How AI, Robotics, and Clean Energy Will End Labor and Money – A Future Where Everything Is Free

[FlashDangerpants]

So let me ask again, simply:
How long do you think we should wait before seriously discussing how to prepare for it?

Ok, well depending on which futurologist you ask, we are in the 4th or 5th or 6th industrial revolution right now. Your speculations about an AI that controls the entire global supply chain for every commodity and nullifies all need for human about is about 12 of those industrial revolutions away.

So we need to give it 6 industrial revolutions I guess before we have enough info to even guesstimate how society will have been changed by all the steps required to get us anywhere near an AI that can control everything. So when kids think ChatGPT is the funny thing from the olden times that grandma used to help her cheat on her homework, let's revisit.

Fair enough—you want a concrete claim? Here it is:

I predict that by the late 2050s, at least 80% of all human labor in the most developed countries will be gone. Not because people get lazy, but because they won’t be needed. AI, robotics, and fully autonomous systems—powered by clean, nearly free energy—will have taken over the vast majority of what we now consider “work.”

That’s not twelve industrial revolutions away. It’s one very fast-moving one that’s already underway. So the real question isn’t if we revisit this—it’s whether we’ll be ready by the time that conversation becomes unavoidable.

The goalposts really went for a wander didn't they?

I am looking at that reduced claim, and comparing it to the title of this thread, and wondering if you can account for any slippage?

[Philowonderer]

Really compelling post! It raises questions that feel increasingly urgent as we edge closer to a post-labor, post-money world. Your framing of this future as not a utopia but an outcome of intersecting scientific and technological forces really resonated.

In light of your questions around human purpose, ethics, and governance in such a radically transformed landscape, I wanted to recommend an article that might align well with your thinking: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/meta.12595.

The piece argues that emerging technologies are transforming our world so profoundly that they require new philosophical frameworks, ones that are as transdisciplinary and forward-looking as the challenges we now face. It introduces neuro-techno-philosophy as a collaborative approach, bringing together philosophers, scientists, and technologists to anticipate and help shape the societal and existential implications of these rapid shifts. It doesn’t just look at technology’s impact on society but asks how our very capacity to theorize, to be subjects, is being transformed. I thought it might be a useful lens for exploring the deeper philosophical and ethical terrain of a world increasingly shaped by AI, robots and other frontier technologies.

[BigMike]

Ok, well depending on which futurologist you ask, we are in the 4th or 5th or 6th industrial revolution right now. Your speculations about an AI that controls the entire global supply chain for every commodity and nullifies all need for human about is about 12 of those industrial revolutions away.

So we need to give it 6 industrial revolutions I guess before we have enough info to even guesstimate how society will have been changed by all the steps required to get us anywhere near an AI that can control everything. So when kids think ChatGPT is the funny thing from the olden times that grandma used to help her cheat on her homework, let's revisit.

Fair enough—you want a concrete claim? Here it is:

I predict that by the late 2050s, at least 80% of all human labor in the most developed countries will be gone. Not because people get lazy, but because they won’t be needed. AI, robotics, and fully autonomous systems—powered by clean, nearly free energy—will have taken over the vast majority of what we now consider “work.”

That’s not twelve industrial revolutions away. It’s one very fast-moving one that’s already underway. So the real question isn’t if we revisit this—it’s whether we’ll be ready by the time that conversation becomes unavoidable.

The goalposts really went for a wander didn't they?

I am looking at that reduced claim, and comparing it to the title of this thread, and wondering if you can account for any slippage?

Good catch—and fair to call that out.

But I don’t see it as slippage so much as scaling the argument appropriately over time. The thread's original claim—that AI, robotics, and clean energy will end labor and money entirely—is still where I think we’re headed in the long term. The 80% prediction by the late 2050s? That’s the threshold where the system starts tipping irreversibly in that direction. Not the final state—just the turning point.

Think of it like glaciers melting. The early signs don’t mean all the ice is gone—but once you're 80% in, the trajectory is set, and there's no going back.

So no, I’m not moving the goalposts. I’m just showing you where they’re currently standing—and where they’re heading fast.

[accelafine]

Aha! An errant comma!

To whom it may concern,
You need to change your AI settings to English instead of American Manglish. The Manglish taints the prose and might even be responsible for the offending comma.

You're welcome.

[seeds]

So let me ask again, simply:
How long do you think we should wait before seriously discussing how to prepare for it?

Ok, well depending on which futurologist you ask, we are in the 4th or 5th or 6th industrial revolution right now. Your speculations about an AI that controls the entire global supply chain for every commodity and nullifies all need for human about is about 12 of those industrial revolutions away.

So we need to give it 6 industrial revolutions I guess before we have enough info to even guesstimate how society will have been changed by all the steps required to get us anywhere near an AI that can control everything. So when kids think ChatGPT is the funny thing from the olden times that grandma used to help her cheat on her homework, let's revisit.

Fair enough—you want a concrete claim? Here it is:

I predict that by the late 2050s, at least 80% of all human labor in the most developed countries will be gone. Not because people get lazy, but because they won’t be needed. AI, robotics, and fully autonomous systems—powered by clean, nearly free energy—will have taken over the vast majority of what we now consider “work.”

According to AI Overview...

The United Nations projects the world population to reach 10 billion by 2058.

To which I suggest that if according to your "...concrete claim..." that at least 80% of all human labor in the most developed countries will be gone by that time ("the late 2050s")...

...then one of the largest tasks that the mechanical appendages of AI and robotics will have to perform is the retrieval and disposal of all of the dead and rotting corpses of the millions (if not billions) of humans who will have died from not having any means of earning the money they need to buy food or to pay for housing and other necessities for survival.

And don't you dare try to hand us any horse crap predictions of how the meeting of all of our basic material needs...

(such as food, housing, water, medical care, etc., etc.)

...will somehow be achieved within a mere 33 years from now, and all given to us for free out of the generous benevolence of the owners* and rulers of the industries that created the robotic technology that took our wage-earning jobs away.

*(Owners such as the compassionate and empathetic Trumps, and Musks, and Kim Jong Uns of the world.)

Well, perhaps the free food part of your prediction might be possible if the earlier prediction from the 1973 movie "Soylent Green" comes true.

However, if after his consciousness is uploaded to a computer...

(sometime between now and the late 2050s)

...the indestructible emperor - Donald J. Trump - is still in charge ...

(of which he surely will be)

...then only the wealthy elite...

(the ones who never had "jobs" in the first place because they inherited their money)

...will be able to afford the tasty green wafers with the emperor's (once human*) image emblazoned on each side.

*(I'm thinkin' of that image of him raising his fist in defiance after that first assassination attempt. Or, better yet, the Soylent Green squares can be imprinted with his entire series of trading card images, each with varying price tags depending on which image makes him look the most glorious.)
_______

[BigMike]

Ok, well depending on which futurologist you ask, we are in the 4th or 5th or 6th industrial revolution right now. Your speculations about an AI that controls the entire global supply chain for every commodity and nullifies all need for human about is about 12 of those industrial revolutions away.

So we need to give it 6 industrial revolutions I guess before we have enough info to even guesstimate how society will have been changed by all the steps required to get us anywhere near an AI that can control everything. So when kids think ChatGPT is the funny thing from the olden times that grandma used to help her cheat on her homework, let's revisit.

Fair enough—you want a concrete claim? Here it is:

I predict that by the late 2050s, at least 80% of all human labor in the most developed countries will be gone. Not because people get lazy, but because they won’t be needed. AI, robotics, and fully autonomous systems—powered by clean, nearly free energy—will have taken over the vast majority of what we now consider “work.”

According to AI Overview...

The United Nations projects the world population to reach 10 billion by 2058.

To which I suggest that if according to your "...concrete claim..." that at least 80% of all human labor in the most developed countries will be gone by that time ("the late 2050s")...

...then one of the largest tasks that the mechanical appendages of AI and robotics will have to perform is the retrieval and disposal of all of the dead and rotting corpses of the millions (if not billions) of humans who will have died from not having any means of earning the money they need to buy food or to pay for housing and other necessities for survival.

And don't you dare try to hand us any horse crap predictions of how the meeting of all of our basic material needs...

(such as food, housing, water, medical care, etc., etc.)

...will somehow be achieved within a mere 33 years from now, and all given to us for free out of the generous benevolence of the owners* and rulers of the industries that created the robotic technology that took our wage-earning jobs away.

*(Owners such as the compassionate and empathetic Trumps, and Musks, and Kim Jong Uns of the world.)

Well, perhaps the free food part of your prediction might be possible if the earlier prediction from the 1973 movie "Soylent Green" comes true.

However, if after his consciousness is uploaded to a computer...

(sometime between now and the late 2050s)

...the indestructible emperor - Donald J. Trump - is still in charge ...

(of which he surely will be)

...then only the wealthy elite...

(the ones who never had "jobs" in the first place because they inherited their money)

...will be able to afford the tasty green wafers with the emperor's (once human*) image emblazoned on each side.

*(I'm thinkin' of that image of him raising his fist in defiance after that first assassination attempt. Or, better yet, the Soylent Green squares can be imprinted with his entire series of trading card images, each with varying price tags depending on which image makes him look the most glorious.)
_______

Seeds, that was one hell of a response—part warning, part satire, part apocalyptic slam poetry, and I’m honestly here for all of it. But let’s strip away the theatrics for a second and get down to the core concern, because buried under the Soylent Trump wafers and AI overlords is a very real and serious point:

What happens to billions of people when their labor is no longer needed, but ownership hasn’t caught up to fairness?

I agree with you—if the current wealth and power structure remains untouched, and if we just sit back and let automation roll over the labor economy without reforming distribution, then yeah, what we’re staring at isn’t a techno-utopia, it’s a digital feudalism. Or worse.

But that’s exactly why I’m pushing this conversation now. Not because I think Musk or Bezos or whoever will suddenly have a crisis of conscience and hand out homes and healthcare like party favors—but because if we don’t actively plan for how to restructure the economic model when labor loses its bargaining power, then we are heading toward catastrophe.

So no, I’m not predicting some magical benevolence from the ruling class. I’m warning that without political action, legal reform, and massive public pressure, the shift to a post-labor world could be the most violent economic upheaval in modern history. But the technology itself—AI, robotics, clean energy—isn’t the villain. It’s the system that controls it.

You don’t need to believe in AI salvation to see what’s coming. You just need to look at the curve:
- Labor is being displaced faster than it’s being replaced.
- Ownership is consolidating faster than wealth is being shared.
- And the people building the future—whether they mean to or not—are doing it without a seat at the table for most of us.

So the question isn’t whether food and shelter can be made free by 2058. They technically can be. The question is whether we’ll demand that outcome, or let the old powers keep charging us rent for sunlight and server space.

That’s the future I’m talking about. Not Soylent satire, not corporate utopia. Just physics, automation, and human choices. We can get it wrong. Or we can start talking about how to get it right—before we’re digging each other out from the rubble.

[Age]

Fair enough—you want a concrete claim? Here it is:

I predict that by the late 2050s, at least 80% of all human labor in the most developed countries will be gone. Not because people get lazy, but because they won’t be needed. AI, robotics, and fully autonomous systems—powered by clean, nearly free energy—will have taken over the vast majority of what we now consider “work.”

According to AI Overview...

The United Nations projects the world population to reach 10 billion by 2058.

To which I suggest that if according to your "...concrete claim..." that at least 80% of all human labor in the most developed countries will be gone by that time ("the late 2050s")...

...then one of the largest tasks that the mechanical appendages of AI and robotics will have to perform is the retrieval and disposal of all of the dead and rotting corpses of the millions (if not billions) of humans who will have died from not having any means of earning the money they need to buy food or to pay for housing and other necessities for survival.

And don't you dare try to hand us any horse crap predictions of how the meeting of all of our basic material needs...

(such as food, housing, water, medical care, etc., etc.)

...will somehow be achieved within a mere 33 years from now, and all given to us for free out of the generous benevolence of the owners* and rulers of the industries that created the robotic technology that took our wage-earning jobs away.

*(Owners such as the compassionate and empathetic Trumps, and Musks, and Kim Jong Uns of the world.)

Well, perhaps the free food part of your prediction might be possible if the earlier prediction from the 1973 movie "Soylent Green" comes true.

However, if after his consciousness is uploaded to a computer...

(sometime between now and the late 2050s)

...the indestructible emperor - Donald J. Trump - is still in charge ...

(of which he surely will be)

...then only the wealthy elite...

(the ones who never had "jobs" in the first place because they inherited their money)

...will be able to afford the tasty green wafers with the emperor's (once human*) image emblazoned on each side.

*(I'm thinkin' of that image of him raising his fist in defiance after that first assassination attempt. Or, better yet, the Soylent Green squares can be imprinted with his entire series of trading card images, each with varying price tags depending on which image makes him look the most glorious.)
_______

Seeds, that was one hell of a response—part warning, part satire, part apocalyptic slam poetry, and I’m honestly here for all of it. But let’s strip away the theatrics for a second and get down to the core concern, because buried under the Soylent Trump wafers and AI overlords is a very real and serious point:

What happens to billions of people when their labor is no longer needed, but ownership hasn’t caught up to fairness?

I agree with you—if the current wealth and power structure remains untouched, and if we just sit back and let automation roll over the labor economy without reforming distribution, then yeah, what we’re staring at isn’t a techno-utopia, it’s a digital feudalism. Or worse.

But that’s exactly why I’m pushing this conversation now. Not because I think Musk or Bezos or whoever will suddenly have a crisis of conscience and hand out homes and healthcare like party favors—but because if we don’t actively plan for how to restructure the economic model when labor loses its bargaining power, then we are heading toward catastrophe.

So no, I’m not predicting some magical benevolence from the ruling class. I’m warning that without political action, legal reform, and massive public pressure, the shift to a post-labor world could be the most violent economic upheaval in modern history. But the technology itself—AI, robotics, clean energy—isn’t the villain. It’s the system that controls it.

You don’t need to believe in AI salvation to see what’s coming. You just need to look at the curve:
- Labor is being displaced faster than it’s being replaced.
- Ownership is consolidating faster than wealth is being shared.
- And the people building the future—whether they mean to or not—are doing it without a seat at the table for most of us.

So the question isn’t whether food and shelter can be made free by 2058. They technically can be. The question is whether we’ll demand that outcome, or let the old powers keep charging us rent for sunlight and server space.

That’s the future I’m talking about. Not Soylent satire, not corporate utopia. Just physics, automation, and human choices. We can get it wrong. Or we can start talking about how to get it right—before we’re digging each other out from the rubble.

But it is you adult human beings who keep voting in the monetary wealthy and old powers that keep charging you adult human beings rent for sunlight and server space.

So why do you keep doing this?

[BigMike]

But it is you adult human beings who keep voting in the monetary wealthy and old powers that keep charging you adult human beings rent for sunlight and server space.

So why do you keep doing this?

Oh Age… I always suspected you were too young to vote. And honestly? This just confirms it.

You say “you adult human beings” like you're observing us from a high chair with a juice box in one hand and cosmic indignation in the other. But here's the thing—while you're busy diagnosing the problem like a teenage oracle, the rest of us are out here wrestling with the machinery you haven’t even had to tangle with yet. Voting isn’t a pure act of choice when the choices are rigged before the ballot hits your hand.

So yes, we keep getting boxed in by the same old powers. But that’s not because we want to pay rent for sunlight. It’s because the game is rigged long before the votes are cast—and once you’re old enough to vote, you’ll see just how many ways the house keeps winning.

Until then, keep asking questions. But maybe don’t assume the adults are enjoying the trap.

[Age]

But it is you adult human beings who keep voting in the monetary wealthy and old powers that keep charging you adult human beings rent for sunlight and server space.

So why do you keep doing this?

Oh Age… I always suspected you were too young to vote. And honestly? This just confirms it.

Once again 'we' have another example of 'confirmation bias' in prime form, here.

You say “you adult human beings” like you're observing us from a high chair with a juice box in one hand and cosmic indignation in the other. But here's the thing—while you're busy diagnosing the problem like a teenage oracle, the rest of us are out here wrestling with the machinery you haven’t even had to tangle with yet. Voting isn’t a pure act of choice when the choices are rigged before the ballot hits your hand.

This still does not take away from the Fact that it is you adult human beings who vote in these already monetary wealthy ones who will keep charging you adult human beings rent for sunlight and server space.

And, from this irrefutable Fact, if you adult beings can not still work out what needs to be changed, and done, here, then you actually deserve what you get.

So yes, we keep getting boxed in by the same old powers. But that’s not because we want to pay rent for sunlight. It’s because the game is rigged long before the votes are cast—and once you’re old enough to vote, you’ll see just how many ways the house keeps winning.

But, I already know why 'they' 'keep winning'. 'they' keep getting 'voted in', obviously.

But, if you want keep believing that 'the house will keep winning', then you will just keep on doing what you have been, correct?

And, you will keep getting what you believe will keep happening, right?

Until then, keep asking questions. But maybe don’t assume the adults are enjoying the trap.

Why would you have even begun to assume that I assumed that you adult human beings are enjoying 'this life', and 'the trap', which you keep, creating for "yourselves", here?

The fact that most of you hate, passionately, 'this life' that you keep on making and creating for "yourselves" is blatantly obvious.

But at least a few of you are 'laughing all the way to the banks', as some might say and write, here, now.

[seeds]

Seeds, that was one hell of a response—part warning, part satire, part apocalyptic slam poetry, and I’m honestly here for all of it. But let’s strip away the theatrics for a second and get down to the core concern, because buried under the Soylent Trump wafers and AI overlords is a very real and serious point:

What happens to billions of people when their labor is no longer needed, but ownership hasn’t caught up to fairness?

I agree with you—if the current wealth and power structure remains untouched, and if we just sit back and let automation roll over the labor economy without reforming distribution, then yeah, what we’re staring at isn’t a techno-utopia, it’s a digital feudalism. Or worse.

But that’s exactly why I’m pushing this conversation now. Not because I think Musk or Bezos or whoever will suddenly have a crisis of conscience and hand out homes and healthcare like party favors—but because if we don’t actively plan for how to restructure the economic model when labor loses its bargaining power, then we are heading toward catastrophe.

So no, I’m not predicting some magical benevolence from the ruling class. I’m warning that without political action, legal reform, and massive public pressure, the shift to a post-labor world could be the most violent economic upheaval in modern history. But the technology itself—AI, robotics, clean energy—isn’t the villain. It’s the system that controls it.

Yet, with all of those prerequisite conditions being laid out, you nevertheless still made what you stated as being a "concrete claim" that comes in the form of a prediction that asserts that at least 80% of all human labor in the most developed countries will be taken over by AI and robotics by the late 2050s.

So, how about you provide us with a clear and detailed explanation of how in the world you expect all of those, again, prerequisite conditions to be met between now and the late 2050s...

(again, a mere 30 something years from now)

...in order for your prediction to come true?

In other words,...

(and keeping in mind that this is your "concrete claim," which suggests that you are almost 100% certain that it will take place)

...tell us in what way you imagine the survival needs of the billions of jobless humans are going to be dealt with when, again, in approximately 33 years, your "concrete claim" will come to pass?

You don’t need to believe in AI salvation to see what’s coming. You just need to look at the curve:
- Labor is being displaced faster than it’s being replaced.
- Ownership is consolidating faster than wealth is being shared.
- And the people building the future—whether they mean to or not—are doing it without a seat at the table for most of us.

So the question isn’t whether food and shelter can be made free by 2058. They technically can be. The question is whether we’ll demand that outcome, or let the old powers keep charging us rent for sunlight and server space.

That’s the future I’m talking about. Not Soylent satire, not corporate utopia. Just physics, automation, and human choices. We can get it wrong. Or we can start talking about how to get it right—before we’re digging each other out from the rubble.

Well, all I can say is that based on your deterministic philosophy, isn't what we are presently experiencing simply an ongoing instance of natural "evolution" wherein a lower form of mindless, agentless, soulless automatons make way for higher forms of mindless, agentless, soulless automatons?

The point is, why not just acquiesce to what Spinoza called "natura naturans" (nature naturing), and "...let nature do what nature does..." — AI Overview.

I mean, if according to hardcore determinism, humans are nothing more than mindless, agentless, soulless "meat machines,"...

...then who are we to stand in the way of, in this case, what paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould might call the "punctuated equilibrium" or "punctuated evolution" (as in the more "abrupt" evolution) of more advanced (less squishy/less fragile/more intelligent) machines who are simply on the evolutionary path that leads to what physicist John von Neumann called the "Technological Singularity"? (See "AI Singularity" also.)

And perhaps even further than that, to an even loftier theory that suggests that the universe itself is on an evolutionary path that leads to what Pierre Teilhard de Chardin called the "Omega Point" (look it up).
_______

[BigMike]

Seeds, that was one hell of a response—part warning, part satire, part apocalyptic slam poetry, and I’m honestly here for all of it. But let’s strip away the theatrics for a second and get down to the core concern, because buried under the Soylent Trump wafers and AI overlords is a very real and serious point:

What happens to billions of people when their labor is no longer needed, but ownership hasn’t caught up to fairness?

I agree with you—if the current wealth and power structure remains untouched, and if we just sit back and let automation roll over the labor economy without reforming distribution, then yeah, what we’re staring at isn’t a techno-utopia, it’s a digital feudalism. Or worse.

But that’s exactly why I’m pushing this conversation now. Not because I think Musk or Bezos or whoever will suddenly have a crisis of conscience and hand out homes and healthcare like party favors—but because if we don’t actively plan for how to restructure the economic model when labor loses its bargaining power, then we are heading toward catastrophe.

So no, I’m not predicting some magical benevolence from the ruling class. I’m warning that without political action, legal reform, and massive public pressure, the shift to a post-labor world could be the most violent economic upheaval in modern history. But the technology itself—AI, robotics, clean energy—isn’t the villain. It’s the system that controls it.

Yet, with all of those prerequisite conditions being laid out, you nevertheless still made what you stated as being a "concrete claim" that comes in the form of a prediction that asserts that at least 80% of all human labor in the most developed countries will be taken over by AI and robotics by the late 2050s.

So, how about you provide us with a clear and detailed explanation of how in the world you expect all of those, again, prerequisite conditions to be met between now and the late 2050s...

(again, a mere 30 something years from now)

...in order for your prediction to come true?

In other words,...

(and keeping in mind that this is your "concrete claim," which suggests that you are almost 100% certain that it will take place)

...tell us in what way you imagine the survival needs of the billions of jobless humans are going to be dealt with when, again, in approximately 33 years, your "concrete claim" will come to pass?

You don’t need to believe in AI salvation to see what’s coming. You just need to look at the curve:
- Labor is being displaced faster than it’s being replaced.
- Ownership is consolidating faster than wealth is being shared.
- And the people building the future—whether they mean to or not—are doing it without a seat at the table for most of us.

So the question isn’t whether food and shelter can be made free by 2058. They technically can be. The question is whether we’ll demand that outcome, or let the old powers keep charging us rent for sunlight and server space.

That’s the future I’m talking about. Not Soylent satire, not corporate utopia. Just physics, automation, and human choices. We can get it wrong. Or we can start talking about how to get it right—before we’re digging each other out from the rubble.

Well, all I can say is that based on your deterministic philosophy, isn't what we are presently experiencing simply an ongoing instance of natural "evolution" wherein a lower form of mindless, agentless, soulless automatons make way for higher forms of mindless, agentless, soulless automatons?

The point is, why not just acquiesce to what Spinoza called "natura naturans" (nature naturing), and "...let nature do what nature does..." — AI Overview.

I mean, if according to hardcore determinism, humans are nothing more than mindless, agentless, soulless "meat machines,"...

...then who are we to stand in the way of, in this case, what paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould might call the "punctuated equilibrium" or "punctuated evolution" (as in the more "abrupt" evolution) of more advanced (less squishy/less fragile/more intelligent) machines who are simply on the evolutionary path that leads to what physicist John von Neumann called the "Technological Singularity"? (See "AI Singularity" also.)

And perhaps even further than that, to an even loftier theory that suggests that the universe itself is on an evolutionary path that leads to what Pierre Teilhard de Chardin called the "Omega Point" (look it up).
_______

Alright, Seeds, you’re not just tossing softballs here—you’re pitching fast and wild, and I appreciate it. So let’s dig in carefully, because you’re raising several really sharp points:

First, about my "concrete claim" of 80% labor displacement by the late 2050s:
You’re asking: how exactly do I imagine survival needs being met for billions of people when this happens?
Good question. Here's the honest answer: I don't think the survival needs will automatically be met.
I'm not predicting that society will solve it neatly—I’m predicting that the technological capability to displace 80% of jobs will exist and will be widely deployed. Those are two very different things.

Technology moves under its own momentum—capitalism demands efficiency, and as AI/robotics/energy tech scale up, companies will adopt them ruthlessly. Whether governments and societies adapt in time is the real wild card.

- If we act wisely: Universal Basic Income (UBI), automated public services, community-owned energy and food systems could keep people fed, housed, and healthy.
- If we don't: Widespread homelessness, desperation, political instability, and even violent upheaval.

The tech trend is happening regardless. How we survive it depends entirely on whether political reform can keep pace with technological disruption. History shows we’re often slow—but sometimes existential pressure accelerates change in a big way (see: New Deal, WWII mobilization).

Second, about determinism and your Spinoza/Gould/Teilhard de Chardin references:
Brilliant move bringing that in. Let me walk carefully here:

Yes—if we accept a hard deterministic worldview, then all of this is natural evolution. Human biological machines giving way to synthetic ones is just another unfolding of cause and effect, another step in the blind procession of natura naturans.

But here's the rub: determinism doesn’t mean fatalism.
Even if our actions are caused, they are still causes themselves. Meaning, what we choose to do—even if it's determined—is still part of shaping the future chain of events. There's no "standing aside" from evolution. We are evolution.

So when I say we should actively plan for the coming upheaval, I’m not suggesting we can "opt out" of determinism. I’m saying that our planning, our ethics, our resistance, our reforms are all part of nature’s unfolding too.

In that sense, pushing for equitable systems, humane outcomes, and thoughtful transitions isn't defying determinism—it’s living it out, consciously, instead of passively.

Third, on the AI Singularity/Omega Point ideas:
Sure, the idea that intelligence (whether biological or synthetic) is converging toward some ultimate cosmic endpoint—a point of total knowledge or consciousness—is fascinating. But that's still speculation layered on top of speculation.

Right now, the pressing reality isn’t cosmic singularities—it’s whether flesh-and-blood people are going to eat, live, and thrive in the next few decades while massive technological disruption is underway.

Summary:
- I predict 80% labor displacement because technological and economic trends point there.
- I do not predict an automatic utopia fixing that displacement.
- Whether it ends in flourishing or collapse depends on whether we step up—which itself would be a deterministic event, not some magical break from nature.
- And while cosmic evolution is a cool thought, the here-and-now demands urgent, grounded action.

You really want to take this to the philosophical mat? I’m happy to keep going.
But I’ll ask you back: Wouldn't conscious, compassionate human action—fighting for fairness in a deterministic universe—be the most natural expression of what it means to be human in the first place?

[FlashDangerpants]

Fair enough—you want a concrete claim? Here it is:

I predict that by the late 2050s, at least 80% of all human labor in the most developed countries will be gone. Not because people get lazy, but because they won’t be needed. AI, robotics, and fully autonomous systems—powered by clean, nearly free energy—will have taken over the vast majority of what we now consider “work.”

That’s not twelve industrial revolutions away. It’s one very fast-moving one that’s already underway. So the real question isn’t if we revisit this—it’s whether we’ll be ready by the time that conversation becomes unavoidable.

The goalposts really went for a wander didn't they?

I am looking at that reduced claim, and comparing it to the title of this thread, and wondering if you can account for any slippage?

Good catch—and fair to call that out.

But I don’t see it as slippage so much as scaling the argument appropriately over time. The thread's original claim—that AI, robotics, and clean energy will end labor and money entirely—is still where I think we’re headed in the long term. The 80% prediction by the late 2050s? That’s the threshold where the system starts tipping irreversibly in that direction. Not the final state—just the turning point.

Think of it like glaciers melting. The early signs don’t mean all the ice is gone—but once you're 80% in, the trajectory is set, and there's no going back.

So no, I’m not moving the goalposts. I’m just showing you where they’re currently standing—and where they’re heading fast.

So it's not US per se that needs to prepare for this zero cost future, it's us in 2057. We don't know enough about them just yet to even prep for becoming those guys though. What comprises this 20% of work that isn't done by robots? Are there 20% of people stuck working junior doctor hours while everyone else is homeless and wretched, or is there some Keynesian division of labour going on already so that everyone has access to work and working one or two shifts per week is sufficient to live the good life now that automation has ensured everything costs sod all?

Your aversion to detail derails your project.

[BigMike]

The goalposts really went for a wander didn't they?

I am looking at that reduced claim, and comparing it to the title of this thread, and wondering if you can account for any slippage?

Good catch—and fair to call that out.

But I don’t see it as slippage so much as scaling the argument appropriately over time. The thread's original claim—that AI, robotics, and clean energy will end labor and money entirely—is still where I think we’re headed in the long term. The 80% prediction by the late 2050s? That’s the threshold where the system starts tipping irreversibly in that direction. Not the final state—just the turning point.

Think of it like glaciers melting. The early signs don’t mean all the ice is gone—but once you're 80% in, the trajectory is set, and there's no going back.

So no, I’m not moving the goalposts. I’m just showing you where they’re currently standing—and where they’re heading fast.

So it's not US per se that needs to prepare for this zero cost future, it's us in 2057. We don't know enough about them just yet to even prep for becoming those guys though. What comprises this 20% of work that isn't done by robots? Are there 20% of people stuck working junior doctor hours while everyone else is homeless and wretched, or is there some Keynesian division of labour going on already so that everyone has access to work and working one or two shifts per week is sufficient to live the good life now that automation has ensured everything costs sod all?

Your aversion to detail derails your project.

Alright, fair point—you want detail, not big-picture speculation. So here’s the roadmap, broken down by decade, showing exactly why I stand by the 80% automation prediction by the late 2050s. This isn't sci-fi or hand-waving; it’s a synthesis of current trends, credible projections, and real-world developments that are already shaping the future.

2025–2030: Laying the Groundwork
This phase is already unfolding. AI and robotics are improving fast—machine learning systems are becoming more autonomous, and robots are entering more industries (healthcare, logistics, agriculture). Meanwhile, solar and wind are becoming cost-competitive, and battery tech is improving, creating the energy foundation needed to power large-scale automation.

Example: Tesla’s gigafactories are already blending AI, robotics, and solar energy to run highly automated, clean-energy production lines.


2030–2040: Scaling Up
This is when automation starts showing up in ways that impact daily life.
- Self-driving vehicles, drones, and automated delivery systems start wiping out entire categories of jobs—long-haul drivers, warehouse sorters, delivery staff.
- Energy breakthroughs (like progress in fusion research through ITER) begin reshaping global power infrastructure.
- Mass-scale production and logistics increasingly run without human labor.

Example: Waymo’s autonomous vehicles—already functional—will likely dominate urban transport by 2040. No need for taxi, bus, or rideshare drivers anymore.


2040–2050: Integration and Optimization
Here’s where that "irreversible tipping point" comes into view.
- Robots take over dangerous or repetitive jobs in construction, elder care, and security.
- AI handles diagnostics, scheduling, customer service, basic legal processing, and financial analysis—tasks that currently employ millions.
- Fusion, if successfully commercialized, adds massive, clean power to the grid, fueling everything from smart homes to automated public infrastructure.

Example: Boston Dynamics’ robots—by now far more advanced—will likely be a fixture in sectors that still rely on human physical labor.

2050 and Beyond: The New Normal
This is where we cross into full-system transformation:
- The cost of producing basics—food, water, shelter, transportation, energy—approaches zero.
- Work exists, but not out of necessity. It’s creative, supervisory, or voluntary.
- The 20% of remaining jobs? Likely clustered in complex caregiving, high-touch services, and deeply human creative or philosophical roles.
- Education, law, and governance restructure themselves around a post-labor, post-money world. Universal Basic Income or something like it becomes essential to stabilize society.

Example: ITER or its successors are online, and fusion is feeding clean, abundant energy into fully automated societies.

So to answer your question directly:
Yes, it's us who needs to prep for this future. Not people in 2057—us, now.

Why? Because the infrastructure, legislation, and cultural adaptation required to handle that tipping point take time. If we wait until the 2050s to figure this out, the fallout will already be underway.

And your final question—what does that last 20% of work look like? Probably things like:
- Psychological care
- Early childhood education
- High-concept design and innovation
- Governance and conflict mediation
- The arts, storytelling, and philosophy

In other words, the stuff machines can’t fake well—because it requires lived experience, empathy, or cultural context.

So no, this isn’t goalpost shifting. This is the timeline, mapped out. You wanted detail? There it is. Now let’s talk about what to do with it.

[phyllo]

So what are people going to do all day in this new world?

[BigMike]

So what are people going to do all day in this new world?

That’s a crucial question, Phyllo—and one that sits squarely in the upper levels of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Once food, shelter, and safety are guaranteed through automation and abundant energy, people will naturally turn their focus toward belonging, esteem, and self-actualization.

In a post-work world, meaning won’t come from clocking in—it’ll come from connection, creativity, curiosity, and contribution. People will dive into the arts, education, caregiving, exploration, philosophy, and community-building—not because they have to, but because they can.

That said, we shouldn’t let the “what will people do?” question distract us from the more immediate and urgent task: preparing for the transition. We’re heading into a phase of mass unemployment—not because people won’t want to work, but because there simply won’t be enough jobs left that require human labor.

So we need to plan for both realities at once:
- A near-future where millions are displaced by automation and need immediate economic support and purpose.
- And a long-term future where society is structured around post-work principles—where fulfillment isn’t tied to employment, but to human flourishing.

If we don’t start preparing now, the gap between those two phases could be devastating. But if we do—if we navigate it right—this could be one of the most liberating transitions in human history.