Moral status: robots, foetuses, and healthy patients

[Age]

Fretting over the details of one being's rights (while making no mention of the second being) in a two being situation, is somewhere between ignorant and disingenuous.

Are there 'beings' who have 'different rights' than others?

[henry quirk]

Unsupported assertion.

Granted.

[henry quirk]

So, if you had the beginnings of a new being growing inside of you -- do you have a right to defend your life against that one who'd take it from you?

Are we talkin' about an unnatural alien invasion or a natural pregnancy?

[Lacewing]

So, if you had the beginnings of a new being growing inside of you -- do you have a right to defend your life against that one who'd take it from you?

Are we talkin' about an unnatural alien invasion or a natural pregnancy?

Does it matter? You have a right to defend your own life, yes?

Or are you going to carry and birth that alien/baby and sacrifice your life for it?

[henry quirk]

Does it matter?

Sure.

An alien (like the one from the movies, for example), without my permission, invades my body: damn right I'll fight to evict it.

A baby, who I invite into *my body by way of my own choices and actions: no, I haven't the right to kill that person. And, unlike the alien that will literally burst from my chest when it's done incubating, the baby isn't a threat, it's not gonna kill me.

I await the the inevitable rape and life of the mother in a problematic pregnancy arguments.




*if I were a woman...as a man, I can't become pregnant

[Age]

Does it matter?

Sure.

An alien (like the one from the movies, for example), without my permission, invades my body: damn right I'll fight to evict it.

A baby, who I invite into *my body by way of my own choices and actions: no, I haven't the right to kill that person.

But, if when that 'person' is born and attempts to still some moldy old bread from you, for example, because it is hungry, then 'you' are then allowed to shoot dead and kill 'that person', well if 'you' are "henry quirk" you are allowed to, anyway.

[Lacewing]

So, Henry, it appears that you are saying there are EXCEPTIONS to whether someone has a right to defend their own life, yes?

We do not have the right to defend our own life against a natural biological process that produces a mammalian offspring from an embryo.

All of our years of investment in our own lives are inconsequential and forfeit to a biological process, yes?

The mammalian offspring takes precedence, right? That is counter to your claim that everyone has a right to defend their own life.

the baby isn't a threat, it's not gonna kill me.

Not only can the process kill you, it can destroy the life of someone who doesn't have the desire or means to raise and support another being. The offspring may not have such a great life, as a result, either. Do you really think we need more unwanted beings injected into the system?

Why is it so difficult for you to consider/understand that NATURE needs checks and balances? Humans (like all of nature) have been doing this for a long time in various ways. Must people infest the Earth to the detriment of all else? Religion seems to have no bounds in its ignorant quest for authority/control over everyone. How do we defend ourselves from THAT?

[henry quirk]

We do not have the right to defend our own life against a natural biological process that produces a mammalian offspring from an embryo.

No, you don't have the right to kill a person you invited into the world by way of your choices and actions just becuz that person inconveniences you.

All of our years of investment in our own lives are inconsequential and forfeit to a biological process, yes?

If you don't want babies: don't make them.

That is counter to your claim that everyone has a right to defend their own life.

Nope. Beng pregnant, most of the time, for most women, is not life-threatening and, when it is, obviously the woman has a difficult choice to make: Do I preserve my life or take the risk on losing it to preserve my child's? Either choice is moral.

it can destroy the life of someone who doesn't have the desire or means to raise and support another being.

Then, again: Don't. Make. Babies.

The offspring may not have such a great life, as a result, either.

One more time: don't make babies.

Can't wait to get into the whole rape thing...

[Lacewing]

blah, blah, blah

Yeh, Henry... life grows everywhere... and gets crushed everywhere... through no intent of malice. Life tromps over life all the time. It regenerates where and when it can. We're part of the process, not separate from it. Stop blaming people for not upholding your so-called morals.

[henry quirk]

intent of malice.

Ending a person's life becuz they inconvenience you is pretty damn malicious.

[seeds]

We do not have the right to defend our own life against a natural biological process that produces a mammalian offspring from an embryo.

No, you don't have the right to kill a person you invited into the world by way of your choices and actions just becuz that person inconveniences you.

For the record, I am totally against the modern-day practice of using abortion as just another means of birth control.

However, with that being said, just to play devil's advocate in response to henry's argument,...

...through her own "choices and actions" a woman "invites" a man into "her world" via marriage but didn't realize until months later that he was prone to fits of violent rage,...

...not by choice, but brought on by a brain tumor (or some other physiological anomaly).

So, the question is, does the woman, who just so happens to be wearing a legal sidearm at the time, have the right to defend herself and "off" this other human as he comes at her with a knife after declaring he was going to kill her?

Is she simply supposed to accept the "inconvenience" of forfeiting her life because she "invited" this physiologically defective - life-threatening - man into her world?

Will henry's solution be, "...well, don't invite men into your world..."?

Can't wait to get into the whole rape thing...

What is that supposed to mean?

Do you, or do you not make exceptions for rape?
_______

[Lacewing]

Ending a person's life becuz they inconvenience you is pretty damn malicious.

There are many different ways to see and interpret.

[henry quirk]

...through her own "choices and actions" a woman "invites" a man into "her world" via marriage but didn't realize until months later that he was prone to fits of violent rage...not by choice, but brought on by a brain tumor (or some other physiological anomaly).

So, the question is, does the woman, who just so happens to be wearing a legal sidearm at the time, have the right to defend herself and "off" this other human as he comes at her with a knife after declaring he was going to kill her?

Yes, full stop.

Do you, or do you not make exceptions for rape?

I do.

[henry quirk]

Ending a person's life becuz they inconvenience you is pretty damn malicious.

There are many different ways to see and interpret.

Not really. If you're preggers becuz of choice and action (you weren't raped), and the pregnancy is normal (your life is not in jeopardy) then you have no right to kill the baby.

Next up: it's not a person! spiel.

[Lacewing]

There are many different ways to see and interpret.

Not really.

For you.