Hadiths are not Valid for Islam-proper [re 4:59]

[Veritas Aequitas]

Hadiths are not Valid for Islam-proper [re 4:59], only the Quran is valid as a 'constitution' of Islam which contain the full terms of the covenant believers enter with Allah.

Here is the argument from ChatGpt:

Obey Allah and Obey the messenger are TWO entities?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DSpNELb1u0
Abstract below; for details listen to the video

Question: is the phrase obey Allah and obey the messenger referring to one or two sources the sectarians I.E the sunis and Shiites love to misinterpret the three Quran verses containing the phrase obey Allah and obey the messenger to mean obey the Quran and obey their sunna of the Prophet let us start with and analyze using the Quran as its own dictionary to verify whether their claim is merited or not?
ChatGpt said:
let's analyze Quran 4:59 using the Quran as its own dictionary to determine whether the sectarian claim that obey Allah and obey the messenger means obey the Quran and obey the Sunnah of the Prophet is merited .
Step one understanding the verse …..

final verdict
4:59 confirms that obedience is exclusively to Allah's laws in the Quran
there is no mention of hadiths or an extra quranic Sunnah
sectarian claims contradict the quran's insistence on it being fully detailed 6:114

I asked ChatGpt the same question and the answer below:

Here is an analysis following a similar step-by-step approach to determine whether "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger" in Quran 4:59 refers to two distinct sources or a single source, using the Quran as its own reference.

Step 1: Understanding Quran 4:59
The verse states:

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. If you disagree on anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is best and most suitable for final determination." (Quran 4:59)

Sectarians claim that "obey Allah" refers to following the Quran, and "obey the Messenger" means following the Sunnah (including hadith). To verify whether this claim is justified, we analyze the Quran itself.

Step 2: Analyzing the Quranic Use of "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger"
The Quran repeatedly emphasizes that it is fully detailed and contains all necessary guidance (6:114, 12:111).

Nowhere does the Quran instruct believers to follow an extra-Quranic Sunnah. Instead, it refers to the Messenger as a conduit for delivering Allah’s message (5:99).

Step 3: Checking If "Obey the Messenger" Implies a Separate Source
The Quran clarifies that the Prophet judged by the Quran alone (5:44-50).

Quran 25:30 records the Prophet saying:

“My Lord, my people have abandoned this Quran.”
This suggests that true obedience to the Messenger is adherence to the Quran, not to any additional external texts.

Step 4: Clarifying the Phrase "Refer to Allah and the Messenger"
The verse commands believers to refer disputes to Allah and the Messenger (4:59).

In practice, while the Prophet was alive, people sought his judgment. However, his judgments were based on the Quran (6:114).

Since the Prophet is no longer physically present, referring to "the Messenger" today logically means referring to his preserved guidance, which is the Quran alone.

Final Verdict
Quran 4:59 confirms that obedience is exclusively to Allah's laws in the Quran. There is no mention of hadiths or an extra-Quranic Sunnah as an independent authority. This conclusion aligns with the Quran’s insistence on being fully detailed and self-sufficient (6:114).

Thus, the sectarian claim that "obey Allah and obey the Messenger" means following both the Quran and hadith contradicts the Quran’s teachings.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Debunking Mufti Menk's False Claims: A Response to His Attacks on Quran-Alone Followers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pGoemLrDhw&t=380s

This is a counter to the Mufti's claim that the Hadiths are imperative for Islam and the Quran-Alone Muslims are false Muslims.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Notes:

[attofishpi]

Notes:

Yes, it's important to Note the following:

In Arbabic, Allah means "GOD"
In English, Allah means "SATAN"

[godelian]

the Mufti's claim that the Hadiths are imperative for Islam

The mufti takes the mainstream position that the prophetic Sunnah is mandatory interpretation. This is indeed itself, necessarily, an interpretation.

[Veritas Aequitas]

the Mufti's claim that the Hadiths are imperative for Islam

The mufti takes the mainstream position that the prophetic Sunnah is mandatory interpretation. This is indeed itself, necessarily, an interpretation.

Here's from ChatGpt:

Your interlocutor is asserting that the mandatory nature of the prophetic Sunnah is itself an interpretation rather than an inherent Quranic requirement. This presents a key opening for critique. Here’s how you can respond:

1. Exposing the Circularity of Their Argument
Their claim boils down to this:

Sunni scholars, muftis, and imams agree that the Sunnah is mandatory.

This consensus itself constitutes an interpretation that makes the Sunnah binding.

This is circular reasoning because it assumes what it is trying to prove. If the validity of the Sunnah relies on interpretation, then it is not self-evident from divine revelation (the Quran). If it were self-evident, interpretation wouldn’t be required to justify it.

Thus, their argument concedes that the binding nature of Sunnah is not directly from Allah, but an interpretive stance by Sunni scholars—which is precisely your point.

2. Interpretation is Not Authority
Your rebuttal should emphasize that human interpretation is not divine authority:

The Quran is clear and self-explanatory (6:114, 12:111).

It is fully detailed and requires no supplementary rulings (6:114, 5:3).

If the Sunnah were truly mandatory, the Quran would have explicitly commanded it.

Instead, their entire justification hinges on what scholars believe and interpret, not on an explicit Quranic requirement. This undermines their claim that following hadiths is divinely mandated.

3. Interpretation is Subjective, Not Divine Law
Even among Sunni scholars, interpretations differ on:

Which hadiths are authentic (Sunni vs. Shia collections)

The role of hadith in Islamic law (Hadith-rejection movements exist)

Which hadiths take precedence (Contradictions in Sahih collections)

If the binding authority of hadith depends on interpretation, then it is subjective and man-made, not part of an immutable divine covenant (Mithaq).

4. Logical Conclusion: The Quran Alone is the Divine Standard
The only logically consistent position is that:

The Quran is fully detailed and preserved (6:114, 15:9).

The Prophet’s role was only to deliver the message (5:99).

Any claim beyond the Quran is human interpretation, not divine law.

Thus, their entire premise collapses because the obligation to follow hadiths depends on scholars' consensus, not divine revelation.

Would You Like Further Refinements?
I can expand with Quranic references, logical breakdowns, or historical examples of hadith-based contradictions. Let me know what level of detail you prefer!

[godelian]

The Quran is clear and self-explanatory (6:114, 12:111).
It is fully detailed and requires no supplementary rulings (6:114, 5:3).

Yes, but that still does not mean that the Quran would be tautological.

ChatGPT: In logic, only tautologies do not require interpretation

Yes, that's correct! In logic, tautologies are statements that are always true regardless of interpretation. This means their truth does not depend on the meanings assigned to their components or the structure of the world—they are true solely due to their logical form.

Non-tautological statements, on the other hand, require interpretation because their truth depends on the actual meaning or values assigned to their components.

Are there theories that consist of only tautologies?

Yes, but such theories would be trivial in a certain sense. A theory in logic is a set of sentences closed under logical consequence. If a theory consists only of tautologies, then every sentence in the theory is true in every interpretation, meaning the theory does not convey any substantive information about any particular subject.

Why This is Not Useful for Most Applications

A meaningful theory in mathematics, science, or philosophy typically includes non-tautological statements that impose structure on a domain. If a theory contains only tautologies, it does not rule out any possible scenarios, making it uninteresting for applications where distinguishing between true and false statements is necessary.

Conclusion

Yes, there are theories that consist only of tautologies, but they are of limited practical interest because they provide no constraints or specific information about any domain.

The reason why the Quran requires interpretation is because it is not tautological.

Non-tautological sentences always require interpretation. These non-tautological sentences are the commitment that a theory makes, and the risk that it takes, that no interpretation can be found to satisfy the theory. Truth only exists in the context of commitment, associated risk, and interpretation.

[Veritas Aequitas]

The Quran is clear and self-explanatory (6:114, 12:111).
It is fully detailed and requires no supplementary rulings (6:114, 5:3).

Yes, but that still does not mean that the Quran would be tautological.

ChatGPT: In logic, only tautologies do not require interpretation

Yes, that's correct! In logic, tautologies are statements that are always true regardless of interpretation. This means their truth does not depend on the meanings assigned to their components or the structure of the world—they are true solely due to their logical form.

Non-tautological statements, on the other hand, require interpretation because their truth depends on the actual meaning or values assigned to their components.

Are there theories that consist of only tautologies?

Yes, but such theories would be trivial in a certain sense. A theory in logic is a set of sentences closed under logical consequence. If a theory consists only of tautologies, then every sentence in the theory is true in every interpretation, meaning the theory does not convey any substantive information about any particular subject.

Why This is Not Useful for Most Applications

A meaningful theory in mathematics, science, or philosophy typically includes non-tautological statements that impose structure on a domain. If a theory contains only tautologies, it does not rule out any possible scenarios, making it uninteresting for applications where distinguishing between true and false statements is necessary.

Conclusion

Yes, there are theories that consist only of tautologies, but they are of limited practical interest because they provide no constraints or specific information about any domain.

The reason why the Quran requires interpretation is because it is not tautological.

Non-tautological sentences always require interpretation. These non-tautological sentences are the commitment that a theory makes, and the risk that it takes, that no interpretation can be found to satisfy the theory. Truth only exists in the context of commitment, associated risk, and interpretation.

I offered my views to ChatGpt, here's ChatGpt refined response;

Your counterargument seems to misapply the concept of tautology to the Quran’s claim of being “fully detailed” and “self-explanatory.” The argument for Quran-alone is not that the Quran consists of tautological statements, but that it is sufficiently clear, complete, and self-explanatory as a source of guidance, requiring no external religious texts for explanation or supplementation (6:114, 12:111, 5:3).

Addressing the Tautology Misinterpretation
In logic, a tautology is a statement that is true by its logical structure alone, independent of interpretation (e.g., "Either it will rain or it will not rain.”). However, this is irrelevant to the discussion. The Quran is not being claimed as a set of tautological statements but as a fully detailed and self-sufficient scripture for guidance. This means:

It provides all necessary religious rulings and explanations without the need for external texts like Hadith.

While interpretation (ijtihad) is natural, no secondary source is necessary to authorize religious law.

Different people may understand it to different degrees, but Allah does not require an official Hadith collection as a prerequisite for correct understanding (as seen in 54:17: "And We have certainly made the Quran easy for remembrance, so is there any who will remember?").

Addressing the Necessity of Interpretation
Your argument that different Muslims may have different understandings based on their capacity (Al-Baabi) is correct but does not contradict Quran-alone. Any linguistic text requires comprehension, but this does not mean it needs an [officially authoritative] external, separate book for interpretation. The Quran itself says:

"A Book whose verses are explained in detail, a Quran in Arabic for people who understand" (41:3).

"We have not neglected anything in the Book" (6:38).

Thus, while personal effort is needed to grasp meanings, the Quran does not require Hadith as a secondary authoritative source.

The Core Issue: Supplementation vs. Comprehension
The difference between interpretation and authoritative supplementation is key. Even if understanding varies:

The Quran-alone stance is that only the Quran holds religious authority—not that everyone will understand it identically.

Hadiths, on the other hand, claim to provide authoritative rulings that supplement the Quran, which contradicts its assertion of being fully detailed and sufficient.

Conclusion
Your interlocutor’s point about tautology is a red herring—it distracts from the real issue. The Quran-alone position does not argue that the Quran must be tautological but that it is sufficient in itself. The need for interpretation does not justify elevating Hadith to the level of religious authority, and the Quran explicitly states that it is complete without external sources.

Note, there is not one occasion where your points remained uncounted.

They Lied To You About OBEYING GOD And OBEYING The Messenger !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb7AItX8Qcc
This video accused Sunnism as Mushrik because it rely on something else besides Allah's Quran and idolize a person besides Allah.

[godelian]

While interpretation (ijtihad) is natural

I have pointed out that in the context of non-tautologies interpretation is inevitable.

[Veritas Aequitas]

While interpretation (ijtihad) is natural

I have pointed out that in the context of non-tautologies interpretation is inevitable.

Not sure how your point is related to
Hadiths are not Valid for Islam-proper.

[godelian]

While interpretation (ijtihad) is natural

I have pointed out that in the context of non-tautologies interpretation is inevitable.

Not sure how your point is related to
Hadiths are not Valid for Islam-proper.

The prophetic Sunnah is considered interpretation. So, I don't see what point you are trying to make about its status.

[godelian]

Hadiths are not Valid for Islam-proper.

Islam is a theory. Its axiomatization is the Quran. A theory automatically generates lots of interpretation which become part of the theory.

The prophetic Sunnah is interpretation by the prophet himself.

The salafi epistemic directive concerning the quotation of existing interpretation in the context of a new ruling, which obviously creates new a interpretation, is that existing interpretation within the first three generations, including prophetic interpretation, can simply be referenced, while later interpretation must be inlined.

Interpretation is an integral part of a theory:

ChatGPT: What is a theory in logic?

In logic, a theory is a set of statements (called axioms or premises) that are closed under logical consequence. This means that if a statement logically follows from the axioms of the theory, then it is also considered part of the theory.

Formally, if T is a theory and φ is a statement such that (i.e., φ can be derived from T using logical rules), then φ is in T.

A theory can be:

Axiomatic: Explicitly defined by a set of axioms (e.g., Peano Arithmetic, Zermelo-Fraenkel Set Theory).

Semantic: Defined as the set of all statements that hold in a particular model (e.g., the theory of the real numbers under standard arithmetic).

Theories can be consistent (if they do not contain contradictions), complete (if they determine the truth or falsehood of every statement in their language), or decidable (if there is an algorithm to determine whether any given statement belongs to the theory).

Islam is a theory and the Quran are its axioms.

Interpretation is a statement that logically follows from the axioms of the theory and is also considered part of the theory.

Therefore, all interpretation of the Quran is part of Islam, as long as it necessarily follows from the Quran.

The prophetic Sunnah, which is interpretation, is part of Islam. According to the Salafi quotation rules, it can be referenced without explicit inlining, i.e. without reinterpretation or renewed verification.

Later interpretation, however, must, according to the three-generations principle, be entirely inlined and possibly rescrutinized.

[Veritas Aequitas]

I have pointed out that in the context of non-tautologies interpretation is inevitable.

Not sure how your point is related to
Hadiths are not Valid for Islam-proper.

The prophetic Sunnah is considered interpretation. So, I don't see what point you are trying to make about its status.

That sectarian Sunnism relies on outside sources besides Allah's Sunnah make it mushrik.

The genuine Muslims are those who rely on the Quran alone as source of authority for Islam.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Hadiths are not Valid for Islam-proper.

Islam is a theory. Its axiomatization is the Quran. A theory automatically generates lots of interpretation which become part of the theory.

The prophetic Sunnah is interpretation by the prophet himself.

The salafi epistemic directive concerning the quotation of existing interpretation in the context of a new ruling, which obviously creates new a interpretation, is that existing interpretation within the first three generations, including prophetic interpretation, can simply be referenced, while later interpretation must be inlined.

Interpretation is an integral part of a theory:
....

Islam is a theory and the Quran are its axioms.

Interpretation is a statement that logically follows from the axioms of the theory and is also considered part of the theory.

Therefore, all interpretation of the Quran is part of Islam, as long as it necessarily follows from the Quran.

The prophetic Sunnah, which is interpretation, is part of Islam. According to the Salafi quotation rules, it can be referenced without explicit inlining, i.e. without reinterpretation or renewed verification.

Later interpretation, however, must, according to the three-generations principle, be entirely inlined and possibly rescrutinized.

I mentioned the essential of the Mithaq in Islam. I have mentioned this many times, but you're blind to it.

Here's ChatGpt's view:

That's a powerful and principled stance—one rooted in the idea of covenantal fidelity. Since the covenant between the believer and God is defined solely by the Quran—the direct speech of Allah— no post-revelatory, human-authored texts (Hadiths) can qualify as binding components of that covenant.

Here’s a version of the counter-argument that aligns with your view:

Counter-Argument: Quran-Alone and the Covenantal Basis of Islam

1. Islam is not merely a theory—it is a divine covenant (mithāq)
“Islam is not a man-made theoretical framework subject to interpretive layering. It is a divine covenant between Allah and the believer. This covenant is established and defined exclusively by the words of Allah in the Quran.”

To be a Muslim, one enters into a contract—a sacred oath—with God. The terms of this contract must be known, unambiguous, and divinely issued. The Quran is the only source that satisfies these conditions.

2. The Quran is the exclusive text of the covenant
“The Quran claims to be fully detailed (6:114–115), explained in various ways (17:41), and the only source to be followed (45:6).”

It states:

6:115 – “The word of your Lord has been perfected in truth and justice. None can change His words.”

16:89 – “...And We have sent down to you the Book as clarification for all things, and as guidance and mercy...”

If the Quran is the Book of the Covenant, then any other text—including Hadiths—by definition falls outside the binding terms of Islam.

3. Hadiths are not interpretations within the covenant—they are post-covenantal claims
“Hadiths did not emerge alongside the Quran. They appeared 150–250 years later, compiled by fallible humans, and cannot be verified through divine means.”

Even if some Hadiths claim to interpret the Quran, they are:

not contemporaneous with the Quranic revelation

not part of the divine speech

not agreed upon by the global ummah during the Prophet’s life

Thus, they have no standing as covenantal texts.

4. Analogy from legal contracts:
“In law, only the contract signed by both parties is binding. Later commentaries, third-party reports, or recollections are not enforceable—no matter how well-intentioned.”

Likewise, Islamic authority comes only from the Quran, which the believer accepts as divine law. Hadiths are like external annotations—not part of the signed agreement.

5. Covenantal Islam traces back to Adam—not to post-Quranic literature
“The Quran affirms that the same deen (way of life) was revealed to all prophets from Adam to Muhammad (42:13). This unbroken line of covenantal submission is always based on God's direct guidance—not human additions centuries later.”

So, Islam isn’t something that evolves through interpretive layering; it is something restored by each messenger through direct revelation.

Closing Statement
“To be a Muslim is to consciously enter a covenant (mithāq) with Allah based on His direct words. That covenant is confined to the Quran—God’s speech to humanity—not to historical claims or attributions compiled generations after the Prophet’s death. Therefore, Hadiths—however respected—cannot be part of Islam's foundational structure, let alone authoritative in defining its obligations.”

You are always a few step behind, there is no way you can have a one-up-knowledge re Islam on me.

[godelian]

That sectarian Sunnism relies on outside sources besides Allah's Sunnah make it mushrik.

Your views are nonsensical.