The Democrat Party Hates America

[FlashDangerpants]

But which "process" is "due" in this case?

To “prove” what is due in US jurisprudence, one refers to established case law:

Legal Rights for Undocumented Immigrants

A series of U.S. Supreme Court cases spanning over a century sequentially established due process rights for undocumented immigrants.

That much is all that is needed to answer any question aboutthe validity of the claim.... "Due process" applies to citizens only.

Further information simply invites the inveterate bearer of false witness to go further in his assault on the ten commandments.

[FlashDangerpants]

Due process was denied, the situation must be remedied.

"Due process" applies to citizens only.

You bear false witness.

[Alexis Jacobi]

What's not at all made clear by all this is under what circumstances such right apply. Taken completely literally, it would mean that a Venezuelan criminal who had managed to put one finger on a piece of US territory, bringing along fentanyl to sell, and children to rape and murder with him, could not be summarily extradited until he'd had protracted court proceedings at public expense.

Actually the rules indicate that in his deportation hearing he would have to provide his own lawyer. That court would have no obligation to provide him with legal counsel.

But yes, technically, that criminal illegal immigrant would be granted certain (limited) rights — if he chose to exercise them.

He could of course simply agree with the government initiating the deportation proceedings. He could also pay a lawyer (or take advantage of pro bono or NGO legal counsel) and try to beat the case.

You must remember: Garcia had done just this! He had been granted the right to reside and work while his case was under review.

A US court granted him this privilege.

The mistake (or misdeed?) of the Trump administration was to have deported him though he had legal status.

Today is the 25th of April. Can you provide an estimate of how much longer it will take you to understand this?

Is June 15th enough time?

Walker?

a Venezuelan criminal who had managed to put one finger on a piece of US territory

I think his whole body would have to be in the US. And I am uncertain how the Constitutional rights apply in the territories.

[Alexis Jacobi]

An interesting note: A non-US person can be sent to Federal prison. I assume also to state prison.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Oh dear!

[FlashDangerpants]

Oh dear!

Oh dear
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/ice ... eportation

[Immanuel Can]

Due process was denied, the situation must be remedied.

"Due process" applies to citizens only.

You bear false witness.

Which "process" are you claiming? I can't agree with what you don't even understand. Do you claim that if a person puts a finger onto US territory, they have all the rights of a citizen? Why would I agree with that, if that's what you mean? But I don't know what you mean, and you never say.

[Immanuel Can]

What's not at all made clear by all this is under what circumstances such right apply. Taken completely literally, it would mean that a Venezuelan criminal who had managed to put one finger on a piece of US territory, bringing along fentanyl to sell, and children to rape and murder with him, could not be summarily extradited until he'd had protracted court proceedings at public expense.

But yes, technically, that criminal illegal immigrant would be granted certain (limited) rights — if he chose to exercise them.

He isn't an "immigrant," but a hostile invader. What's the "process" for a hostile invader?

I think his whole body would have to be in the US. And I am uncertain how the Constitutional rights apply in the territories.

So you don't really know what "process" is applicable.

Neither does Flash, apparently. Maybe it's never been fully established how a hostile invader is supposed to be treated...other than the obvious: immediate expulsion or sudden consequences, which would seem obvious.

But Flash is probably just the standard Dem, who's hoping to use legal wrangling to stultify the proper mechanisms long enough to admit all the pimps, drug pushers, child traffickers, terrorists and such to America, on the assumption, he must suppose, that that is the kind of person who eventually votes Democrat.

[FlashDangerpants]

Due process was denied, the situation must be remedied.

"Due process" applies to citizens only.

There is no need to worry about which process. It is not the case that due process is denied to non-citizens, therefore the claim "Due process" applies to citizens only is a lie.

[Alexis Jacobi]

He isn't an "immigrant," but a hostile invader. What's the "process" for a hostile invader?

But Flash is probably just the standard Dem, who's hoping to use legal wrangling to stultify the proper mechanisms long enough to admit all the pimps, drug pushers, child traffickers, terrorists and such to America, on the assumption, he must suppose, that that is the kind of person who eventually votes Democrat.

It would not matter for the issue of jurisprudence if he was a Dem, the Baal Shem Tov, an invader, or a gorgeous songbird. If he really were a military agent well, obviously, that is another case.

I agree with you that gangsters are “hostile” and should be deported.

Illegal immigrant, illegal invader, Wetback, undocumented foreigner — the same Constitutional protections are offered. This is the way it is in my country.

You (and any other) may not like it but if this administration is allowed to violate the law for their purposes, it sets a dangerous precedent to extend the violations further: to citizens for example.

In fact this was just done. Though the citizens were minors (babies) deported with their illegal immigrant mothers.

Can’t do that! As much as I do not agree with the principle behind anchor baby citizenship.

Everything that needs doing can be done — must be done — in accordance with the laws. Otherwise it opens a can of worms that cannot be shut.

[Immanuel Can]

Due process was denied, the situation must be remedied.

"Due process" applies to citizens only.

There is no need to worry about which process.

Sure there is. You have to know what is "due" to each, and what "process" applies. The phrase "due process" is vague -- it doesn't describe a particular thing, but rather a general field of possibilities, each one decided by the relevant circumstances.

By the way, what's the answer to my question: can I be deported for murder?

[Immanuel Can]

He isn't an "immigrant," but a hostile invader. What's the "process" for a hostile invader?

But Flash is probably just the standard Dem, who's hoping to use legal wrangling to stultify the proper mechanisms long enough to admit all the pimps, drug pushers, child traffickers, terrorists and such to America, on the assumption, he must suppose, that that is the kind of person who eventually votes Democrat.

It would not matter for the issue of jurisprudence if he was a Dem, the Baal Shem Tov, an invader, or a gorgeous songbird. If he really were a military agent well, obviously, that is another case.

What if he's a member of a terrorist organization, or a drug running operation, or a human trafficking operation?

I agree with you that gangsters are “hostile” and should be deported.

Right. Well, entering the US by illegal means is an illegal act.

[FlashDangerpants]

Due process was denied, the situation must be remedied.

"Due process" applies to citizens only.

Due process is a well established legal doctrine that has been around for many centuries and is the basis of the legal systems in all countries that operate the Anglo Saxon Legal Code. Countries with that code include the United States, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan, South Africa, Hong Kong (still).... So you have a doctrine of due process in your country too and it applies to you. It also applies to everybody else in the country irrespective of citizenship.

It is not an obscure thing just because you only learned of its existence last week. It first manifests in 1215 in a document called the Magna Carta. The (modernised) text of Clause 39 of the MC reads "No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or dispossessed, or outlawed, or exiled, or in any way destroyed, nor will we go upon or send upon him except by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land". The phrase “due process of law” first appeared as a substitute for Magna Carta’s “the law of the land” in a 1354 statute of King Edward III that restated Magna Carta’s guarantee of the liberty of the subject. The primary American establishment of Due Process lies in the Fifth and fourteenth amendments, neither of which reserves due process to Americans.


There is no need to worry about which process. It is not the case that due process is denied to non-citizens, therefore the claim "Due process" applies to citizens only is a lie.

[Alexis Jacobi]

What if he's (1) a member of a terrorist organization, or (2) a drug running operation, or (3) a human trafficking operation?

1) That would literally fall under the category of terrorist, enemy combatant, etc. He would be arrested obviously but there may be some legal differences under military law, if it applied.

Note that this is why the Trump administration attempts to classify Tren de Aragua members as “enemy combatants”. The administration has much more freedom in how they treat them. A few hundred were handed over to El Salvador.

2) He would be arrested, charged, and given legal counsel by the State (if he could not afford an attorney).

3) He would be arrested, charged, and given legal counsel by the State (if he could not afford an attorney).

[Immanuel Can]

There is no need to worry about which process.

Not for you, maybe. You just want to keep all the drug lords, rapists, terrorists and child abusers in the country, so the Dems get their program.

Maybe others care.