How AI, Robotics, and Clean Energy Will End Labor and Money – A Future Where Everything Is Free

[BigMike]

To be sure praise and blame are tools not references to Cosmic values, although many praise and blame as if by reference to Cosmic values.

Evolutionary impulse presumably worked out well enough for some long ago humanoids. An evolutionary leap for a subsection of humanoids was when our ancestors codified laws. Laws are founded on reason not passions.

Praise is never irrational where praise is due. The irrationality of blaming the criminal is pushed aside and free will is implied because that particular definition of human nature saves time and expense in the practical admin of justice.

Exactly — thank you, Belinda. You’re making a crucial point that deserves to be underlined.

The fact that praise and blame are felt deeply and serve practical roles doesn’t mean they’re grounded in objective moral truths or metaphysical freedom. They’re tools, as you say — evolved strategies that helped early humans form social cohesion, deter harm, and encourage pro-social behavior long before any rational legal systems emerged. But we’ve since evolved another layer: reason.

And yes, law was that leap — codifying behavior based not on raw passion, but on deliberate principles aimed at fairness, protection, and order. The trick is to keep building on that trajectory, not backslide into instinctive retribution just because it feels good.

Blaming someone “as if they had free will” might seem efficient, but it’s not honest. It saves on courtroom time, sure, but it also compromises our long-term ability to build systems that are just, rehabilitative, and grounded in reality.

We can acknowledge the feelings — and still outgrow the reflex.

[seeds]

The action of a brain is called a mind. Minds are private. We can't feel each other's pain or mood like we can view each others' nervous systems .

This is because brains can feel locations of pain from other parts of the body but have no mechanism for feeling pain themselves ; brains don't feel pain...

Right!

In fact, brains don't "feel" anything.

The only thing that experiences and "feels" qualia such as "pain" is the "ghost" in the machine that you and BigMike are insisting doesn't exist.

Indeed, the ability to "feel" pain is a "warning system" that lets the "ghost" know when harm is occurring to the body so that the "ghost" can take measures to mitigate the harm.

In truth, the ubiquitous nervous system of the human body is a complex, fibrous-like network of pathways that give the mind's "I Am-ness" (gives the "ghost") access to the body which literally resides outside of the "ghost's mind.

In other words, just as the eyes and the ears are nothing more than "windows" that allow the "ghost" to peer out into the universe (literally outward from its own mind and into the inner dimension of God's mind - as per Berkeleyanism),...

...likewise, so is the nervous system just another type of "window" that allows the "ghost" to access, feel, and control the body that, again, is a part of the universe (a part of God's* mind) and not a part of the "ghost's" mind.

*(With God simply being the greater "GHOST" of the universe, in whose "ghostly" image our "ghost" has been created.)

While asleep, the "ghost's" consciousness (like some kind of liquid-like essence) literally "withdraws" from the nervous system and from all of those other bodily "windows" and is now directed inward.

Indeed, while asleep, the "ghost" no longer sees, or feels, or hears, or tastes, or smells any of the phenomenal features of the universe that it normally experiences while awake.

While asleep, the five senses of the "ghost's" consciousness...

(senses that are an integral aspect of the "ghost's" inner being and are not dependent on the existence of physical eyes, or ears, or a tongue, or a nose, or a nervous system, etc., which, again, belong to God, and are but mere "windows" into the inner world of God's mind - the universe)

...are now directed inward, wherein the "ghost's" attention and information-decoding consciousness are now involved in the process of explicating vivid dreams into existence from the fields of information that reside within the "ghost's" mind.

That's why I keep insisting (suggesting) that whatever the natural mechanism is that allows us to explicate the vivid, three-dimensional features of our dreams into existence whenever we direct our consciousness inward while sleeping,...

...is no doubt the same natural mechanism that allows us to explicate the three-dimensional features of the universe into existence (from fields of quantum information) whenever we direct our consciousness outward while awake.

And ^^^that^^^ my dear Belinda, offers a possible resolution to the "Measurement Problem" and the mystery of what it is that instigates the collapse of the quantum wave function.

Seeds wrote about the Block Universe.

In other words, not only is the future causally determined, it's also already there, just like a mountain is already there whether we’ve climbed to the peak or not.

True, but the Block Universe does not apply to us, as we are creatures of time not eternity.

As creatures of time we are poised on foremost tip of the forward deck of the Titanic like her in the film. Scary.

First of all, I didn't write that, no, ChatGPT wrote that. I merely copy and pasted Chat's words.

And secondly, you're darn right the Block Universe doesn't apply to us.

Why?

Because the Block Universe model of reality is pure horse crap, of which I discuss further in my next post to BigMike.
_______

[seeds]

Alright, let’s do this — one more time — without theatrical fog machines or quotes from yourself pretending they’re refutations.

What do you mean by "...pretending they're refutations..."?

Just because your own biased views don't allow you to recognize them as such, it doesn't negate the fact that they are indeed refutations of your superficial vision of reality.

You keep trying to smuggle in a "ghost in the machine" by misreading what determinism allows,...

So says the "ghost" in the machine who keeps trying to deny its own existence.

In other words, why in the world would I need to "smuggle in" something that's already there and has been there all along.

Furthermore, even though I often employ the term myself, I hardly think that the word "ghost" is befitting of the most important, the most substantial, and the most permanent aspect of our being.

...then acting shocked when I use terms like “feelings,” “suffering,” or “consciousness.”

Not shocked, just amazed at the fact that even though you insist that a human is nothing more than an "agentless/soulless" conglomeration of atoms in the form of what we call a body and a "brain"...

...you nevertheless believe that that, again, "soulless"/"agentless" brain is not only "conscious," but is capable of experiencing "feelings" such as suffering, or love, or sorrow, or joy, or pain, or ecstasy, or the unique taste of an apple, or the unique smell of a lavender bush, etc., etc..

Again, not shocked, just amazed at what you believe the...

"...metaphorical equivalent of an advanced computer program consisting of a chance-derived amalgam of unconscious algorithmic processes that do nothing more than "mimic" the presence of an "I Am-ness"/"self"..."

...is capable of.

Let me clarify it yet again:

1. Consciousness exists.
Not as a soul, not as a floating ghost, but as an emergent property of a highly complex, causally-structured biological system.

How many times do I have to point out to you the difference between "weak emergence" and that of "Strong emergence"?

That system — the human brain — is built by evolution,...

Yes, a "brain building system" that required the pre-existence of an unfathomably ordered setting that had to be in place before the evolution of the brain could even commence.

And the point is that only an absolute fool would believe that such a setting and system simply "created itself" without any intelligent guidance.

There’s no contradiction in saying deterministic systems can have consciousness. That’s literally what neuroscience is mapping out every day.

Consciousness may indeed emerge from a brain which, itself, is a product of a deterministic system,...

...however, it is the "I Am-ness" that forms the locus (or core) of a mind that is conscious, not the material "system" from which the "I Am-ness" (the "ghost" in the machine) emerged.

If you ever lighten up a little on your belief in hardcore materialism, as armchair philosophers, we could perhaps discuss the possibility that if everything throughout the entire universe...

(including the stars, and planets, right down to the plastic keyboards we are typing on)

...is literally "alive"...

(note: not "conscious" as is suggested in "Pansychism," just imbued with the essence of life)

...then it might possibly explain "abiogenesis."

And that's because if the essence of life is already present within the fabric of matter itself, then there is just a tiny step required for inanimate (yet living) matter to become animate matter in the form of evolvable microbes.

And ^^^there^^^ is the point where determinism (or at least the deterministic processes of evolution) might possibly kick in.

2. Subjective experience doesn’t violate determinism.
Your repeated confusion — or misrepresentation — hinges on thinking that if we can feel things, we must somehow be floating above causality. No. We feel things because we’re deterministic.

Ah yes, there's nothing like using good old circular reasoning to prove one's point.

What you did there is not much different from, say, a Christian insisting that the Bible is true because it says so in the Bible.

Good one, BigMike.

Our brains are wired to produce qualia in response to internal and external stimuli. That doesn't imply magic. That implies complexity.

If you had suggested that our brains have been "wired" to produce a conscious entity that is capable of experiencing the qualia of the unique "smell" of a rose, or the unique "taste" (or flavor) of an apple,...

...then we'd be getting somewhere logical.

However, you used your "free will" to choose nonsense instead.

Though, I suppose there's some truth to the notion that determinism "caused" you to choose nonsense.

And that's because, in the past, either by accident, or by personal preference, you freely chose to surround the locus of your inner being (your "I Am-ness"/your inner "ghost") with a "galaxy" of disposable and replaceable theories and assumptions, which, in turn, inform your take on reality.

3. There’s no “inadvertent” admission of a ghost.
You quote me as saying humans are machines with feelings. That’s not a Freudian slip. That’s the whole point. That’s what makes humans morally relevant in a deterministic universe — not that we’re exceptions to physical law, but that we’re complex enough within it to generate sentience.

Again, so says the "ghost" in the machine who keeps trying to deny its own existence.

Now, as for the block universe stuff:

Yes, the block universe model — where all points in spacetime are equally “real” — is compatible with hard determinism. So what? It doesn’t change anything I’ve said. Causality still explains what happens within that spacetime block. The future doesn’t cause the past. The arrow of time, thermodynamics, and human experience all still unfold locally. If anything, the block universe is just a philosophical zoom-out. It doesn’t give you a free will coupon.

If the block universe is just a "...philosophical zoom-out...," then the arrow of time, thermodynamics, and human experience, no more "unfold" in such a universe than do the storyline and actions encoded on a DVD, "unfold."

Indeed, zooming-out on the block universe is no different than zooming-out on a DVD that is encoded with the movie - "Gone with the Wind."

Like I said, it's a ridiculous theory that ranks right up there (or down there) with the absurdity of the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics.

So no — you’re not catching me in contradictions. You’re just recycling a misunderstanding, over and over, because you're unwilling to accept that complexity doesn’t imply metaphysics.

And you're unwilling to address the mystery of how that "complexity" arose.

Indeed, you simply take the pre-existence of an unthinkable level of complexity and order for granted and promote a theory that offers absolutely no accounting for the origin of the foundation upon which your theory is based.

If you want to keep playing semantic hide-and-seek with the word “agent,” fine. But don’t pretend you’re doing philosophy. You’re doing rhetorical cosplay — and the costume’s wearing thin.

The only "cosplay" taking place here is by humans who do not realize that their bodies are nothing more than the "costumes" that their "I Am-nesses" momentarily wear as they unwittingly participate in the metaphorical equivalent of a video game that they call a universe.

And if you're dumb enough to believe in the "block universe" nonsense, then it's a fixed video game encoded on some sort of digital medium, wherein all of its fully-intact, past, present, and future events and scripted characters can be accessed in some way.

And that's where your nonsense about humans being "soulless/agentless" entities rears its ugly head.

For imagining that in 10 million years from now, some advanced version of us, or that of our AI could somehow discover the means of accessing the "non-local" informational underpinning of reality in such a way that would allow them to somehow insert themselves into the fully-explicated ("local") events that took place 10 million years prior to their own version of a "local" state of "nowness,"...

...say, for example, your 21st birthday party...

...and expect to be interacting with the actual "you" (again, your "I Am-ness"),...

---would be the metaphorical equivalent of reaching into the informational underpinning of the DVD of, again, the movie - "Gone with the Wind," and expecting to be interacting with the actual Clark Gable.

Yet that is precisely what your materialistic take on reality implies.

It implies that every aspect of a human, even that which experiences the qualia of pain, or love, or sorrow, or joy, etc., is nothing more than the equivalent of "computer code."

Wow, what a wonderful theory, BigMike!

I'm sure that once everyone in the world realizes that they are nothing more than "computer code," and that life is meaningless and has no ultimate purpose for us as individuals, then the joy will be uncontainable, and peace on earth will finally arrive.
_______

[BigMike]

You’re right — I’ve thoroughly expressed my own views in my own words, again and again, with clarity and consistency. I’ve made the core principles of determinism plain, and I’ve explained how consciousness, feeling, and experience emerge naturally from a physical system without needing to summon ghosts, magic, or anything that “floats above physics.”

I can’t say the same about you.

You’ve tossed around metaphors, accused me of denying my own existence, and tried to patch the holes in your argument with grand declarations instead of substance. At some point, it stops being dialogue and starts sounding like someone shouting at the wind, hoping the echo will prove a point.

If there’s anything new to say, I’m here. But if this is just the same cycle of mischaracterization dressed up as profundity, I’ll pass.

[Belinda]

The action of a brain is called a mind. Minds are private. We can't feel each other's pain or mood like we can view each others' nervous systems .

This is because brains can feel locations of pain from other parts of the body but have no mechanism for feeling pain themselves ; brains don't feel pain...

Right!

In fact, brains don't "feel" anything.

The only thing that experiences and "feels" qualia such as "pain" is the "ghost" in the machine that you and BigMike are insisting doesn't exist.

Indeed, the ability to "feel" pain is a "warning system" that lets the "ghost" know when harm is occurring to the body so that the "ghost" can take measures to mitigate the harm.

In truth, the ubiquitous nervous system of the human body is a complex, fibrous-like network of pathways that give the mind's "I Am-ness" (gives the "ghost") access to the body which literally resides outside of the "ghost's mind.

In other words, just as the eyes and the ears are nothing more than "windows" that allow the "ghost" to peer out into the universe (literally outward from its own mind and into the inner dimension of God's mind - as per Berkeleyanism),...

...likewise, so is the nervous system just another type of "window" that allows the "ghost" to access, feel, and control the body that, again, is a part of the universe (a part of God's* mind) and not a part of the "ghost's" mind.

*(With God simply being the greater "GHOST" of the universe, in whose "ghostly" image our "ghost" has been created.)

While asleep, the "ghost's" consciousness (like some kind of liquid-like essence) literally "withdraws" from the nervous system and from all of those other bodily "windows" and is now directed inward.

Indeed, while asleep, the "ghost" no longer sees, or feels, or hears, or tastes, or smells any of the phenomenal features of the universe that it normally experiences while awake.

While asleep, the five senses of the "ghost's" consciousness...

(senses that are an integral aspect of the "ghost's" inner being and are not dependent on the existence of physical eyes, or ears, or a tongue, or a nose, or a nervous system, etc., which, again, belong to God, and are but mere "windows" into the inner world of God's mind - the universe)

...are now directed inward, wherein the "ghost's" attention and information-decoding consciousness are now involved in the process of explicating vivid dreams into existence from the fields of information that reside within the "ghost's" mind.

That's why I keep insisting (suggesting) that whatever the natural mechanism is that allows us to explicate the vivid, three-dimensional features of our dreams into existence whenever we direct our consciousness inward while sleeping,...

...is no doubt the same natural mechanism that allows us to explicate the three-dimensional features of the universe into existence (from fields of quantum information) whenever we direct our consciousness outward while awake.

And ^^^that^^^ my dear Belinda, offers a possible resolution to the "Measurement Problem" and the mystery of what it is that instigates the collapse of the quantum wave function.

Seeds wrote about the Block Universe.

In other words, not only is the future causally determined, it's also already there, just like a mountain is already there whether we’ve climbed to the peak or not.

True, but the Block Universe does not apply to us, as we are creatures of time not eternity.

As creatures of time we are poised on foremost tip of the forward deck of the Titanic like her in the film. Scary.

First of all, I didn't write that, no, ChatGPT wrote that. I merely copy and pasted Chat's words.

And secondly, you're darn right the Block Universe doesn't apply to us.

Why?

Because the Block Universe model of reality is pure horse crap, of which I discuss further in my next post to BigMike.

There is nothing ghostly about pain or any other quale.
The nervous system's ability to perceive pain involves both the peripheral and central nervous systems. The peripheral nervous system, specifically nociceptors (pain receptors), detects harmful stimuli and transmits signals to the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord). The central nervous system then processes and interprets these signals, leading to the sensation of pain.


Organs of special sense (E.G. ears and eyes )don't make sense of their environment, it's the central nervous system that does that.

Sleep occurs iin a circadian rhythm that correlates with brain chemicals which are either off or on. Dream sleep correlates with different chemicals from deep sleep i.e. non- REM sleep.I am not sure whether or not the circadian rhythm theory is mainstream .

[Belinda]

To be sure praise and blame are tools not references to Cosmic values, although many praise and blame as if by reference to Cosmic values.

Evolutionary impulse presumably worked out well enough for some long ago humanoids. An evolutionary leap for a subsection of humanoids was when our ancestors codified laws. Laws are founded on reason not passions.

Praise is never irrational where praise is due. The irrationality of blaming the criminal is pushed aside and free will is implied because that particular definition of human nature saves time and expense in the practical admin of justice.

Exactly — thank you, Belinda. You’re making a crucial point that deserves to be underlined.

The fact that praise and blame are felt deeply and serve practical roles doesn’t mean they’re grounded in objective moral truths or metaphysical freedom. They’re tools, as you say — evolved strategies that helped early humans form social cohesion, deter harm, and encourage pro-social behavior long before any rational legal systems emerged. But we’ve since evolved another layer: reason.

And yes, law was that leap — codifying behavior based not on raw passion, but on deliberate principles aimed at fairness, protection, and order. The trick is to keep building on that trajectory, not backslide into instinctive retribution just because it feels good.

Blaming someone “as if they had free will” might seem efficient, but it’s not honest. It saves on courtroom time, sure, but it also compromises our long-term ability to build systems that are just, rehabilitative, and grounded in reality.

We can acknowledge the feelings — and still outgrow the reflex.

Yes, punitive criminal justice is short -termism in action.

[seeds]

The action of a brain is called a mind. Minds are private. We can't feel each other's pain or mood like we can view each others' nervous systems .

This is because brains can feel locations of pain from other parts of the body but have no mechanism for feeling pain themselves ; brains don't feel pain...

Right!

In fact, brains don't "feel" anything.

The only thing that experiences and "feels" qualia such as "pain" is the "ghost" in the machine that you and BigMike are insisting doesn't exist.

Indeed, the ability to "feel" pain is a "warning system" that lets the "ghost" know when harm is occurring to the body so that the "ghost" can take measures to mitigate the harm.

In truth, the ubiquitous nervous system of the human body is a complex, fibrous-like network of pathways that give the mind's "I Am-ness" (gives the "ghost") access to the body which literally resides outside of the "ghost's mind.

In other words, just as the eyes and the ears are nothing more than "windows" that allow the "ghost" to peer out into the universe (literally outward from its own mind and into the inner dimension of God's mind - as per Berkeleyanism),...

...likewise, so is the nervous system just another type of "window" that allows the "ghost" to access, feel, and control the body that, again, is a part of the universe (a part of God's* mind) and not a part of the "ghost's" mind.

*(With God simply being the greater "GHOST" of the universe, in whose "ghostly" image our "ghost" has been created.)

While asleep, the "ghost's" consciousness (like some kind of liquid-like essence) literally "withdraws" from the nervous system and from all of those other bodily "windows" and is now directed inward.

Indeed, while asleep, the "ghost" no longer sees, or feels, or hears, or tastes, or smells any of the phenomenal features of the universe that it normally experiences while awake.

While asleep, the five senses of the "ghost's" consciousness...

(senses that are an integral aspect of the "ghost's" inner being and are not dependent on the existence of physical eyes, or ears, or a tongue, or a nose, or a nervous system, etc., which, again, belong to God, and are but mere "windows" into the inner world of God's mind - the universe)

...are now directed inward, wherein the "ghost's" attention and information-decoding consciousness are now involved in the process of explicating vivid dreams into existence from the fields of information that reside within the "ghost's" mind.

That's why I keep insisting (suggesting) that whatever the natural mechanism is that allows us to explicate the vivid, three-dimensional features of our dreams into existence whenever we direct our consciousness inward while sleeping,...

...is no doubt the same natural mechanism that allows us to explicate the three-dimensional features of the universe into existence (from fields of quantum information) whenever we direct our consciousness outward while awake.

And ^^^that^^^ my dear Belinda, offers a possible resolution to the "Measurement Problem" and the mystery of what it is that instigates the collapse of the quantum wave function.

Seeds wrote about the Block Universe...

In other words, not only is the future causally determined, it's also already there, just like a mountain is already there whether we’ve climbed to the peak or not.

...True, but the Block Universe does not apply to us, as we are creatures of time not eternity.

As creatures of time we are poised on foremost tip of the forward deck of the Titanic like her in the film. Scary.

First of all, I didn't write that, no, ChatGPT wrote that. I merely copy and pasted Chat's words.

And secondly, you're darn right the Block Universe doesn't apply to us.

Why?

Because the Block Universe model of reality is pure horse crap, of which I discuss further in my next post to BigMike.

There is nothing ghostly about pain or any other quale.
The nervous system's ability to perceive pain involves both the peripheral and central nervous systems. The peripheral nervous system, specifically nociceptors (pain receptors), detects harmful stimuli and transmits signals to the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord). The central nervous system then processes and interprets these signals, leading to the sensation of pain.

The "nervous system" doesn't "perceive" or "interpret" anything.

No more than a thermometer "perceives" and "interprets" temperature.

No, only the conscious "ghost" that owns the "machine" that contains a "nervous system," can "perceive" and "interpret" the pain signals.

Organs of special sense (E.G. ears and eyes )don't make sense of their environment, it's the central nervous system that does that.

The "central nervous system" does not "make sense" of anything.

Again, only the conscious "ghost" that owns the "machine" that contains a "central nervous system" can "make sense" of the signals being relayed to it by the non-conscious system.
_______

[Gary Childress]

Right!

In fact, brains don't "feel" anything.

The only thing that experiences and "feels" qualia such as "pain" is the "ghost" in the machine that you and BigMike are insisting doesn't exist.

Indeed, the ability to "feel" pain is a "warning system" that lets the "ghost" know when harm is occurring to the body so that the "ghost" can take measures to mitigate the harm.

In truth, the ubiquitous nervous system of the human body is a complex, fibrous-like network of pathways that give the mind's "I Am-ness" (gives the "ghost") access to the body which literally resides outside of the "ghost's mind.

In other words, just as the eyes and the ears are nothing more than "windows" that allow the "ghost" to peer out into the universe (literally outward from its own mind and into the inner dimension of God's mind - as per Berkeleyanism),...

...likewise, so is the nervous system just another type of "window" that allows the "ghost" to access, feel, and control the body that, again, is a part of the universe (a part of God's* mind) and not a part of the "ghost's" mind.

*(With God simply being the greater "GHOST" of the universe, in whose "ghostly" image our "ghost" has been created.)

While asleep, the "ghost's" consciousness (like some kind of liquid-like essence) literally "withdraws" from the nervous system and from all of those other bodily "windows" and is now directed inward.

Indeed, while asleep, the "ghost" no longer sees, or feels, or hears, or tastes, or smells any of the phenomenal features of the universe that it normally experiences while awake.

While asleep, the five senses of the "ghost's" consciousness...



...are now directed inward, wherein the "ghost's" attention and information-decoding consciousness are now involved in the process of explicating vivid dreams into existence from the fields of information that reside within the "ghost's" mind.

That's why I keep insisting (suggesting) that whatever the natural mechanism is that allows us to explicate the vivid, three-dimensional features of our dreams into existence whenever we direct our consciousness inward while sleeping,...

...is no doubt the same natural mechanism that allows us to explicate the three-dimensional features of the universe into existence (from fields of quantum information) whenever we direct our consciousness outward while awake.

And ^^^that^^^ my dear Belinda, offers a possible resolution to the "Measurement Problem" and the mystery of what it is that instigates the collapse of the quantum wave function.






First of all, I didn't write that, no, ChatGPT wrote that. I merely copy and pasted Chat's words.

And secondly, you're darn right the Block Universe doesn't apply to us.

Why?

Because the Block Universe model of reality is pure horse crap, of which I discuss further in my next post to BigMike.

There is nothing ghostly about pain or any other quale.
The nervous system's ability to perceive pain involves both the peripheral and central nervous systems. The peripheral nervous system, specifically nociceptors (pain receptors), detects harmful stimuli and transmits signals to the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord). The central nervous system then processes and interprets these signals, leading to the sensation of pain.

The "nervous system" doesn't "perceive" or "interpret" anything.

No more than a thermometer "perceives" and "interprets" temperature.

No, only the conscious "ghost" that owns the "machine" that contains a "nervous system," can "perceive" and "interpret" the pain signals.

Organs of special sense (E.G. ears and eyes )don't make sense of their environment, it's the central nervous system that does that.

The "central nervous system" does not "make sense" of anything.

Again, only the conscious "ghost" that owns the "machine" that contains a "central nervous system" can "make sense" of the signals being relayed to it by the non-conscious system.
_______

I think Seeds makes a valid point here. Presumably, the only things that feel pain (for example) are certain arrangments of atoms, such as what is found in the human nervous system. And yet, I'm not aware of there being any significant changes atomically in an amalgamation of atoms that form a human body other than their structure. There are molecules made up of carbon atoms, hydrogen atoms, etc. and at a more fundamental level, every human body is made up of protons, electrons, and neutrons--the same as any (presumably) inanimate object. An observer can't look into a body and see "pain". We don't perceive qualia in any other way than through 1st person, immediate "experience". We can't hear pain, see it, smell it, feel it with our fingers, or taste it from the outside of a being that feels it. So does that mean that pain doesn't exist? I mean, it doesn't seem to be a physical substance. And, at first glance, it doesn't seem to be present in a calculator or a food blender. So what is it? It must either be a physical thing we are as yet incapable of sensing, a non-physical thing, or maybe what has been called an "emergent" property, something that exists in a whole system, but doesn't exist when and where the system isn't present. Either way, it seems mysterious.

Maybe it would help my understanding to know what Mike means by a "ghost" in the machine when he says there is no such thing. If not an intangible entity, then what are our experiences? It seems to me that the answer is that "we don't know". And that seems like a different answer than, "it doesn't exist".

[BigMike]

There is nothing ghostly about pain or any other quale.
The nervous system's ability to perceive pain involves both the peripheral and central nervous systems. The peripheral nervous system, specifically nociceptors (pain receptors), detects harmful stimuli and transmits signals to the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord). The central nervous system then processes and interprets these signals, leading to the sensation of pain.

The "nervous system" doesn't "perceive" or "interpret" anything.

No more than a thermometer "perceives" and "interprets" temperature.

No, only the conscious "ghost" that owns the "machine" that contains a "nervous system," can "perceive" and "interpret" the pain signals.

Organs of special sense (E.G. ears and eyes )don't make sense of their environment, it's the central nervous system that does that.

The "central nervous system" does not "make sense" of anything.

Again, only the conscious "ghost" that owns the "machine" that contains a "central nervous system" can "make sense" of the signals being relayed to it by the non-conscious system.
_______

I think Seeds makes a valid point here. Presumably, the only things that feel pain (for example) are certain arrangments of atoms, such as what is found in the human nervous system. And yet, I'm not aware of there being any significant changes atomically in an amalgamation of atoms that form a human body other than their structure. There are molecules made up of carbon atoms, hydrogen atoms, etc. and at a more fundamental level, every human body is made up of protons, electrons, and neutrons--the same as any (presumably) inanimate object. An observer can't look into a body and see "pain". We don't perceive qualia in any other way than through 1st person, immediate "experience". We can't hear pain, see it, smell it, feel it with our fingers, or taste it from the outside of a being that feels it. So does that mean that pain doesn't exist? I mean, it doesn't seem to be a physical substance. And, at first glance, it doesn't seem to be present in a calculator or a food blender. So what is it? It must either be a physical thing we are as yet incapable of sensing, a non-physical thing, or maybe what has been called an "emergent" property, something that exists in a whole system, but doesn't exist when and where the system isn't present. Either way, it seems mysterious.

Maybe it would help my understanding to know what Mike means by a "ghost" in the machine when he says there is no such thing. If not an intangible entity, then what are our experiences? It seems to me that the answer is that "we don't know". And that seems like a different answer than, "it doesn't exist".

Gary, are you actually suggesting that there is a “ghost in the machine”? As in, a non-physical entity — something with no mass, no charge, no spin, no interaction via any of the four fundamental forces — that somehow does interact with your physical neurons?

Because to affect the brain, this ghost would need to push ions across membranes, generate action potentials, trigger neurotransmitter release — all of which are thoroughly physical events. And that means this "ghost" must exert measurable force, energy, or influence. But for something to be measurable, it must interact with matter through at least one known physical interaction: electromagnetic, gravitational, strong nuclear, or weak nuclear. Otherwise, it doesn’t just “elude detection” — it violates physics.

So you can’t have it both ways: you can't say it’s undetectable and say it moves atoms. If it moves atoms, it’s detectable. If it’s undetectable, it’s not moving atoms. And if it’s not moving atoms, it’s not causing your neurons to fire — which means it’s not feeling pain, joy, anger, or anything else. It’s irrelevant.

Emergence, on the other hand, doesn’t mean magic. It means structure-dependent properties — like wetness in water, or flight in a flock. Your pain exists because your nervous system is doing what it does, not because some ghost is perched on your cortex making sense of voltage spikes.

So unless you want to toss out physics wholesale, stop pretending that "we don't know" is the same as "maybe it's supernatural." It isn't. Not knowing everything yet doesn’t justify hand-waving causality.

[Gary Childress]

The "nervous system" doesn't "perceive" or "interpret" anything.

No more than a thermometer "perceives" and "interprets" temperature.

No, only the conscious "ghost" that owns the "machine" that contains a "nervous system," can "perceive" and "interpret" the pain signals.


The "central nervous system" does not "make sense" of anything.

Again, only the conscious "ghost" that owns the "machine" that contains a "central nervous system" can "make sense" of the signals being relayed to it by the non-conscious system.
_______

I think Seeds makes a valid point here. Presumably, the only things that feel pain (for example) are certain arrangments of atoms, such as what is found in the human nervous system. And yet, I'm not aware of there being any significant changes atomically in an amalgamation of atoms that form a human body other than their structure. There are molecules made up of carbon atoms, hydrogen atoms, etc. and at a more fundamental level, every human body is made up of protons, electrons, and neutrons--the same as any (presumably) inanimate object. An observer can't look into a body and see "pain". We don't perceive qualia in any other way than through 1st person, immediate "experience". We can't hear pain, see it, smell it, feel it with our fingers, or taste it from the outside of a being that feels it. So does that mean that pain doesn't exist? I mean, it doesn't seem to be a physical substance. And, at first glance, it doesn't seem to be present in a calculator or a food blender. So what is it? It must either be a physical thing we are as yet incapable of sensing, a non-physical thing, or maybe what has been called an "emergent" property, something that exists in a whole system, but doesn't exist when and where the system isn't present. Either way, it seems mysterious.

Maybe it would help my understanding to know what Mike means by a "ghost" in the machine when he says there is no such thing. If not an intangible entity, then what are our experiences? It seems to me that the answer is that "we don't know". And that seems like a different answer than, "it doesn't exist".

Gary, are you actually suggesting that there is a “ghost in the machine”? As in, a non-physical entity — something with no mass, no charge, no spin, no interaction via any of the four fundamental forces — that somehow does interact with your physical neurons?

Because to affect the brain, this ghost would need to push ions across membranes, generate action potentials, trigger neurotransmitter release — all of which are thoroughly physical events. And that means this "ghost" must exert measurable force, energy, or influence. But for something to be measurable, it must interact with matter through at least one known physical interaction: electromagnetic, gravitational, strong nuclear, or weak nuclear. Otherwise, it doesn’t just “elude detection” — it violates physics.

So you can’t have it both ways: you can't say it’s undetectable and say it moves atoms. If it moves atoms, it’s detectable. If it’s undetectable, it’s not moving atoms. And if it’s not moving atoms, it’s not causing your neurons to fire — which means it’s not feeling pain, joy, anger, or anything else. It’s irrelevant.

Emergence, on the other hand, doesn’t mean magic. It means structure-dependent properties — like wetness in water, or flight in a flock. Your pain exists because your nervous system is doing what it does, not because some ghost is perched on your cortex making sense of voltage spikes.

So unless you want to toss out physics wholesale, stop pretending that "we don't know" is the same as "maybe it's supernatural." It isn't. Not knowing everything yet doesn’t justify hand-waving causality.

I think it's a false dilemma to say that either I must throw out physics wholesale or else think that we mortals can know or can explain everything with physics. I could still study physics and at the same time say, "I don't know the full story". And it is a strawman to say that I am suggesting "supernatural" explanations. Perhaps "nature" has some aspects that can't be fully understood or studied directly through observation.

[BigMike]

I think Seeds makes a valid point here. Presumably, the only things that feel pain (for example) are certain arrangments of atoms, such as what is found in the human nervous system. And yet, I'm not aware of there being any significant changes atomically in an amalgamation of atoms that form a human body other than their structure. There are molecules made up of carbon atoms, hydrogen atoms, etc. and at a more fundamental level, every human body is made up of protons, electrons, and neutrons--the same as any (presumably) inanimate object. An observer can't look into a body and see "pain". We don't perceive qualia in any other way than through 1st person, immediate "experience". We can't hear pain, see it, smell it, feel it with our fingers, or taste it from the outside of a being that feels it. So does that mean that pain doesn't exist? I mean, it doesn't seem to be a physical substance. And, at first glance, it doesn't seem to be present in a calculator or a food blender. So what is it? It must either be a physical thing we are as yet incapable of sensing, a non-physical thing, or maybe what has been called an "emergent" property, something that exists in a whole system, but doesn't exist when and where the system isn't present. Either way, it seems mysterious.

Maybe it would help my understanding to know what Mike means by a "ghost" in the machine when he says there is no such thing. If not an intangible entity, then what are our experiences? It seems to me that the answer is that "we don't know". And that seems like a different answer than, "it doesn't exist".

Gary, are you actually suggesting that there is a “ghost in the machine”? As in, a non-physical entity — something with no mass, no charge, no spin, no interaction via any of the four fundamental forces — that somehow does interact with your physical neurons?

Because to affect the brain, this ghost would need to push ions across membranes, generate action potentials, trigger neurotransmitter release — all of which are thoroughly physical events. And that means this "ghost" must exert measurable force, energy, or influence. But for something to be measurable, it must interact with matter through at least one known physical interaction: electromagnetic, gravitational, strong nuclear, or weak nuclear. Otherwise, it doesn’t just “elude detection” — it violates physics.

So you can’t have it both ways: you can't say it’s undetectable and say it moves atoms. If it moves atoms, it’s detectable. If it’s undetectable, it’s not moving atoms. And if it’s not moving atoms, it’s not causing your neurons to fire — which means it’s not feeling pain, joy, anger, or anything else. It’s irrelevant.

Emergence, on the other hand, doesn’t mean magic. It means structure-dependent properties — like wetness in water, or flight in a flock. Your pain exists because your nervous system is doing what it does, not because some ghost is perched on your cortex making sense of voltage spikes.

So unless you want to toss out physics wholesale, stop pretending that "we don't know" is the same as "maybe it's supernatural." It isn't. Not knowing everything yet doesn’t justify hand-waving causality.

I think it's a false dilemma to say that either I must throw out physics wholesale or else think that we mortals can know or can explain everything with physics. I could still study physics and at the same time say, "I don't know the full story". And it is a strawman to say that I am suggesting "supernatural" explanations. Perhaps "nature" has some aspects that can't be fully understood or studied directly through observation.

Gary, you’re backing off into a vague fog now, and it’s not helping your point. You asked a clear question about pain and experience — and I gave a clear answer grounded in physical causality. You said maybe experience is non-physical, maybe it’s mysterious, maybe there’s more to nature than what physics can observe. And now you’re saying that doesn’t mean you’re appealing to the supernatural?

Let’s be honest here: if you say there's something causing experiences that doesn't interact via the fundamental forces, and can’t be measured or observed in principle, then you’re not just talking about some hidden corner of physics. You’re hand-waving beyond physics. That’s what people have always meant by “supernatural” — forces that influence the world without being physically grounded in it.

If your fallback is: "Maybe nature includes aspects beyond what science can detect," then fine — but that’s no longer science. That’s metaphysical speculation. And it doesn’t advance the conversation, it just stalls it.

Pain, consciousness, qualia — these are phenomena produced by the arrangement and function of matter and energy. There’s no need to reach for a mystical remainder when what’s hard to explain is simply complex, not magical.

So again: do you have an actual alternative explanation grounded in causality? Or just poetic evasions?

[Belinda]

Right!

In fact, brains don't "feel" anything.

The only thing that experiences and "feels" qualia such as "pain" is the "ghost" in the machine that you and BigMike are insisting doesn't exist.

Indeed, the ability to "feel" pain is a "warning system" that lets the "ghost" know when harm is occurring to the body so that the "ghost" can take measures to mitigate the harm.

In truth, the ubiquitous nervous system of the human body is a complex, fibrous-like network of pathways that give the mind's "I Am-ness" (gives the "ghost") access to the body which literally resides outside of the "ghost's mind.

In other words, just as the eyes and the ears are nothing more than "windows" that allow the "ghost" to peer out into the universe (literally outward from its own mind and into the inner dimension of God's mind - as per Berkeleyanism),...

...likewise, so is the nervous system just another type of "window" that allows the "ghost" to access, feel, and control the body that, again, is a part of the universe (a part of God's* mind) and not a part of the "ghost's" mind.

*(With God simply being the greater "GHOST" of the universe, in whose "ghostly" image our "ghost" has been created.)

While asleep, the "ghost's" consciousness (like some kind of liquid-like essence) literally "withdraws" from the nervous system and from all of those other bodily "windows" and is now directed inward.

Indeed, while asleep, the "ghost" no longer sees, or feels, or hears, or tastes, or smells any of the phenomenal features of the universe that it normally experiences while awake.

While asleep, the five senses of the "ghost's" consciousness...



...are now directed inward, wherein the "ghost's" attention and information-decoding consciousness are now involved in the process of explicating vivid dreams into existence from the fields of information that reside within the "ghost's" mind.

That's why I keep insisting (suggesting) that whatever the natural mechanism is that allows us to explicate the vivid, three-dimensional features of our dreams into existence whenever we direct our consciousness inward while sleeping,...

...is no doubt the same natural mechanism that allows us to explicate the three-dimensional features of the universe into existence (from fields of quantum information) whenever we direct our consciousness outward while awake.

And ^^^that^^^ my dear Belinda, offers a possible resolution to the "Measurement Problem" and the mystery of what it is that instigates the collapse of the quantum wave function.






First of all, I didn't write that, no, ChatGPT wrote that. I merely copy and pasted Chat's words.

And secondly, you're darn right the Block Universe doesn't apply to us.

Why?

Because the Block Universe model of reality is pure horse crap, of which I discuss further in my next post to BigMike.

There is nothing ghostly about pain or any other quale.
The nervous system's ability to perceive pain involves both the peripheral and central nervous systems. The peripheral nervous system, specifically nociceptors (pain receptors), detects harmful stimuli and transmits signals to the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord). The central nervous system then processes and interprets these signals, leading to the sensation of pain.

The "nervous system" doesn't "perceive" or "interpret" anything.

No more than a thermometer "perceives" and "interprets" temperature.

No, only the conscious "ghost" that owns the "machine" that contains a "nervous system," can "perceive" and "interpret" the pain signals.

Organs of special sense (E.G. ears and eyes )don't make sense of their environment, it's the central nervous system that does that.

The "central nervous system" does not "make sense" of anything.

Again, only the conscious "ghost" that owns the "machine" that contains a "central nervous system" can "make sense" of the signals being relayed to it by the non-conscious system.
_______

[Belinda]

There is nothing ghostly about pain or any other quale.
The nervous system's ability to perceive pain involves both the peripheral and central nervous systems. The peripheral nervous system, specifically nociceptors (pain receptors), detects harmful stimuli and transmits signals to the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord). The central nervous system then processes and interprets these signals, leading to the sensation of pain.

The "nervous system" doesn't "perceive" or "interpret" anything.

No more than a thermometer "perceives" and "interprets" temperature.

No, only the conscious "ghost" that owns the "machine" that contains a "nervous system," can "perceive" and "interpret" the pain signals.

Organs of special sense (E.G. ears and eyes )don't make sense of their environment, it's the central nervous system that does that.

The "central nervous system" does not "make sense" of anything.

Again, only the conscious "ghost" that owns the "machine" that contains a "central nervous system" can "make sense" of the signals being relayed to it by the non-conscious system.
_______

Machines don't have nervous systems.Nervous systems support qualia.
The ghost that you claim exists is an unnecessary hypothesis that does no work.

[Ben JS]

My two cents, given in good faith:

An observer can't look into a body and see "pain". We don't perceive qualia in any other way than through 1st person, immediate "experience". [...] So does that mean that pain doesn't exist? I mean, it doesn't seem to be a physical substance.

The experience of pain, as you rightly say, is qualia - subjective.

However, pain has a 'brainprint' -
physical characteristics / activity in specific regions of the brain,
that trigger throughout the process of experiencing pain.

"The pain matrix refers to a network of brain regions that are activated during the perception of pain".

This is an insight of neuroscience:

Pain manifests physically in brain activity through a complex network of regions that process sensory, emotional, and cognitive aspects of pain.
Advanced neuroimaging techniques like functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) and positron emission tomography (PET) have been instrumental in mapping these brain responses.

Key Brain Regions Involved in Pain Processing

• Primary Somatosensory Cortex (S1)
  Located in the postcentral gyrus, S1 is responsible for processing the sensory aspects of pain, such as location, intensity, and quality.

• Secondary Somatosensory Cortex (S2)
  S2 further processes sensory information from S1, contributing to the perception of pain intensity and quality.

• Anterior Cingulate Cortex (ACC)
  The ACC is involved in the emotional and affective components of pain, including the unpleasantness and motivation to respond to pain.

• Insular Cortex
  The insula plays a crucial role in integrating sensory and emotional information, contributing to the subjective experience of pain.

• Prefrontal Cortex (PFC)
  The PFC is involved in higher-order processing, including attention, decision-making, and modulation of pain perception.

• Thalamus
  The thalamus acts as a relay station, transmitting sensory information from the body to various cortical areas.

Imaging Pain: fMRI and PET

Functional neuroimaging techniques like fMRI and PET have been pivotal in identifying brain regions activated during pain. For instance, fMRI studies have shown that noxious stimuli activate the ACC, bilateral anterior insula, and posterior insula/SII. These regions are part of the "pain matrix," a network consistently activated during pain experiences.

Now, not all forms of pain neatly fit this picture - namely the atypical presentations of Central Pain Syndrome (CPS).
However, neuroscience is an ever developing field, and this type of pain may eventually be completely identified / defined / recognizable -
as it too has physical counterparts.
-

Consciousness, like any particular sense, is deeply tied to the body.
Sight to eyes, taste to tongue etc.

Even though our experience is subjective qualia, we can test how impacts to our body directly correlate to particular senses.
If eyes are damaged, sight is damaged. If ears are damaged, hearing is damaged.

What are we conscious of, if not the experiences of the body?

[Ben JS]

If someone is a proponent of hardcore determinism, so much so that they deny the existence of free will, then wouldn't the idea of a "block universe" be a perfect explanation for the type of determinism they are promoting?

It's called hard determinism, and that it denies free will is inherent to the position.
There is no degree of hard determinism that allows free will.
When you say 'perfect', what you mean is consistent.
Block universe, regardless of your emotional reactions to it, is consistent with the position of hard determinism.

It's not a convenient coincidence that hard determinists hold positions that are consistent with their other beliefs,
it's a product of them seeking to build a framework of beliefs that are non-contradictory -
it's called integrity, you should look into it.

'hardcore determinism' isn't a thing, and a veiled insult implying that hard determinists are fanatics.

Really transparent, and unbecoming.

===

In fact, brains don't "feel" anything.

The only thing that experiences and "feels" qualia such as "pain" is the "ghost" in the machine

Materialism is a form of philosophical monism according to which matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and all things, including mental states and consciousness, are results of material interactions of material things. According to philosophical materialism, mind and consciousness are caused by physical processes, such as the neurochemistry of the human brain and nervous system, without which they cannot exist.

According to materialism, there is no ghost in the machine.
If you have a problem with this concept,
it's not the people who you insult where the issue lies,
but your misgivings relating to materialism -
but that wont stop you from being disrespectful.