Space-travelling aliens - Earthlike?

[LarryLynx]

So, I have pondered about the possibility that intelligent aliens exists. Let's assume they do, as they are mathemathically likely. Let's dive in!

If these aliens would ever visit us, I have heard famous scientists say that we are too locked-in on aliens being similar to earthly beings and that we should be open to the possibility that otherworldly organic life looks very different from ourselves.

Frankly, I find this unlikely. See, evolution was a very slow process in which we had rather inefficient beginnings. The first organisms had primitive limbs, eyes and inefficient movement. What evolved early was bilateral symmetry. An identical right side and left side. Even when AI:s have created shapes to orient in 3D-space freely, they eventually become bilateral as having uneven body structure shifts center of gravity and makes it hard to move. Furthermore, almost every animal has a head, as this reduces nerve length from our main organs to the brain and increases reaction time, as well as gives many organisms the possibility to evade the sensory organs actively in battle and to point them in other directions for detection. A mouth also seems very likely, as digestion is almost a given for movement. Coeloms or mouths are needed for nutrient internalization. Solar energy would likely not provide efficient enough wattage per square feet to keep an organism moving at a pace wherein it is not consumed by other organisms that digest matter instead.

Dolphins and elephants are very smart animals, but they do not have a society. This is mainly due to their intelligence being somewhat different, but for the dolphin specifically, it would seem that they do not have a sufficient limb for manipulating objects. This is a must for any social animal to build complex structures. Besides, they live in water, which makes general chemistry challenging. The starting point of a civilization, the fire, is also hindered by the environment. So it would seem most likely a space fareing organism is located on land. It needs to be social, as it is impossible to reach a point wherein an organism creates something posessing the complexity of a intergalactic space ship without previous collaboration.

Enough examples for now. in summary, I would expect a bilateral organism with a head, a coelom, an anus, one or several arms with digits or manipulative pins (or something similar), for it to be land-living or floating, most likely eyes and a mouth for communication placed on a head. It sounds very earth-like because things end up that way out of pure efficiency in every step of the way. Whilst an organic space-travelling alien might lack a few of these traits, the more of them you remove, the less likely I would consider this species to be if they visited us via space ship. This theory excludes robotic/manufactured life.

What do you think about this theory?

[Impenitent]

advanced aliens are probably non-corporeal

-Imp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q73LMKKxbc

[Walker]

advanced aliens are probably non-corporeal

-Imp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q73LMKKxbc

They’re Commissioned.

Materialism certainly is integral to devotional bhakti. A more intellectual approach to materialism is: every poor person has something to give to God. Ask not what God can do for you, ask what you can do for God. Sounds familiar.

[alan1000]

I have seen articles which argue that, if we ever have direct contact with alien species, they are likely to be remarkably similar to ourselves. The reason is the biological tendency to "convergent evolution".

They will probably have two eyes, horizontally opposed, because stereoscopic vision in the horizontal plane is critical for survival, and investment in additional eyes would be over-capitalisation. Their physiology will be vertically-oriented, like ours, and bipedal, because that has proved to be the optimum for high-speed long-distance locomotion. Their eyes, like ours, will be recessed in the skull, for protection from impact.

There is a desert mole in northern Australia which is visually indistinguishable from a north African desert mole. But they are utterly different species. The reason is, convergent evolution.

[Age]

So, I have pondered about the possibility that intelligent aliens exists. Let's assume they do, as they are mathemathically likely. Let's dive in!

There is NO so-called 'mathematically likely', here.

If some thing is .0000001% 'likely' of being a possibility of a 'chance' to exist, then that thing is, still, 'mathematically likely'. BUT, some thing being just so-called 'mathematically likely', to exist, has NO bearing, AT ALL, on IF that thing actually does exist, or not.

Also, how are you defining the words 'alien', and, 'intelligent', here, exactly?

If these aliens would ever visit us, I have heard famous scientists say that we are too locked-in on aliens being similar to earthly beings and that we should be open to the possibility that otherworldly organic life looks very different from ourselves.

Lost of so-called 'famous' ones have said things, but there is nothing at all in just because a so-claimed 'famous one' said some thing, then that provides more accuracy to what is being said.

It would be BEST if human beings were OPEN, all of the time, to any and every possibility.

Frankly, I find this unlikely. See, evolution was a very slow process in which we had rather inefficient beginnings.

But there is NO fast NOR slow in relation to 'evolution', itself.

ALL things just evolve AT 'the rate' that they do.

The first organisms had primitive limbs, eyes and inefficient movement.

Just like all of you organisms have so-called 'primitive' limbs, eyes, and inefficient movement to 'further evolved' organisms.

What evolved early was bilateral symmetry. An identical right side and left side. Even when AI:s have created shapes to orient in 3D-space freely, they eventually become bilateral as having uneven body structure shifts center of gravity and makes it hard to move. Furthermore, almost every animal has a head, as this reduces nerve length from our main organs to the brain and increases reaction time, as well as gives many organisms the possibility to evade the sensory organs actively in battle and to point them in other directions for detection. A mouth also seems very likely, as digestion is almost a given for movement. Coeloms or mouths are needed for nutrient internalization. Solar energy would likely not provide efficient enough wattage per square feet to keep an organism moving at a pace wherein it is not consumed by other organisms that digest matter instead.

Dolphins and elephants are very smart animals, but they do not have a society. This is mainly due to their intelligence being somewhat different, but for the dolphin specifically, it would seem that they do not have a sufficient limb for manipulating objects. This is a must for any social animal to build complex structures.

1. What is the supposed 'different intelligence', here, exactly?

2. Since when has the ability to build so-called 'complex structures' been a MUST for ANY 'social animal'?

Besides, they live in water, which makes general chemistry challenging.

Really?

If yes, then how, exactly?

The starting point of a civilization, the fire, is also hindered by the environment.

Are you suggesting, here, that lighting fires underwater is hard, or hindered?

So it would seem most likely a space fareing organism is located on land.

Okay. Unless, of course, 'they' just created a weather filled space ship, right?

But, if 'we' are going on 'likely', only, here, then what is the 'likely chance' of ANY thing, here?

It needs to be social, as it is impossible to reach a point wherein an organism creates something posessing the complexity of a intergalactic space ship without previous collaboration.

But, 'an intergalactic space ship' is NOT really that complex, at all, really.

Enough examples for now. in summary, I would expect a bilateral organism with a head, a coelom, an anus, one or several arms with digits or manipulative pins (or something similar), for it to be land-living or floating, most likely eyes and a mouth for communication placed on a head.

Okay, but let 'us' not forget that so-called "famous scientists" that you should be open, to other possibilities'. But if you do not want to be, then that is okay, and fine, with 'us'.

It sounds very earth-like because things end up that way out of pure efficiency in every step of the way. Whilst an organic space-travelling alien might lack a few of these traits, the more of them you remove, the less likely I would consider this species to be if they visited us via space ship. This theory excludes robotic/manufactured life.

What do you think about this theory?

That 'this theory' is just like every other 'theory', and is just what you are guessing, only.

[Noax]

If these aliens would ever visit us, I have heard famous scientists say that we are too locked-in on aliens being similar to earthly beings and that we should be open to the possibility that otherworldly organic life looks very different from ourselves.

1) Aliens existing is indeed mathematically likely. Them visiting us (or v-v) is not.
2) Yes, they'd likely be more different than what is typical of a hollywood budget. Even presuming them organic is unreasonable.

The first organisms had primitive limbs, eyes and inefficient movement.

Did they now? It took more than 2/3 of the time from the first life to today before any of those features evolved. And ditto for bilateral symmetry.

Furthermore, almost every animal has a head, as this reduces nerve length from our main organs to the brain and increases reaction time

Main organs are in the torso. Makes sense to put the brain there instead of high and unprotected. Faster reaction time too as the limbs are closer to the decisions made. Brains are in the head to shorted distance to sensory input, expensive wiring. Optimal setup is to put sensory in the torso with all else, making say an octopus the most efficient. They're damn smart too.

Dolphins and elephants are very smart animals, but they do not have a society.

Don't they now?

... organism creates something posessing the complexity of a intergalactic space ship without previous collaboration.

Presumes a ship is how it's going to travel between worlds. Spores makes more sense. Humans need to think more along these lines.

It sounds very earth-like because things end up that way out of pure efficiency in every step of the way.

Or because all Earth life has a common ancestor, and also a similar environment.

This theory excludes robotic/manufactured life.

Why? You're manufactured. Who is to say that a line needs to be drawn. If it gets here and isn't from us, then it's an alien, having most of the features you asked for, but maybe not a mouth.

[alan1000]

advanced aliens are probably non-corporeal

-Imp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q73LMKKxbc

Your arguments?

[LuckyR]

This thread is an excellent example of the natural bias towards one's own experience. That is, the unspoken assumption is a commentary that life would evolve on a rocky, ~1 G, planet. And why not? One cannot know what one doesn't know.

[Impenitent]

advanced aliens are probably non-corporeal

-Imp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q73LMKKxbc

Your arguments?

photons travel at the speed of light but they have no mass

https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/einste ... %20do%20so.

-Imp

[Martin Peter Clarke]

advanced aliens are probably non-corporeal

-Imp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q73LMKKxbc

There ent none. 'We’re as Smart as the Universe Gets' ISSUE 164 OCTOBER / NOVEMBER 2024 As Darwin said, by implication. Maynard Smith picked up that ball and ran it to touch 138 years later.

And no matter how smart we posit, none of them is interstellar space-travelling. Because Fermi. Which also proves, of course, that it is impossible to download minds to silicon. If it were possible, someone(s) would have done it a hundred million if not a billion years ago and cruised the galaxy. No one ever gets to Kardashev I. Everyone stops at Kardashian 0.

Martin

[Martin Peter Clarke]

So, 'Scientists find 'strongest evidence yet' of life on distant planet' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c39jj9vkr34o.

It's gone from 1 sigma to 3 in 18 months!!!!

Only 2 way from 5!!!!!!!

Which is still not take me to your leader.

"The Cambridge group has found that the atmosphere seems to contain the chemical signature of at least one of two molecules that are associated with life: dimethyl sulphide (DMS) and dimethyl disulphide (DMDS). On Earth, these gases are produced by marine phytoplankton and bacteria.
...
"The amount we estimate of this gas in the atmosphere is thousands of times higher than what we have on Earth," he said.

"So, if the association with life is real, then this planet will be teeming with life," he added."

That concentration is extremely suspicious. Not of life.

DMS & DMDS are very simple compounds. DMS is easily synthesized in industry by treating hydrogen sulphide with excess methanol (qv below) over an aluminium oxide catalyst:

2 CH3OH + H2S → (CH3)2S + 2 H2O

Paraphrased from wiki.

"Carbon monoxide and hydrogen react over a catalyst to produce methanol. Today, the most widely used catalyst is a mixture of copper and zinc oxides, supported on alumina, as first used by ICI in 1966. At 5–10 MPa (50–100 atm) and 250 °C (482 °F)...

CO + 2 H2 → CH3OH" wiki

There will be geochemistry that can do all of this one way and another.

And I don't doubt for one moment that our infinitesimal universe is teeming with life.

PS So, it's a planetary atmosphere rich in CO, H, H2S, H2O with a lithosphere rich in CuO, ZnO, Al2O3, until proven otherwise. With a frozen hydrosphere if any.

'In 2019, the presence of water vapour in K2-18b's atmosphere was reported, drawing scientific attention to this system. In 2023, the JWST detected carbon dioxide and methane in the atmosphere of K2-18b. JWST’s data has been variously interpreted as indicating a water ocean planet with a hydrogen-rich atmosphere, and a gas-rich mini-Neptune. K2-18b has been studied as a potential habitable world that, temperature aside [Temperature 265 ± 5 K (−8 ± 5 °C)], more closely resembles a gas planet like Uranus or Neptune than Earth.' wiki

[Impenitent]

advanced aliens are probably non-corporeal

-Imp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q73LMKKxbc

There ent none. 'We’re as Smart as the Universe Gets' ISSUE 164 OCTOBER / NOVEMBER 2024 As Darwin said, by implication. Maynard Smith picked up that ball and ran it to touch 138 years later.

And no matter how smart we posit, none of them is interstellar space-travelling. Because Fermi. Which also proves, of course, that it is impossible to download minds to silicon. If it were possible, someone(s) would have done it a hundred million if not a billion years ago and cruised the galaxy. No one ever gets to Kardashev I. Everyone stops at Kardashian 0.

Martin

minds are downloaded to silicone all the time

"revved up like a deuce, another runner in the night..."

-Imp

[Martin Peter Clarke]

advanced aliens are probably non-corporeal

-Imp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q73LMKKxbc

There ent none. 'We’re as Smart as the Universe Gets' ISSUE 164 OCTOBER / NOVEMBER 2024 As Darwin said, by implication. Maynard Smith picked up that ball and ran it to touch 138 years later.

And no matter how smart we posit, none of them is interstellar space-travelling. Because Fermi. Which also proves, of course, that it is impossible to download minds to silicon. If it were possible, someone(s) would have done it a hundred million if not a billion years ago and cruised the galaxy. No one ever gets to Kardashev I. Everyone stops at Kardashian 0.

Martin

minds are downloaded to silicone all the time

"revved up like a deuce, another runner in the night..."

-Imp

Manfred Mann! Deuce Coupe of course. Yeah I'll buy that. Rubber, not reduced sand.

[Phil8659]

Space-travelling aliens - Earthlike?

You mean round, dirty, wet and fuzzy?

WTF?

Maybe Human Beans, like the Body Snatchers?

Or maybe like the Hollywood's Morons in a mask and tights?

[Martin Peter Clarke]

advanced aliens are probably non-corporeal

-Imp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q73LMKKxbc

Your arguments?

photons travel at the speed of light but they have no mass

https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/einste ... %20do%20so.

-Imp

If I may, how is that an argument for non-corporeal (and aren't photons corpuscles?) life? How does life get to be non-corporeal, whatever that is? Just use the fields model? Intentional life becomes fields? Which? How?