.

Manny, I don't know a lot of facts either, but I do look up the facts.

You don't know how translation works, I guess. There are no absolute equivalencies from language to language. Greek has no word that means "worth-ship," and "worth" is not even included in the original idea, which means "bow towards." English translators looked for the closest equivalent they could find in English, and decided it was "worship": but they might as easily have gone with "prostrate" or "bow down to," or something like that.

Thus, we can't make much of the English synonym. It's a later gloss, not an original intention.

[Belinda]

Bad news. The NT wasn't written in English. It was written in Greek.

1522–1535. Tyndale's biblical text is credited with being the first English-language Biblical translation to work directly from Greek and, for the Pentateuch, Hebrew texts, although it relied heavily upon the Latin Vulgate and German Bibles.

Manny, I don't know a lot of facts either, but I do look up the facts.

You don't know how translation works, I guess. There are no absolute equivalencies from language to language. Greek has no word that means "worth-ship," and "worth" is not even included in the original idea, which means "bow towards." English translators looked for the closest equivalent they could find in English, and decided it was "worship": but they might as easily have gone with "prostrate" or "bow down to," or something like that.

Thus, we can't make much of the English synonym. It's a later gloss, not an original intention.

There are problems with translation from one language to another.

Translators don't simply find the nearest equivalent word or phrase. Translators seek the intention of the original author. "Bow down" and"prostrate oneself" reek of paganism , so these terms would certainly not suffice.

Ancient texts about God are not about pagan gods but are about God, Whose intention is not pagan ritual but is love.

"Worth" may not be a word used much in Academe---Anglo Saxon terms are still more commonly used for cursing than for religion. Whenever possible I prefer the language of the common man.

[Immanuel Can]

1522–1535. Tyndale's biblical text is credited with being the first English-language Biblical translation to work directly from Greek and, for the Pentateuch, Hebrew texts, although it relied heavily upon the Latin Vulgate and German Bibles.

Manny, I don't know a lot of facts either, but I do look up the facts.

You don't know how translation works, I guess. There are no absolute equivalencies from language to language. Greek has no word that means "worth-ship," and "worth" is not even included in the original idea, which means "bow towards." English translators looked for the closest equivalent they could find in English, and decided it was "worship": but they might as easily have gone with "prostrate" or "bow down to," or something like that.

Thus, we can't make much of the English synonym. It's a later gloss, not an original intention.

There are problems with translation from one language to another.

Yes, there are...always.

Translators don't simply find the nearest equivalent word or phrase. Translators seek the intention of the original author. "Bow down" and"prostrate oneself" reek of paganism...

Well, since the Greek existed long before your English equivalent, and your English equivalent is nothing more than an attempt to translate the Greek, which one is primary? And the answer obviously has nothing to do with how we may feel about it, or whether we may associate it with one thing or the other.

There's actually nothing distinctly "pagan" about that word. It merely means that whatever one "bows toward," one is reverencing. And there are things worthy of reverence, and things that are not. Plenty of people bow to their government, to their wealth, to their reputation, to their iphones...and don't realize that those things are their primary values, the thing they are treating as of most worth...the thing with which they have replaced God, and so have made their object of worship.

Now, that's pagan. And in that sense, a rich, educated Westerner can be just as "pagan" as the native dancing by a fire. He just may not realize he is.

[Belinda]

You don't know how translation works, I guess. There are no absolute equivalencies from language to language. Greek has no word that means "worth-ship," and "worth" is not even included in the original idea, which means "bow towards." English translators looked for the closest equivalent they could find in English, and decided it was "worship": but they might as easily have gone with "prostrate" or "bow down to," or something like that.

Thus, we can't make much of the English synonym. It's a later gloss, not an original intention.

There are problems with translation from one language to another.

Yes, there are...always.

Translators don't simply find the nearest equivalent word or phrase. Translators seek the intention of the original author. "Bow down" and"prostrate oneself" reek of paganism...

Well, since the Greek existed long before your English equivalent, and your English equivalent is nothing more than an attempt to translate the Greek, which one is primary? And the answer obviously has nothing to do with how we may feel about it, or whether we may associate it with one thing or the other.

There's actually nothing distinctly "pagan" about that word. It merely means that whatever one "bows toward," one is reverencing. And there are things worthy of reverence, and things that are not. Plenty of people bow to their government, to their wealth, to their reputation, to their iphones...and don't realize that those things are their primary values, the thing they are treating as of most worth...the thing with which they have replaced God, and so have made their object of worship.

Now, that's pagan. And in that sense, a rich, educated Westerner can be just as "pagan" as the native dancing by a fire. He just may not realize he is.

The numbers of people are diminishing who literally bow down and prostrate themselves before God. I have no quarrel with people who do so.

Certainly there are things that are worthy and things that are unworthy! The unworthy things are false idols.

[Immanuel Can]

The numbers of people are diminishing who literally bow down and prostrate themselves before God.

“As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.” (Rom. 14:11)

Certainly there are things that are worthy and things that are unworthy! The unworthy things are false idols.

Yes, there are. But knowing what is worthy and what not obviously doesn't depend on the decision of the individual, obviously: because if it did, then anything a person could want to evaluate as "worthy" would be equally so. If we admit that there are things of genuine, objective worth, and things that are objectively unworthy of reverence and valuing, then it means there are criteria for "worthiness." And having the right criteria makes all the difference.

My question would be, what's more worthy of being respected and valued than God Himself?

[Belinda]

The numbers of people are diminishing who literally bow down and prostrate themselves before God.

“As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.” (Rom. 14:11)

Certainly there are things that are worthy and things that are unworthy! The unworthy things are false idols.

Yes, there are. But knowing what is worthy and what not obviously doesn't depend on the decision of the individual, obviously: because if it did, then anything a person could want to evaluate as "worthy" would be equally so. If we admit that there are things of genuine, objective worth, and things that are objectively unworthy of reverence and valuing, then it means there are criteria for "worthiness." And having the right criteria makes all the difference.

My question would be, what's more worthy of being respected and valued than God Himself?

God is essence of good, truth and beauty, and that trinity is the most worthy .

[Immanuel Can]

The numbers of people are diminishing who literally bow down and prostrate themselves before God.

“As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.” (Rom. 14:11)

Certainly there are things that are worthy and things that are unworthy! The unworthy things are false idols.

Yes, there are. But knowing what is worthy and what not obviously doesn't depend on the decision of the individual, obviously: because if it did, then anything a person could want to evaluate as "worthy" would be equally so. If we admit that there are things of genuine, objective worth, and things that are objectively unworthy of reverence and valuing, then it means there are criteria for "worthiness." And having the right criteria makes all the difference.

My question would be, what's more worthy of being respected and valued than God Himself?

God is essence of good, truth and beauty, and that trinity is the most worthy .

Good, truth and beauty are not gods, and they're not a trinity. They are qualties...abstractions...adjectives, really. They require a noun: as in "good dinner," "true statement," "beautiful day." Alone, they don't signify anything particular to us.

But that they are not triune is also evident in the fact that they can also occur quite separately: as in a "good slap," a "true deception," and a "beautiful witch."

[Belinda]

“As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.” (Rom. 14:11)


Yes, there are. But knowing what is worthy and what not obviously doesn't depend on the decision of the individual, obviously: because if it did, then anything a person could want to evaluate as "worthy" would be equally so. If we admit that there are things of genuine, objective worth, and things that are objectively unworthy of reverence and valuing, then it means there are criteria for "worthiness." And having the right criteria makes all the difference.

My question would be, what's more worthy of being respected and valued than God Himself?

God is essence of good, truth and beauty, and that trinity is the most worthy .

Good, truth and beauty are not gods, and they're not a trinity. They are qualties...abstractions...adjectives, really. They require a noun: as in "good dinner," "true statement," "beautiful day." Alone, they don't signify anything particular to us.

But that they are not triune is also evident in the fact that they can also occur quite separately: as in a "good slap," a "true deception," and a "beautiful witch."

You just explained the nature of pornographic language.

[Immanuel Can]

God is essence of good, truth and beauty, and that trinity is the most worthy .

Good, truth and beauty are not gods, and they're not a trinity. They are qualties...abstractions...adjectives, really. They require a noun: as in "good dinner," "true statement," "beautiful day." Alone, they don't signify anything particular to us.

But that they are not triune is also evident in the fact that they can also occur quite separately: as in a "good slap," a "true deception," and a "beautiful witch."

You just explained the nature of pornographic language.

I'm interested. In what way?