The Democrat Party Hates America

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FlashDangerpants
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:04 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 2:57 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 6:49 pm
"Due process" applies to citizens only.
That statement is factually incorrect.
It entirely depends on which "process" is "due". The term "due process" itself does not specify. So prove what's "due" in this case.

But you won't. You're ideologically possessed, it seems.
The same Due Process that formed the basis of the case that went before the Supreme Court, in which the SC ruled unanimously that the plaintiff's Due Process rights were ignored and which Sotomayor referenced in the concurrence: "That means the Government must comply with its obligation to provide Abrego Garcia with due process of law, including notice and an opportunity to be heard, in any future proceedings."

you know this already.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:12 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:04 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 2:57 pm
That statement is factually incorrect.
It entirely depends on which "process" is "due". The term "due process" itself does not specify. So prove what's "due" in this case.

But you won't. You're ideologically possessed, it seems.
The same Due Process
Specify it. What's "due process" for establishing that somebody is an alien invader, not a citizen. Lay it out.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:18 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:12 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:04 pm
It entirely depends on which "process" is "due". The term "due process" itself does not specify. So prove what's "due" in this case.

But you won't. You're ideologically possessed, it seems.
The same Due Process
Specify it. What's "due process" for establishing that somebody is an alien invader, not a citizen. Lay it out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Immanuel Can »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:27 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:18 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:12 pm
The same Due Process
Specify it. What's "due process" for establishing that somebody is an alien invader, not a citizen. Lay it out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process
Yeah, you didn't answer. I knew it.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 6:49 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 4:20 pm Due process was denied, the situation must be remedied.
"Due process" applies to citizens only.
Due process is not not for citizens only.
Please just admit you made a mistake, like a non-psychopathic person would have done days ago.
Belinda
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 2:38 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 2:26 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 1:00 pm
Why? Why isn't community charitability better?
Community charitability has been insufficient since Moses codified law.
Apparently not. America started not with government management and programs, but with volunteer communities who helped one another -- if you read Alexis deTocqueville, you'll find that out. America used to depend very heavily on the generosity and cooperation of each other. And even today, most charitable funds run by private and corporate donation, not by governmental administration.

But I agree that at least one more thing is essential: the sort of community-spiritedness produced by Judeo-Christian ethics at the public level. Only a society committed to the dignity of all persons, to community fellowship, mutual helping and to caring for one another can achieve this by what Tocqueville called "voluntary associations" of various kinds. And there is no longer that in the US today.

But government is no alternative. As DOGE has exposed, what was happening instead was bloated bureaucracy, graft, robbing the poor through taxation, corruption of offices, and ridiculous waste. The ordinary, hard-working taxpayer has been losing, and losing badly; and the whole economy was being tanked by governmental corruption and wretched fiscal abuses, like paying "social benefits" to people alleged to have been both 150 years old today, and not even born yet, or like sending free condoms to Gazans and trans-surgeries to Guatemalans, or paying salaries to people who never came to work at all, and who became terrified at the mere prospect of having to simply list five things they did in the last week.
i
Educated and well informed public the more the better remedy inefficiency, corruption, and irresponsibility.
Last edited by Belinda on Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 6:49 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 4:20 pm Due process was denied, the situation must be remedied.
"Due process" applies to citizens only.
Due process is not not for citizens only.
But which "process" is "due" in this case? Answer my other question: can I be extradited just for murder? Yes, or no.

Or run away from it again. Either way, the point is made.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:58 pm But which "process" is "due" in this case? Answer my other question: can I be extradited just for murder? Yes, or no.
If you are even asking that question you don't understand due process.
I have given you several resources that could help if you were not too arrogant to address a shortcoming of your own.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:58 pm But which "process" is "due" in this case?
To “prove” what is due in US jurisprudence, one refers to established case law:
Legal Rights for Undocumented Immigrants

A series of U.S. Supreme Court cases spanning over a century sequentially established due process rights for undocumented immigrants. Such rights should apply even more to the subgroup of undocumented immigrants who are residing in the United States because they are fleeing persecution. Many of these cases expanded upon the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which initially guaranteed “equal protection of the laws” to “all persons born or naturalized in the United States,” but did not directly address the matter of undocumented immigrants or those meeting criteria for asylum.

Yick Wo v. Hopkins (1886) guaranteed due process rights not only to newly freed African Americans, but also legal immigrants such as Chinese immigrant Yick Wo.11 Here, Justice Matthews opined: The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution is not confined to the protection of citizens…. These provisions are universal in their application to all persons within the territorial jurisdiction, without regard to any differences of race, of color, or of nationality, and the equal protection of the laws is a pledge of the protection of equal laws [Ref. 11, p 369]. Shortly thereafter in Wong Wing v. United States (1896) the Court ruled that, although Wong Wing was an undocumented immigrant detained for unauthorized entry into the country, due process rights applied to him.12 Here, Justice Field opined, “The majority of the Justices in this case hold that whatever might be true as to the power of the United States to exclude aliens … could only be lawfully exercised after a judicial trial” (Ref. 12, pp 238–9), and then goes on to add, “But I do not concur, but dissent entirely, from what seemed to me to be harsh and illegal assertions made … to deny the accused the full protection of the law and Constitution against every form of oppression and cruelty to them” (Ref. 12 p 239). Although peripherally related, United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) further expanded the reach of the Fourteenth Amendment by declaring that the children of “resident aliens,” or foreign nationals residing within the United States, are indeed to be considered full citizens and be granted the rights conferring therein (Ref. 1313, pp 693–4).

The turn of the 20th century was punctuated by one of the most crucial cases in undocumented immigrant law heard by the Supreme Court in Yamataya v. Fisher (1903).14 Although the court actually ruled against Kaoru Yamataya, a Japanese immigrant in this case, it did uphold and confirm that undocumented immigrants are guaranteed due process rights in deportation hearings, and specifically stated that such individuals could not be acted against without a fair hearing.

The modern definition of a fair hearing in removal proceedings for this population is found in the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 under 8 U.S. Code § 1229a,15 which clearly states, “the alien shall have the privilege of being represented, at no expense to the Government,” and “the alien shall have a reasonable opportunity to examine the evidence against the alien, to present evidence on the alien's own behalf, and to cross-examine the witnesses presented by the Government …” (Ref. 15 ¶(b)(4)).

The phrase “right to counsel at no cost to the government” is quite noteworthy. This suggests that, while legal counsel is considered a right for undocumented immigrants, the government will not absorb the cost of providing such counsel. Without dedicated nonprofit organizations, such clients would be responsible for representing themselves. This is in stark contrast to the U.S. criminal justice system in which all defendants are provided counsel, even if they cannot afford an attorney.

Given that deportation hearings are administrative rather than criminal proceedings, some have argued that due process rights need not apply. However, these arguments are directly countered by the Supreme Court's opinion in Bridges v. Wixon (1945), in which Justice Murphy opined that: Though deportation is not technically a criminal proceeding, it visits a great hardship on the individual and deprives him of the right to stay and live and work in this land of freedom…. That deportation is a penalty … cannot be doubted. Meticulous care must be exercised lest the procedure by which he is deprived of that liberty not meet the essential standards of fairness [Ref. 16, p 154]. These sentiments are further supported by the Court in Wong Yang Sung v. McGrath (1950) in which it defined aliens as a “voteless class of litigants who not only lack the influence of citizens, but who are strangers to the laws and customs in which they find themselves involved and who often do not even understand the tongue in which they are accused” (Ref. 17, p 46).

In Plyler v. Doe (1982), the Supreme Court reversed a Texas statute that barred illegal immigrants and their children born outside of the United States from obtaining a free public education.18 Here again, Justice Brennan cited the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, and went on to opine, “Whatever his status under the immigration laws, an alien is surely a ‘person’ in any ordinary sense of that term. Aliens, even aliens whose presence in this country is unlawful, have long been recognized as ‘persons’ guaranteed due process of law by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments” (Ref. 18, p 210). The same year the court decided that those considered resident aliens who are not citizens but are given a foreign work permit are entitled to the same due process rights as citizens in Landon v. Plasencia.19
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:02 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:58 pm But which "process" is "due" in this case? Answer my other question: can I be extradited just for murder? Yes, or no.
If you are even asking...
You don't know. You won't say. You don't understand.

Works for me.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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If you would, Immanuel , can you clarify what you mean by the question about extradition for murder?

Also, are you of the opinion that non-citizen illegal immigrants have no rights?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:07 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:58 pm But which "process" is "due" in this case?
To “prove” what is due in US jurisprudence, one refers to established case law:
Legal Rights for Undocumented Immigrants
What's not at all made clear by all this is under what circumstances such right apply. Taken completely literally, it would mean that a Venezuelan criminal who had managed to put one finger on a piece of US territory, bringing along fentanyl to sell, and children to rape and murder with him, could not be summarily extradited until he'd had protracted court proceedings at public expense. That's obviously not the case. There's a limit of time and circumstance as to who gets what procedure, and what is really "due."

One of the things a judge does is arbitrate which precedent applies in the given circumstances; and that having not happened in regard the wave of latest migrants, it's a matter yet to be settled. So all we can contest it on, right now, is logical and moral grounds, because the legal terrain is not clear, despite all the whining of the Dems. And what procedure is appropriate to levy in the case in which a US president betrays his country by collapsing the southern border, well, that's also yet to be established -- nobody before Biden was ever venial enough to traffick on the misery of millions in precisely that sort of way, or to provide such broad access to the country, and potentially to its legal system, to rapists, drug runners and terrorists.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 6:49 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 4:20 pm Due process was denied, the situation must be remedied.
"Due process" applies to citizens only.
Due process is not not for citizens only.
Please just admit you made a mistake, like a non-psychopathic person would have done days ago.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:16 pm If you would, Immanuel , can you clarify what you mean by the question about extradition for murder?
Yes. It means if I murdered an American citizen, and they proved it by "due process," could they rightfully extradite me for that, without also giving me a whole second trial and proving my carjacking as well?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:23 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 6:49 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 19, 2025 4:20 pm Due process was denied, the situation must be remedied.
"Due process" applies to citizens only.
Due process...
Non-responsive.
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