Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by Arising_uk »

spike wrote:I am not sure how this relates to what I last wrote. ...
You claimed that there will never be a communist or socialist economic system.
Nevertheless, without capitalism science cannot be expected to solve the problem of scarce resources. From capitalism and the free market science acquires the financing to do research and then the manufacturing and distribution of what it invents. For one, where would the Internet be if capitalism hadn't been there to finance its scientific research and development. ...
The Internet came from non-capitalist institutions. What is "free market science"? You appear to be a Marxist as its his idea that Capitalism will be required before we have Socialism.
Science is a democratic institution. Science, in order to do its job, has to be free to exchange ideas within its discipline. Under communism scientists were not free to exchange and discuss ideas openly. Thus science under communism was not able to do its duty of discovering alternative resources and ways to better life. This is another reason why communism collapsed, simply because it restricted science from doing its job of advancing and modernizing society.
First satellite in space, first animal in space, first man in space, first women in space, first space station, the Americans are going to be using the Soviet designed lifters as they are better than the capitalist ones. Science is not a democratic institution. Since when has Science had this environmental and social role that you appear to be proposing for it? I'll agree that Stalinism partly collapsed to due being unable to keep up with the American war machine as they started from a very different base but I note that they did manage to match them for a long time. We'd all be Nazis now if it wasn't for the Soviets economic production levels.
spike
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by spike »

The Soviet Union under communism produced some tremendous science, as Auk mentioned. But it wasn't a science of sustainability. Had it been a science for the common good rather than for military purposes the Soviet Union and communism would still be with us today. Had it been a science that produced consumer goods and increased the wellbeing of people communism and Marxism would still be flourishing.

Sure, "The Internet came from non-capitalist institutions." But who financed it and brought it to market so the majority could benefit from it? Capitalism and the free market of course. Why are people so thick on this issue?
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dawnmathieson
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by dawnmathieson »

Not particularly related but interesting randomness......
Capitalism could actually prevent stem cell related medical treatments in Europe. This is because of a law against patenting anything that uses embryos for industrial or commercial gain. If it can not be patented then the major companies involved in taking treatments such as these and making them readily available will not touch them. They will not invest money to test a product or procedure that anyone can copy. Without investment these treatments will remain nothing more than interesting concepts in a laboratory x
spike
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by spike »

Capitalism could actually prevent stem cell related medical treatments in Europe. This is because of a law against patenting anything that uses embryos for industrial or commercial gain. If it can not be patented then the major companies involved in taking treatments such as these and making them readily available will not touch them. They will not invest money to test a product or procedure that anyone can copy. Without investment these treatments will remain nothing more than interesting concepts in a laboratory x
Not much of an anti-capitalist argument here dawn. You are just, what they call, cheery picking. Capitalism is also about protecting intellectual property.
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dawnmathieson
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by dawnmathieson »

spike wrote:
Capitalism could actually prevent stem cell related medical treatments in Europe. This is because of a law against patenting anything that uses embryos for industrial or commercial gain. If it can not be patented then the major companies involved in taking treatments such as these and making them readily available will not touch them. They will not invest money to test a product or procedure that anyone can copy. Without investment these treatments will remain nothing more than interesting concepts in a laboratory x
Not much of an anti-capitalist argument here dawn. You are just, what they call, cheery picking. Capitalism is also about protecting intellectual property.
Im neither anti capitalist nor pro capitalist, as i said it was just random trivia x
chaz wyman
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by chaz wyman »

spike wrote:
Capitalism could actually prevent stem cell related medical treatments in Europe. This is because of a law against patenting anything that uses embryos for industrial or commercial gain. If it can not be patented then the major companies involved in taking treatments such as these and making them readily available will not touch them. They will not invest money to test a product or procedure that anyone can copy. Without investment these treatments will remain nothing more than interesting concepts in a laboratory x
Not much of an anti-capitalist argument here dawn. You are just, what they call, cheery picking. Capitalism is also about protecting intellectual property.
You are playing a childish and obvious game that any fool can call you on.
You argument goes like this:
1) Capitalism is Good.
2) All good things that you can find in a society with capitalism must be capitalist.
3) All things on earth that are bad are not capitalist.


It's a bit pathetic really.
Please Note: this Forum is not a political rally where you can say anything regardless of reason. It is a Philosophy site, and as such there are people here who are looking at the content of argument, not your political appeal with rhetoric and polemic.

The simple fact is that "Intellectual Property Rights" is not an inherent quality of capitalism.
This near universal idea, IPR can be found in most societies including non-capitalist ones.
You can also find in early capitalist societies an absence of this idea.
IPR is not the invention of, nor a necessary property of capitalism.

Let's pay another game:

Poverty, Pollution, Disease, Warfare, Technological Disasters, Bad Art, Dog Shit are all things that a capitalist society generates - therefore capitalism is bad.
spike
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by spike »

Capitalism is good!

I am surprised that with all you lefties on this forum there hasn't been any condemnation of the Royal Wedding.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by Arising_uk »

spike wrote:Capitalism is good!

I am surprised that with all you lefties on this forum there hasn't been any condemnation of the Royal Wedding.
There was a Royal Wedding!?

Capitalism like Communism and Socialism is neither 'good' nor 'bad', they just have their advantages and disadvantages. You appear a little blind to the disadvantages of capitalism Spike, whilst us 'lefties' are now well aware of the those associated with communism.
p.s.
So republicans are lefties now?
Last edited by Arising_uk on Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
spike
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by spike »

Capitalism like Communism and Socialism is neither 'good' nor 'bad'
There is certainly a clear distinction between capitalism and communism. When during the Cold War one compared the two you could see how drab and dreary the communist countries were. There were always shortages of food and long line-ups for it. People pretended that things worked when in fact they didn't. And because they really didn't work the communist states and their handlers covered it up with lies, corruption, pay-offs and prison camps. Eventually that bankrupted the communist world and thus collapsed as a legitimate governing system.

Oh, there are remnants of communism still in the world like in China. But for countries like China they've had to supplement communism with capitalist ways in order to survive. Communism as an economic system could never manage to consistently look after the basics, to cloth people, put a roof over their head and feed them. In the end it mostly had to rely on outside help to do that basic task, or kill people off.

China is still very much a communist country when it comes to politics. And this is for good reason. The people on the whole are not ready for democracy nor does it yet have the institutions to uphold it. That will take time. Nevertheless, in an ironic twist, communism has helped prepare countries to become democratic by forcing them to be coherent instead of splintered societies as they once where.

Capitalism and communism have never managed to live up to their promises. But communism really failed because it took the utopian approach which realistically could never be met, let alone lived. Utopia could only be achieved through force and beating up people, which communism was very good at.
chaz wyman
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by chaz wyman »

spike wrote:Capitalism is good!

I am surprised that with all you lefties on this forum there hasn't been any condemnation of the Royal Wedding.

I don't like to support Benefit Scroungers.
bus2bondi
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by bus2bondi »

i read a book once called 'Gaviotas, A Village To Reinvent The World' by Alan Weisman and i thought it was very good. you wouldn't say it was capitalist or communist, it just is what it is, but technically it combines some elements of both. the 'reinvent the world' section of the title could put some people off, depending on, but i liked it. it is amazing what they've done. i think anyways.

there are other small examples around the world (currently and historically) as well, that i've heard anyway, that have been working well.

(there are even some examples mentioned in the archive of this website)(but i have no idea where they are anymore)

there is even this group of homeless people, i believe it is in California(?), that got together and formed a community that helps eachother, and i think might have a small element of capitalism within it. probably because at the moment it has no choice? i forgot the name of it. it is a non-profit.

there is another one i found out about a few weeks ago too, that combines both. its an intentional community that combines both and seems to be doing well.

again, i'm not sure if the capitalism involved in some communities is because they have no choice, or if that was intentional as well. currently if you'd like more than the absolute sheer basics, after the land is purchased, (and even then there are initial and current costs), capitalism seems unnavoidable in the current state of our nation. even for 'modern independent homesteaders' who are not necessarily neither of the two.

i would like to add, that the capitalism involved in some of these communities is generally of a different type that were used to and any technology used tends to be "appropriate technology"

in the Gavioutas community, its founder mentioned something about a return back to small city-states? i thought that was interesting.

well, anyways, thanks. its really nice that there are daring people out there that would even ask such a question, whether it would be a change for the better compared to what is going on now and ever work someday for everyone or not.

hope you are well
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dawnmathieson
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by dawnmathieson »

Good afternoon all. sorry ive been away so long, my hard drive finally coughed, spluttered and died. Im currently running t' internets off a linux trial cd so temperamental to the say the least.

Yes Spike feel free to argue against each and every point i raise but please try to explain your arguments clearly to encourage discussion. In this case please explain the necessary connection between capitalism and intellectual property rights and why you think property rights cannot exist in a non capitalist society. royale wedding? off topic much? Again spike shortages in resources do tend to be linked to communism but this is usually very needs must. What i want from you is a reason why communism and capitalismcould never work hand in hand.

Your argument is....
1) Communism hasn't worked in some occasions
2) Communism can't work in any occasion

so i guess...
1) Cancer hasnt been cured in some occasions
2) Cancer cant be cured in any occasion

Right we'll just stop trying then. Please give arguments why taxation of labour to meet basic needs is inherently flawed and why you think it could never be successful in a modern society. I argue that taxation of labour and currency to meet all basic needs is a fairer form of taxation than currency alone.

Thankyou bus2bondi I shall have a look at it. mixtures of capitalism and communism have been successful on small scales but never been accurately or successfully applied to a larger modern society x
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Arising_uk
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by Arising_uk »

dawnmathieson wrote:...
Right we'll just stop trying then. Please give arguments why taxation of labour to meet basic needs is inherently flawed and why you think it could never be successful in a modern society. I argue that taxation of labour and currency to meet all basic needs is a fairer form of taxation than currency alone. ...
Dawn, how about the idea of a land valuation tax as a fairer sysem than taxing income?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax

http://www.landvaluetax.org/
chaz wyman
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by chaz wyman »

Arising_uk wrote:
dawnmathieson wrote:...
Right we'll just stop trying then. Please give arguments why taxation of labour to meet basic needs is inherently flawed and why you think it could never be successful in a modern society. I argue that taxation of labour and currency to meet all basic needs is a fairer form of taxation than currency alone. ...
Dawn, how about the idea of a land valuation tax as a fairer sysem than taxing income?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax

http://www.landvaluetax.org/
So a millionaire living in a swanky apartment in the city centre would pay a tiny fraction of the cost that a poor farmer would have to fork out on his scrubland, in the hinterlands?
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Arising_uk
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Re: Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

Post by Arising_uk »

chaz wyman wrote:So a millionaire living in a swanky apartment in the city centre would pay a tiny fraction of the cost that a poor farmer would have to fork out on his scrubland, in the hinterlands?
Depends if this millionaire owned any land I'd guess. This farmer would probably have to pay less tax than he does now as its "scrubland, in the hinterlands" so I'd guess it'd depend upon how its valued and I assume he'd not be paying other taxes. Not saying its perfect tax system as there isn't one I think but we could combine it with a low wealth tax I guess. Just thinking of different approaches to the diabolical systems we have now.
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