What is the concept of God philosophically?

[Belinda]

My reason is perfect, so I add good will to it, and behold, belief is still painfully inadequate.

Good will is not enough unless the good will is compounded with reason . Reason itself as a Platonic Form is unattainable and we have to make do with the human version. Good intentions are not enough without humility.

Humility: " I am no the thing I should be. I am no even the thing I could be." (sort of quoted)

Reason first, goodwill after. The opposite is useless, as is the compound. It's belief before reason.

PS Yes, my good will is totally subjectively given. It cannot be given objectively. It is a thought experiment in which the fundamentalist God of the Bible still fails to be Love, even if the good will were founded. Humility is irrelevant to the objective failure of any fundamentalist God, i.e. one limited to the text, to be Love.

During the past week or so I read a discussion of Apollonian and Dionysian influences into Christianity that the old Israelite Jahweh of the Old Testament is mostly all passionate goodwill, while the God of Jesus is a God of reason because of much Greek influence. I liked that interpretation of the Christian God, and I think the Apollonian and the Dionysian are compatible.

I guess you need to edit your paragraph about the primacy of reason or of passion in your belief; if your goodwill is "totally subjectively given" then it's Dionysian or ,as the cliche goes , it comes from the heart. But you also say "Reason first, goodwill after. The opposite is useless, as is the compound. It's belief before reason."

I sincerely would like to know what you mean. Moreover, why may a compound of passion and reason be impossible ? This is a psychological not a philosophical question. The question is like asking 'can I will that my emotional reactions become less reactive and more reflective, and also the converse' ?

(I use the term 'passion' in the archaic sense of 'feelings'. The word 'passion' in that sense was more precise.)

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Good will is not enough unless the good will is compounded with reason . Reason itself as a Platonic Form is unattainable and we have to make do with the human version. Good intentions are not enough without humility.

Humility: " I am no the thing I should be. I am no even the thing I could be." (sort of quoted)

Reason first, goodwill after. The opposite is useless, as is the compound. It's belief before reason.

PS Yes, my good will is totally subjectively given. It cannot be given objectively. It is a thought experiment in which the fundamentalist God of the Bible still fails to be Love, even if the good will were founded. Humility is irrelevant to the objective failure of any fundamentalist God, i.e. one limited to the text, to be Love.

During the past week or so I read a discussion of Apollonian and Dionysian influences into Christianity that the old Israelite Jahweh of the Old Testament is mostly all passionate goodwill, while the God of Jesus is a God of reason because of much Greek influence. I liked that interpretation of the Christian God, and I think the Apollonian and the Dionysian are compatible.

I guess you need to edit your paragraph about the primacy of reason or of passion in your belief; if your goodwill is "totally subjectively given" then it's Dionysian or ,as the cliche goes , it comes from the heart. But you also say "Reason first, goodwill after. The opposite is useless, as is the compound. It's belief before reason."

I sincerely would like to know what you mean. Moreover, why may a compound of passion and reason be impossible ? This is a psychological not a philosophical question. The question is like asking 'can I will that my emotional reactions become less reactive and more reflective, and also the converse' ?

Thank you Belinda. Full stop. And I don't need to edit anything. I meant what I said. But I obviously need to expand upon it.

Orphic corruption of the raw Dionysian gave us Jesus. Via Jahweh. The austere, all conquering desert war God. Returned to in 'Revelations' and Allah. I find Nietzsche's critique compelling. We need the full spectrum, the continuous line of the dichotomy, for art, philosophy and psychology.

What I mean by reason first, is applied to religious claim and believing in general, belief. Surgically, ruthlessly, without pity. Without good will. Disinterested. Honest. Whilst being fully aware of the passions. The primal, visceral, perichoretic forces that subvert reason with belief. One should certainly exercise knowledge, i.e. walk with it, take it out for a walk, with good will, Rogerianly, to the self, to all others. I believe. In willing reflective gratitude, the key to happiness. To joy. Good passions. And willing reactive anger at social injustice. To transcend tragedy.

[Belinda]

Reason first, goodwill after. The opposite is useless, as is the compound. It's belief before reason.

PS Yes, my good will is totally subjectively given. It cannot be given objectively. It is a thought experiment in which the fundamentalist God of the Bible still fails to be Love, even if the good will were founded. Humility is irrelevant to the objective failure of any fundamentalist God, i.e. one limited to the text, to be Love.

During the past week or so I read a discussion of Apollonian and Dionysian influences into Christianity that the old Israelite Jahweh of the Old Testament is mostly all passionate goodwill, while the God of Jesus is a God of reason because of much Greek influence. I liked that interpretation of the Christian God, and I think the Apollonian and the Dionysian are compatible.

I guess you need to edit your paragraph about the primacy of reason or of passion in your belief; if your goodwill is "totally subjectively given" then it's Dionysian or ,as the cliche goes , it comes from the heart. But you also say "Reason first, goodwill after. The opposite is useless, as is the compound. It's belief before reason."

I sincerely would like to know what you mean. Moreover, why may a compound of passion and reason be impossible ? This is a psychological not a philosophical question. The question is like asking 'can I will that my emotional reactions become less reactive and more reflective, and also the converse' ?

Thank you Belinda. Full stop. And I don't need to edit anything. I meant what I said. But I obviously need to expand upon it.

Orphic corruption of the raw Dionysian gave us Jesus. Via Jahweh. The austere, all conquering desert war God. Returned to in 'Revelations' and Allah. I find Nietzsche's critique compelling. We need the full spectrum, the continuous line of the dichotomy, for art, philosophy and psychology.

What I mean by reason first, is applied to religious claim and believing in general, belief. Surgically, ruthlessly, without pity. Without good will. Disinterested. Honest. Whilst being fully aware of the passions. The primal, visceral, perichoretic forces that subvert reason with belief. One should certainly exercise knowledge, i.e. walk with it, take it out for a walk, with good will, Rogerianly, to the self, to all others. I believe. In willing reflective gratitude, the key to happiness. To joy. Good passions. And willing reactive anger at social injustice. To transcend tragedy.

Your response has a joyful Dionysian tone and effect whatever you rationally intended

Anyway, thanks so much for your analysis which has given new leads.

First I needed to look up Orphic: and found Shakespeare's opinion:
Orpheus with his lute made trees,
And the mountain tops that freeze,
Bow themselves when he did sing:
To his music plants and flowers
Ever sprung; as sun and showers
There had made a lasting spring.
Every thing that heard him play,
Even the billows of the sea,
Hung their heads, and then lay by.
In sweet music is such art,
Killing care and grief of heart
Fall asleep, or hearing, die.

Then I looked up Rogerianly:

AI Overview
Learn more
Rogerian Centered Therapy: Who Can It Help, How It Works
"Rogerian" can refer to two related concepts: Rogerian therapy, a client-centered approach to psychotherapy, and Rogerian argument, a persuasive strategy focused on empathy, understanding, and finding common ground.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

During the past week or so I read a discussion of Apollonian and Dionysian influences into Christianity that the old Israelite Jahweh of the Old Testament is mostly all passionate goodwill, while the God of Jesus is a God of reason because of much Greek influence. I liked that interpretation of the Christian God, and I think the Apollonian and the Dionysian are compatible.

I guess you need to edit your paragraph about the primacy of reason or of passion in your belief; if your goodwill is "totally subjectively given" then it's Dionysian or ,as the cliche goes , it comes from the heart. But you also say "Reason first, goodwill after. The opposite is useless, as is the compound. It's belief before reason."

I sincerely would like to know what you mean. Moreover, why may a compound of passion and reason be impossible ? This is a psychological not a philosophical question. The question is like asking 'can I will that my emotional reactions become less reactive and more reflective, and also the converse' ?

Thank you Belinda. Full stop. And I don't need to edit anything. I meant what I said. But I obviously need to expand upon it.

Orphic corruption of the raw Dionysian gave us Jesus. Via Jahweh. The austere, all conquering desert war God. Returned to in 'Revelations' and Allah. I find Nietzsche's critique compelling. We need the full spectrum, the continuous line of the dichotomy, for art, philosophy and psychology.

What I mean by reason first, is applied to religious claim and believing in general, belief. Surgically, ruthlessly, without pity. Without good will. Disinterested. Honest. Whilst being fully aware of the passions. The primal, visceral, perichoretic forces that subvert reason with belief. One should certainly exercise knowledge, i.e. walk with it, take it out for a walk, with good will, Rogerianly, to the self, to all others. I believe. In willing reflective gratitude, the key to happiness. To joy. Good passions. And willing reactive anger at social injustice. To transcend tragedy.

Your response has a joyful Dionysian tone and effect whatever you rationally intended

Anyway, thanks so much for your analysis which has given new leads.

First I needed to look up Orphic: and found Shakespeare's opinion:
Orpheus with his lute made trees,
And the mountain tops that freeze,
Bow themselves when he did sing:
To his music plants and flowers
Ever sprung; as sun and showers
There had made a lasting spring.
Every thing that heard him play,
Even the billows of the sea,
Hung their heads, and then lay by.
In sweet music is such art,
Killing care and grief of heart
Fall asleep, or hearing, die.

Then I looked up Rogerianly:

AI Overview
Learn more
Rogerian Centered Therapy: Who Can It Help, How It Works
"Rogerian" can refer to two related concepts: Rogerian therapy, a client-centered approach to psychotherapy, and Rogerian argument, a persuasive strategy focused on empathy, understanding, and finding common ground.

Very nice Belinda. And yes, unexpected. Your beholder's share. Music is certainly at the meeting of the two. Most Rogerian!

[Belinda]

Thank you Belinda. Full stop. And I don't need to edit anything. I meant what I said. But I obviously need to expand upon it.

Orphic corruption of the raw Dionysian gave us Jesus. Via Jahweh. The austere, all conquering desert war God. Returned to in 'Revelations' and Allah. I find Nietzsche's critique compelling. We need the full spectrum, the continuous line of the dichotomy, for art, philosophy and psychology.

What I mean by reason first, is applied to religious claim and believing in general, belief. Surgically, ruthlessly, without pity. Without good will. Disinterested. Honest. Whilst being fully aware of the passions. The primal, visceral, perichoretic forces that subvert reason with belief. One should certainly exercise knowledge, i.e. walk with it, take it out for a walk, with good will, Rogerianly, to the self, to all others. I believe. In willing reflective gratitude, the key to happiness. To joy. Good passions. And willing reactive anger at social injustice. To transcend tragedy.

Your response has a joyful Dionysian tone and effect whatever you rationally intended

Anyway, thanks so much for your analysis which has given new leads.

First I needed to look up Orphic: and found Shakespeare's opinion:
Orpheus with his lute made trees,
And the mountain tops that freeze,
Bow themselves when he did sing:
To his music plants and flowers
Ever sprung; as sun and showers
There had made a lasting spring.
Every thing that heard him play,
Even the billows of the sea,
Hung their heads, and then lay by.
In sweet music is such art,
Killing care and grief of heart
Fall asleep, or hearing, die.

Then I looked up Rogerianly:

AI Overview
Learn more
Rogerian Centered Therapy: Who Can It Help, How It Works
"Rogerian" can refer to two related concepts: Rogerian therapy, a client-centered approach to psychotherapy, and Rogerian argument, a persuasive strategy focused on empathy, understanding, and finding common ground.

Very nice Belinda. And yes, unexpected. Your beholder's share. Music is certainly at the meeting of the two. Most Rogerian!

Yes, music is odd like that, Minus lyrics and 'programme music' it has a foot in both streams.
I do feel however that Jesus is more Apollonian than Dionysian but I suppose that is because I want to think so. I must be a Calvinist I suppose! The Catholic churches are a lot more fun

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Your response has a joyful Dionysian tone and effect whatever you rationally intended

Anyway, thanks so much for your analysis which has given new leads.

First I needed to look up Orphic: and found Shakespeare's opinion:
Orpheus with his lute made trees,
And the mountain tops that freeze,
Bow themselves when he did sing:
To his music plants and flowers
Ever sprung; as sun and showers
There had made a lasting spring.
Every thing that heard him play,
Even the billows of the sea,
Hung their heads, and then lay by.
In sweet music is such art,
Killing care and grief of heart
Fall asleep, or hearing, die.

Then I looked up Rogerianly:

AI Overview
Learn more
Rogerian Centered Therapy: Who Can It Help, How It Works
"Rogerian" can refer to two related concepts: Rogerian therapy, a client-centered approach to psychotherapy, and Rogerian argument, a persuasive strategy focused on empathy, understanding, and finding common ground.

Very nice Belinda. And yes, unexpected. Your beholder's share. Music is certainly at the meeting of the two. Most Rogerian!

Yes, music is odd like that, Minus lyrics and 'programme music' it has a foot in both streams.
I do feel however that Jesus is more Apollonian than Dionysian but I suppose that is because I want to think so.

I was at a Gavin Bryars concert on Saturday evening (what a weekend! The Scottish Play the night before), at St. Mary de Castro's church, Leicester. Superbly avant garde, and the second half was a performance of 'Jesus’ Blood Never Failed Me, Yet'. Hugely sentimentally powerful, poignantly existentially beautiful, as is the church. Itself a staggering ongoing historical work of 1100 years. And I'm a post-Christian, neo-atheist (the worst kind). What music would dissolve Israel and Gaza? At Stalingrad, toward the end, of the greatest, most appalling battle in human history, the Russians had a concert in the ruins and played Mendelsohn. A German Jewish composer. A lone German soldier appeared on the ridge of the amphitheatre of rubble and asked, in Russian, would they play some more please. My God.

Our interaction has even calmed the trolls!

[Belinda]

Very nice Belinda. And yes, unexpected. Your beholder's share. Music is certainly at the meeting of the two. Most Rogerian!

Yes, music is odd like that, Minus lyrics and 'programme music' it has a foot in both streams.
I do feel however that Jesus is more Apollonian than Dionysian but I suppose that is because I want to think so.

I was at a Gavin Bryars concert on Saturday evening (what a weekend! The Scottish Play the night before), at St. Mary de Castro's church, Leicester. Superbly avant garde, and the second half was a performance of 'Jesus’ Blood Never Failed Me, Yet'. Hugely sentimentally powerful, poignantly existentially beautiful, as is the church. Itself a staggering historical work. And I'm a post-Christian, neo-atheist (the worst kind). What music would dissolve Israel and Gaza?

My guess is any genre from popular culture to 'serious music'. However lyrics should be suspected of bias towards one side or the other. Also it does help a lot if people are accustomed to the idiom of music, and to the idiom of the particular genre.
I suppose that drumming is the most abstract the most like the blooded heart beat which is common to all people of every ethnicity. When dancing is combined with heard rhythm, then you have a universal medium for sympathy.
In the Bible, King David is depicted dancing before the Ark of the Covenant. This act of worship is described as a joyous celebration of the Ark's arrival in Jerusalem. He danced with all his might, even wearing a priestly garment, and his actions were observed by Michal, the daughter of Saul, who was filled with contempt for his behavior.

David's dancing was cultural , unfortunately, as he did it before the Arc presumably in a big tent.
The context of the abstract dance + heard rhythm is hard to arrange as contexts are seldom culture -free.
Maybe a folk festival like Glastonbury is more culture -free than other venues.

I regret not to empathise more with your Scottish Play and Gavin Bryars experiences. I am not musically educated.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Yes, music is odd like that, Minus lyrics and 'programme music' it has a foot in both streams.
I do feel however that Jesus is more Apollonian than Dionysian but I suppose that is because I want to think so.

I was at a Gavin Bryars concert on Saturday evening (what a weekend! The Scottish Play the night before), at St. Mary de Castro's church, Leicester. Superbly avant garde, and the second half was a performance of 'Jesus’ Blood Never Failed Me, Yet'. Hugely sentimentally powerful, poignantly existentially beautiful, as is the church. Itself a staggering historical work. And I'm a post-Christian, neo-atheist (the worst kind). What music would dissolve Israel and Gaza?

My guess is any genre from popular culture to 'serious music'. However lyrics should be suspected of bias towards one side or the other. Also it does help a lot if people are accustomed to the idiom of music, and to the idiom of the particular genre.
I suppose that drumming is the most abstract the most like the blooded heart beat which is common to all people of every ethnicity. When dancing is combined with heard rhythm, then you have a universal medium for sympathy.
In the Bible, King David is depicted dancing before the Ark of the Covenant. This act of worship is described as a joyous celebration of the Ark's arrival in Jerusalem. He danced with all his might, even wearing a priestly garment, and his actions were observed by Michal, the daughter of Saul, who was filled with contempt for his behavior.

David's dancing was cultural , unfortunately, as he did it before the Arc presumably in a big tent.
The context of the abstract dance + heard rhythm is hard to arrange as contexts are seldom culture -free.
Maybe a folk festival like Glastonbury is more culture -free than other venues.

I regret not to empathise more with your Scottish Play and Gavin Bryars experiences. I am not musically educated.

Neither am I Belinda, I just have broad (superficial?) tastes. Israel & Gaza? A voices only choir? As by Ligeti. Lux Aeterna etc from 2001: A Space Odyssey https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gKQVrIdw5w. And drums, yes. Islam is significantly hostile to music of course. Although the male only call to prayer can be most haunting.

I suspect David's exuberance led to exposure of his privates and/or derriere! He did soothe Saul's violent mood swings by harp of course.

Glasto seems totally culture-bound to me! : )

PS It's quiet. Too quiet! Where are all the trolls?

[ThinkOfOne]

Jesus' grandiosity. Jesus assertions about Jesus.

The Jesus character claimed, asserted,
to forgive sins, Mark 2:1-12, John 8:1-11,
he asserted that the ultimate purpose of his life was to “give his life as a ransom for many”, Mark 10:45, (i.e. his suicide mission),
authority over the sabbath, Mark 2:27, Matthew 12:8-24,
and the Law in general, Matthew 23:23-24,
to grant eternal life, John 5:21-22, 6:40, 11:25-26, 14:6,
unity with God the Father, John John 8:58-59, 10:30-31,
divine attributes, John 8:58, John 21:17, Matthew 28:18, Matthew 28:20,
sinless perfection John 8:46,
divine miraculousness John 10:38,
worship Matthew 8:2, 14:33, 15:25, 28:17, John 9:38.

Paraphrased from What Did Jesus Say About Himself? A Complete Overview https://www.christianwebsite.com/what-d ... e_vignette

Over half being claimed multiple generations after their setting by the school of 'John', whoever they were.

Other grandiose claims were made on his behalf by Paul and 'John' at least.

No devout Christian is ignorant of any of this.

I asked Faithfind 'Chat with the Word' on +27 65 802 1982 on WhatsApp, via https://www.faithfind.org/

What supernatural claims are made by Jesus in the gospels?

1. *Son of God*: Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, affirming His divine nature (John 10:36).
2. *Forgiveness of Sins*: He declared the authority to forgive sins, which was considered a divine prerogative (Mark 2:5-7).
3. *Resurrection*: Jesus foretold His own resurrection from the dead (Matthew 16:21).
4. *Eternal Life*: He promised eternal life to those who believe in Him (John 3:16).
5. *Miracles*: Jesus performed numerous miracles, like turning water into wine (John 2:1-11) and feeding the 5,000 (Matthew 14:13-21).
6. *Walking on Water*: He walked on water, demonstrating His mastery over nature (Matthew 14:25).
7. *Authority over Demons*: Jesus cast out demons, showing His power over spiritual forces (Mark 1:34).
8. *Judgment*: He claimed the authority to judge humanity (John 5:22).
9. *Healing the Sick*: Jesus healed countless people from various diseases and disabilities (Matthew 4:23).
10. *Raising the Dead*: He raised people from the dead, including Lazarus (John 11:43-44).
11. *Transfiguration*: Jesus was transfigured, revealing His divine glory to His disciples (Matthew 17:1-2).
12. *Ascension*: After His resurrection, Jesus ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9-11).
13. *Omniscience*: Jesus demonstrated knowledge of people's thoughts and pasts, such as with the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:17-19).
14. *Claim to Preexistence*: He claimed to exist before Abraham, indicating His eternal nature (John 8:58).
15. *Control over Nature*: Jesus calmed a storm with His command, showing His authority over the elements (Mark 4:39).
16. *Prophecy Fulfillment*: Jesus fulfilled numerous Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah, such as being born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:22-23).
17. *Unity with the Father*: Jesus claimed a unique unity with God the Father (John 10:30).
18. *Ultimate Sacrifice*: He predicted His sacrificial death and resurrection for the salvation of humanity (Mark 10:33-34).
19. *Authority to Give Life*: Jesus claimed the authority to give eternal life to those who believe in Him (John 10:28).
20. *Promise of the Holy Spirit*: He promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide and comfort believers (John 14:16-17).
21. *His Return*: Jesus foretold His second coming in glory to establish God's kingdom (Matthew 24:30).
22. *Transcendence Over Time*: Jesus spoke of His return and the end times, indicating His authority over history (Matthew 24:36-44).
23. *Spiritual Insight*: He possessed deep spiritual insight, understanding the hearts and motives of people (John 2:24-25).
24. *Authority to Interpret the Law*: Jesus reinterpreted the Law with divine authority, emphasizing its true spirit (Matthew 5:17-48).
25. *Promise of Rest*: Jesus offered rest for the weary, highlighting His ability to provide spiritual peace (Matthew 11:28-30).
26. *Power over Sin*: He lived a sinless life, demonstrating His holiness and divine nature (1 Peter 2:22).
27. *Unity with Believers*: Jesus prayed for unity among His followers, reflecting His desire for a spiritual bond (John 17:20-23).
...

I can keep asking.

I then asked, 'What supernatural claims are made for Jesus in the epistles?'

1. *Preexistence and Creation*: Jesus is described as existing before all things and being the agent of creation (Colossians 1:16-17).
2. *Divine Nature*: He is affirmed as the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being (Hebrews 1:3).
3. *Sustainer of the Universe*: Jesus is said to uphold all things by His powerful word (Hebrews 1:3).
4. *Head of the Church*: He is the head of the Church, His body (Ephesians 1:22-23).
5. *Reconciler*: Through Jesus, God reconciles all things to Himself, making peace through His blood (Colossians 1:20).

Trolls will ask why, what, how, can you be more specific, what do you mean, yeah but.

As Jesus was just a man at most, if all of this was said by him and his followers, it could not be more grandiose.

To question that, even more so.

Let's see.

Earlier I posted the following:

You made a number of assertions as to what you believe Jesus had in mind. I had fully understood that you believe much of the mythology that the NT writers wrapped around Jesus' words. To understand what Jesus had in mind, you need to understand HIS words.

Jesus repeatedly emphasized the point that He spoke in parables. That is, He used figurative language. Despite this, the vast majority, if not all, Christians take statements [attributed to Jesus] ... literally and out of context ...because they believe it justifies them in claiming [Jesus said things about Himself] which [were] not His intent at all.

There's a distinction that needs to be made between what Jesus said about Himself and what Christianity says about Him. You keep referring to "[Jesus'] claims" whilst referring to Christianity's claims about Jesus. They are NOT one and the same. Try going through my earlier posts with that in mind. Hopefully the penny will drop for you.

Presumably your post is in response to the following:

By all means, make your best case using the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His Gospel. Jesus preached His Gospel from the beginning of His ministry through the crucifixion. Let's see if you can back up your assertions.

This is the best case you can make? Seems you continue to fail to make that distinction, despite your earlier claims otherwise. If you understood the distinction, why are you using a Christian website and Christian Chat engine as your sources?

Let's look at one example from your list:
1. *Son of God*: Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, affirming His divine nature (John 10:36).

In no way can this reasonably be taken as Jesus claiming to be literally the son of God.

It's a simple metaphor. Jesus calls for all of His followers to make themselves sons of God as He was a "son of God".

Everyone who has a been “born from above” has been born of God AND therefore has God as their “heavenly Father” AND therefore are “sons of God”. It’s a really simple metaphor.

Matthew 5:9“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Luke 6:35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
John 12:36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.
Matthew 6:26“Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them.

What's more, Christians often invoke the metaphor in reference to themselves: calling themselves "a child of God"; calling God "Father". It's ridiculous that so many of them believe that Jesus is claiming to be literally the son of God when He invokes the same metaphor.

This is the best case you can make? Mindlessly paraphrasing a Christian website and pasting answers from Christian Chat engine?

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Jesus' grandiosity. Jesus assertions about Jesus.

The Jesus character claimed, asserted,
to forgive sins, Mark 2:1-12, John 8:1-11,
he asserted that the ultimate purpose of his life was to “give his life as a ransom for many”, Mark 10:45, (i.e. his suicide mission),
authority over the sabbath, Mark 2:27, Matthew 12:8-24,
and the Law in general, Matthew 23:23-24,
to grant eternal life, John 5:21-22, 6:40, 11:25-26, 14:6,
unity with God the Father, John John 8:58-59, 10:30-31,
divine attributes, John 8:58, John 21:17, Matthew 28:18, Matthew 28:20,
sinless perfection John 8:46,
divine miraculousness John 10:38,
worship Matthew 8:2, 14:33, 15:25, 28:17, John 9:38.

Paraphrased from What Did Jesus Say About Himself? A Complete Overview https://www.christianwebsite.com/what-d ... e_vignette

Over half being claimed multiple generations after their setting by the school of 'John', whoever they were.

Other grandiose claims were made on his behalf by Paul and 'John' at least.

No devout Christian is ignorant of any of this.

I asked Faithfind 'Chat with the Word' on +27 65 802 1982 on WhatsApp, via https://www.faithfind.org/

What supernatural claims are made by Jesus in the gospels?

1. *Son of God*: Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, affirming His divine nature (John 10:36).
2. *Forgiveness of Sins*: He declared the authority to forgive sins, which was considered a divine prerogative (Mark 2:5-7).
3. *Resurrection*: Jesus foretold His own resurrection from the dead (Matthew 16:21).
4. *Eternal Life*: He promised eternal life to those who believe in Him (John 3:16).
5. *Miracles*: Jesus performed numerous miracles, like turning water into wine (John 2:1-11) and feeding the 5,000 (Matthew 14:13-21).
6. *Walking on Water*: He walked on water, demonstrating His mastery over nature (Matthew 14:25).
7. *Authority over Demons*: Jesus cast out demons, showing His power over spiritual forces (Mark 1:34).
8. *Judgment*: He claimed the authority to judge humanity (John 5:22).
9. *Healing the Sick*: Jesus healed countless people from various diseases and disabilities (Matthew 4:23).
10. *Raising the Dead*: He raised people from the dead, including Lazarus (John 11:43-44).
11. *Transfiguration*: Jesus was transfigured, revealing His divine glory to His disciples (Matthew 17:1-2).
12. *Ascension*: After His resurrection, Jesus ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9-11).
13. *Omniscience*: Jesus demonstrated knowledge of people's thoughts and pasts, such as with the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:17-19).
14. *Claim to Preexistence*: He claimed to exist before Abraham, indicating His eternal nature (John 8:58).
15. *Control over Nature*: Jesus calmed a storm with His command, showing His authority over the elements (Mark 4:39).
16. *Prophecy Fulfillment*: Jesus fulfilled numerous Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah, such as being born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:22-23).
17. *Unity with the Father*: Jesus claimed a unique unity with God the Father (John 10:30).
18. *Ultimate Sacrifice*: He predicted His sacrificial death and resurrection for the salvation of humanity (Mark 10:33-34).
19. *Authority to Give Life*: Jesus claimed the authority to give eternal life to those who believe in Him (John 10:28).
20. *Promise of the Holy Spirit*: He promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide and comfort believers (John 14:16-17).
21. *His Return*: Jesus foretold His second coming in glory to establish God's kingdom (Matthew 24:30).
22. *Transcendence Over Time*: Jesus spoke of His return and the end times, indicating His authority over history (Matthew 24:36-44).
23. *Spiritual Insight*: He possessed deep spiritual insight, understanding the hearts and motives of people (John 2:24-25).
24. *Authority to Interpret the Law*: Jesus reinterpreted the Law with divine authority, emphasizing its true spirit (Matthew 5:17-48).
25. *Promise of Rest*: Jesus offered rest for the weary, highlighting His ability to provide spiritual peace (Matthew 11:28-30).
26. *Power over Sin*: He lived a sinless life, demonstrating His holiness and divine nature (1 Peter 2:22).
27. *Unity with Believers*: Jesus prayed for unity among His followers, reflecting His desire for a spiritual bond (John 17:20-23).
...

I can keep asking.

I then asked, 'What supernatural claims are made for Jesus in the epistles?'

1. *Preexistence and Creation*: Jesus is described as existing before all things and being the agent of creation (Colossians 1:16-17).
2. *Divine Nature*: He is affirmed as the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being (Hebrews 1:3).
3. *Sustainer of the Universe*: Jesus is said to uphold all things by His powerful word (Hebrews 1:3).
4. *Head of the Church*: He is the head of the Church, His body (Ephesians 1:22-23).
5. *Reconciler*: Through Jesus, God reconciles all things to Himself, making peace through His blood (Colossians 1:20).

Trolls will ask why, what, how, can you be more specific, what do you mean, yeah but.

As Jesus was just a man at most, if all of this was said by him and his followers, it could not be more grandiose.

To question that, even more so.

Let's see.

Earlier I posted the following:

You made a number of assertions as to what you believe Jesus had in mind. I had fully understood that you believe much of the mythology that the NT writers wrapped around Jesus' words. To understand what Jesus had in mind, you need to understand HIS words.

Jesus repeatedly emphasized the point that He spoke in parables. That is, He used figurative language. Despite this, the vast majority, if not all, Christians take statements [attributed to Jesus] ... literally and out of context ...because they believe it justifies them in claiming [Jesus said things about Himself] which [were] not His intent at all.

There's a distinction that needs to be made between what Jesus said about Himself and what Christianity says about Him. You keep referring to "[Jesus'] claims" whilst referring to Christianity's claims about Jesus. They are NOT one and the same. Try going through my earlier posts with that in mind. Hopefully the penny will drop for you.

Presumably your post is in response to the following:

By all means, make your best case using the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His Gospel. Jesus preached His Gospel from the beginning of His ministry through the crucifixion. Let's see if you can back up your assertions.

This is the best case you can make? Seems you continue to fail to make that distinction, despite your earlier claims otherwise. If you understood the distinction, why are you using a Christian website and Christian Chat engine as your sources?

Let's look at one example from your list:
1. *Son of God*: Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, affirming His divine nature (John 10:36).

In no way can this reasonably be taken as Jesus claiming to be literally the son of God.

It's a simple metaphor. Jesus calls for all of His followers to make themselves sons of God as He was a "son of God".

Everyone who has a been “born from above” has been born of God AND therefore has God as their “heavenly Father” AND therefore are “sons of God”. It’s a really simple metaphor.

Matthew 5:9“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Luke 6:35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
John 12:36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.
Matthew 6:26“Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them.

What's more, Christians often invoke the metaphor in reference to themselves: calling themselves "a child of God"; calling God "Father". It's ridiculous that so many of them believe that Jesus is claiming to be literally the son of God when He invokes the same metaphor.

This is the best case you can make? Mindlessly paraphrasing a Christian website and pasting answers from Christian Chat engine?

Sorry, what's your point? Without any projected ad hominem self hate?

[ThinkOfOne]

Jesus' grandiosity. Jesus assertions about Jesus.

The Jesus character claimed, asserted,
to forgive sins, Mark 2:1-12, John 8:1-11,
he asserted that the ultimate purpose of his life was to “give his life as a ransom for many”, Mark 10:45, (i.e. his suicide mission),
authority over the sabbath, Mark 2:27, Matthew 12:8-24,
and the Law in general, Matthew 23:23-24,
to grant eternal life, John 5:21-22, 6:40, 11:25-26, 14:6,
unity with God the Father, John John 8:58-59, 10:30-31,
divine attributes, John 8:58, John 21:17, Matthew 28:18, Matthew 28:20,
sinless perfection John 8:46,
divine miraculousness John 10:38,
worship Matthew 8:2, 14:33, 15:25, 28:17, John 9:38.

Paraphrased from What Did Jesus Say About Himself? A Complete Overview https://www.christianwebsite.com/what-d ... e_vignette

Over half being claimed multiple generations after their setting by the school of 'John', whoever they were.

Other grandiose claims were made on his behalf by Paul and 'John' at least.

No devout Christian is ignorant of any of this.

I asked Faithfind 'Chat with the Word' on +27 65 802 1982 on WhatsApp, via https://www.faithfind.org/

What supernatural claims are made by Jesus in the gospels?

1. *Son of God*: Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, affirming His divine nature (John 10:36).
2. *Forgiveness of Sins*: He declared the authority to forgive sins, which was considered a divine prerogative (Mark 2:5-7).
3. *Resurrection*: Jesus foretold His own resurrection from the dead (Matthew 16:21).
4. *Eternal Life*: He promised eternal life to those who believe in Him (John 3:16).
5. *Miracles*: Jesus performed numerous miracles, like turning water into wine (John 2:1-11) and feeding the 5,000 (Matthew 14:13-21).
6. *Walking on Water*: He walked on water, demonstrating His mastery over nature (Matthew 14:25).
7. *Authority over Demons*: Jesus cast out demons, showing His power over spiritual forces (Mark 1:34).
8. *Judgment*: He claimed the authority to judge humanity (John 5:22).
9. *Healing the Sick*: Jesus healed countless people from various diseases and disabilities (Matthew 4:23).
10. *Raising the Dead*: He raised people from the dead, including Lazarus (John 11:43-44).
11. *Transfiguration*: Jesus was transfigured, revealing His divine glory to His disciples (Matthew 17:1-2).
12. *Ascension*: After His resurrection, Jesus ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9-11).
13. *Omniscience*: Jesus demonstrated knowledge of people's thoughts and pasts, such as with the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:17-19).
14. *Claim to Preexistence*: He claimed to exist before Abraham, indicating His eternal nature (John 8:58).
15. *Control over Nature*: Jesus calmed a storm with His command, showing His authority over the elements (Mark 4:39).
16. *Prophecy Fulfillment*: Jesus fulfilled numerous Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah, such as being born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:22-23).
17. *Unity with the Father*: Jesus claimed a unique unity with God the Father (John 10:30).
18. *Ultimate Sacrifice*: He predicted His sacrificial death and resurrection for the salvation of humanity (Mark 10:33-34).
19. *Authority to Give Life*: Jesus claimed the authority to give eternal life to those who believe in Him (John 10:28).
20. *Promise of the Holy Spirit*: He promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide and comfort believers (John 14:16-17).
21. *His Return*: Jesus foretold His second coming in glory to establish God's kingdom (Matthew 24:30).
22. *Transcendence Over Time*: Jesus spoke of His return and the end times, indicating His authority over history (Matthew 24:36-44).
23. *Spiritual Insight*: He possessed deep spiritual insight, understanding the hearts and motives of people (John 2:24-25).
24. *Authority to Interpret the Law*: Jesus reinterpreted the Law with divine authority, emphasizing its true spirit (Matthew 5:17-48).
25. *Promise of Rest*: Jesus offered rest for the weary, highlighting His ability to provide spiritual peace (Matthew 11:28-30).
26. *Power over Sin*: He lived a sinless life, demonstrating His holiness and divine nature (1 Peter 2:22).
27. *Unity with Believers*: Jesus prayed for unity among His followers, reflecting His desire for a spiritual bond (John 17:20-23).
...

I can keep asking.

I then asked, 'What supernatural claims are made for Jesus in the epistles?'

1. *Preexistence and Creation*: Jesus is described as existing before all things and being the agent of creation (Colossians 1:16-17).
2. *Divine Nature*: He is affirmed as the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being (Hebrews 1:3).
3. *Sustainer of the Universe*: Jesus is said to uphold all things by His powerful word (Hebrews 1:3).
4. *Head of the Church*: He is the head of the Church, His body (Ephesians 1:22-23).
5. *Reconciler*: Through Jesus, God reconciles all things to Himself, making peace through His blood (Colossians 1:20).

Trolls will ask why, what, how, can you be more specific, what do you mean, yeah but.

As Jesus was just a man at most, if all of this was said by him and his followers, it could not be more grandiose.

To question that, even more so.

Let's see.

Earlier I posted the following:

You made a number of assertions as to what you believe Jesus had in mind. I had fully understood that you believe much of the mythology that the NT writers wrapped around Jesus' words. To understand what Jesus had in mind, you need to understand HIS words.

Jesus repeatedly emphasized the point that He spoke in parables. That is, He used figurative language. Despite this, the vast majority, if not all, Christians take statements [attributed to Jesus] ... literally and out of context ...because they believe it justifies them in claiming [Jesus said things about Himself] which [were] not His intent at all.

There's a distinction that needs to be made between what Jesus said about Himself and what Christianity says about Him. You keep referring to "[Jesus'] claims" whilst referring to Christianity's claims about Jesus. They are NOT one and the same. Try going through my earlier posts with that in mind. Hopefully the penny will drop for you.

Presumably your post is in response to the following:

By all means, make your best case using the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His Gospel. Jesus preached His Gospel from the beginning of His ministry through the crucifixion. Let's see if you can back up your assertions.

This is the best case you can make? Seems you continue to fail to make that distinction, despite your earlier claims otherwise. If you understood the distinction, why are you using a Christian website and Christian Chat engine as your sources?

Let's look at one example from your list:
1. *Son of God*: Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, affirming His divine nature (John 10:36).

In no way can this reasonably be taken as Jesus claiming to be literally the son of God.

It's a simple metaphor. Jesus calls for all of His followers to make themselves sons of God as He was a "son of God".

Everyone who has a been “born from above” has been born of God AND therefore has God as their “heavenly Father” AND therefore are “sons of God”. It’s a really simple metaphor.

Matthew 5:9“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Luke 6:35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
John 12:36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.
Matthew 6:26“Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them.

What's more, Christians often invoke the metaphor in reference to themselves: calling themselves "a child of God"; calling God "Father". It's ridiculous that so many of them believe that Jesus is claiming to be literally the son of God when He invokes the same metaphor.

This is the best case you can make? Mindlessly paraphrasing a Christian website and pasting answers from Christian Chat engine?

Sorry, what's your point? Without any projected ad hominem self hate?

You made a number of assertions as to what you believe Jesus had in mind. I had fully understood that you believe much of the mythology that the NT writers wrapped around Jesus' words. To understand what Jesus had in mind, you need to understand HIS words.

Jesus repeatedly emphasized the point that He spoke in parables. That is, He used figurative language. Despite this, the vast majority, if not all, Christians take statements [attributed to Jesus] ... literally and out of context ...because they believe it justifies them in claiming [Jesus said things about Himself] which [were] not His intent at all.

There's a distinction that needs to be made between what Jesus said about Himself and what Christianity says about Him. You keep referring to "[Jesus'] claims" whilst referring to Christianity's claims about Jesus. They are NOT one and the same. Try going through my earlier posts with that in mind. Hopefully the penny will drop for you.

By all means, make your best case using the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His Gospel. Jesus preached His Gospel from the beginning of His ministry through the crucifixion. Let's see if you can back up your assertions.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Let's see.

Earlier I posted the following:



Presumably your post is in response to the following:


This is the best case you can make? Seems you continue to fail to make that distinction, despite your earlier claims otherwise. If you understood the distinction, why are you using a Christian website and Christian Chat engine as your sources?

Let's look at one example from your list:
1. *Son of God*: Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, affirming His divine nature (John 10:36).

In no way can this reasonably be taken as Jesus claiming to be literally the son of God.

It's a simple metaphor. Jesus calls for all of His followers to make themselves sons of God as He was a "son of God".

Everyone who has a been “born from above” has been born of God AND therefore has God as their “heavenly Father” AND therefore are “sons of God”. It’s a really simple metaphor.

Matthew 5:9“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Luke 6:35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
John 12:36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.
Matthew 6:26“Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them.

What's more, Christians often invoke the metaphor in reference to themselves: calling themselves "a child of God"; calling God "Father". It's ridiculous that so many of them believe that Jesus is claiming to be literally the son of God when He invokes the same metaphor.

This is the best case you can make? Mindlessly paraphrasing a Christian website and pasting answers from Christian Chat engine?

Sorry, what's your point? Without any projected ad hominem self hate?

You made a number of assertions as to what you believe Jesus had in mind. I had fully understood that you believe much of the mythology that the NT writers wrapped around Jesus' words. To understand what Jesus had in mind, you need to understand HIS words.

Jesus repeatedly emphasized the point that He spoke in parables. That is, He used figurative language. Despite this, the vast majority, if not all, Christians take statements [attributed to Jesus] ... literally and out of context ...because they believe it justifies them in claiming [Jesus said things about Himself] which [were] not His intent at all.

There's a distinction that needs to be made between what Jesus said about Himself and what Christianity says about Him. You keep referring to "[Jesus'] claims" whilst referring to Christianity's claims about Jesus. They are NOT one and the same. Try going through my earlier posts with that in mind. Hopefully the penny will drop for you.

By all means, make your best case using the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His Gospel. Jesus preached His Gospel from the beginning of His ministry through the crucifixion. Let's see if you can back up your assertions.

And repeat. What are Jesus claims separate from the ones in the gospels written by Christians?

[ThinkOfOne]

Sorry, what's your point? Without any projected ad hominem self hate?

You made a number of assertions as to what you believe Jesus had in mind. I had fully understood that you believe much of the mythology that the NT writers wrapped around Jesus' words. To understand what Jesus had in mind, you need to understand HIS words.

Jesus repeatedly emphasized the point that He spoke in parables. That is, He used figurative language. Despite this, the vast majority, if not all, Christians take statements [attributed to Jesus] ... literally and out of context ...because they believe it justifies them in claiming [Jesus said things about Himself] which [were] not His intent at all.

There's a distinction that needs to be made between what Jesus said about Himself and what Christianity says about Him. You keep referring to "[Jesus'] claims" whilst referring to Christianity's claims about Jesus. They are NOT one and the same. Try going through my earlier posts with that in mind. Hopefully the penny will drop for you.

By all means, make your best case using the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His Gospel. Jesus preached His Gospel from the beginning of His ministry through the crucifixion. Let's see if you can back up your assertions.

And repeat. What are Jesus claims separate from the ones in the gospels written by Christians?

Are you unable make a distinction between words that the NT writers attribute to Jesus and commentary by the NT writers about Jesus?

Are you similarly unable to make a distinction between words that an author attributes to a political figure and commentary that author makes about the political figure in a magazine article for instance?

[Martin Peter Clarke]

You made a number of assertions as to what you believe Jesus had in mind. I had fully understood that you believe much of the mythology that the NT writers wrapped around Jesus' words. To understand what Jesus had in mind, you need to understand HIS words.

Jesus repeatedly emphasized the point that He spoke in parables. That is, He used figurative language. Despite this, the vast majority, if not all, Christians take statements [attributed to Jesus] ... literally and out of context ...because they believe it justifies them in claiming [Jesus said things about Himself] which [were] not His intent at all.

There's a distinction that needs to be made between what Jesus said about Himself and what Christianity says about Him. You keep referring to "[Jesus'] claims" whilst referring to Christianity's claims about Jesus. They are NOT one and the same. Try going through my earlier posts with that in mind. Hopefully the penny will drop for you.

By all means, make your best case using the words attributed to Jesus while He preached His Gospel. Jesus preached His Gospel from the beginning of His ministry through the crucifixion. Let's see if you can back up your assertions.

And repeat. What are Jesus claims separate from the ones in the gospels written by Christians?

Are you unable make a distinction between words that the NT writers attribute to Jesus and commentary by the NT writers about Jesus?

Are you similarly unable to make a distinction between words that an author attributes to a political figure and commentary that author makes about the political figure in a magazine article for instance?

Why do you ask such pointedly trolly questions? No, I haven't stopped beating my wife.

[Belinda]

ThinkOfOne, the question of which words in the Gospels are more probably those of Jesus of Nazareth has already been studied by professional historians .The process and findings are in the public domain.

The Jesus Seminar was a group of scholars who investigated the historical Jesus and his teachings. Founded in 1985 by Robert W. Funk under the auspices of the Westar Institute, the seminar aimed to determine what Jesus likely said and did, distinguishing between what was attributed to him by the early church and what was possibly said by him.

Westar began in 1985 when Robert W. Funk invited 30 New Testament scholars to join him in the Jesus Seminar, a collaborative inquiry about the historical Jesus. Since its founding, Westar has held a series of innovative seminars on the origins of Christianity. But Funk’s founding vision was larger than scholarship for its own sake. His aim was to make religious literacy as ubiquitous as reading, writing, and arithmetic.