DARK GOTHIC MAGA: How Tech Billionaires Plan to Destroy America

[Atla]

Trump is an autocrat, they are thankful to him that he's doing away with all this democracy nonsense where you are expected to think for yourself, and be responsible for your choices. Similar trends are happening in a few other countries, this phenomenon isn't exclusive to the US at all.

Trump is, beyond all doubting, a strange, unruly, complex, and perhaps on could also say “twisted up” figure. Simply put he is strange. And a strange appearance on the US and on the world stage. And he certainly has autocratic tendencies.

But your analysis of him is insufficient and, it is rather obvious, your vision is contaminated to the degree your “blood boils” when your contempt gets the better of you, and therefore your “lens” through which you see projects distortions that arise in your own soul.

You fail to grasp adequately that the “democracy” you refer to as if it is an intact monolith has had an afflicted existence in the US for a long time. In fact I do not think the term is a useful one any longer. It depends on what your sources are, of course, but you could say that the US is run by a giant Public Relations machine. Democratic decision, in that context, becomes oddly stripped of meaning.

I doubt that you have much grasp at all why there is such a large faction of the population of the US who come under the sway of Trump’s populism. They are in a sense “placing a bet” that the very system they are a part of will turn around and serve them again, as it once did. Such political bets are always a risky gamble as all sober men should have realized by now.

Unfortunately — very unfortunately from my point of view — Trump is showing the extreme degree to which he is, in those important areas, serving not US interests but that of the US’s Middle East partner. It seems to that this becomes — daily — more evident. It contaminates many other categories of what his populism-oriented base hoped to have gotten from his administration.

While I definitely agree with you that many people do not know how to think for themselves, and also that people will tend to gravitate to charismatic and demagogic leaders in such times as these, I also think that many more people are being introduced to ideas (views about how the US system functions i.e. not in the interests of the average man) which are really quite radical when compared to “the standard views”.

Times of radical upset, combined with radical technological changes, and in a time where the individual himself has lost ground within his own being (metaphysically adrift), are the times that are upon us. The pressure builds.

I would also focus less on Trump and consider the people that will be assembled around him and then also the Movement known as MAGA; what it is, where it will go.

You seriously fail to read me as usual, and keep missing the point I'm making. You are quite bad at understanding people.

We all understand here that a large faction of the population of the US has come under the sway of Trump’s populism because most people want change, and so many of them are "placing a bet".

My point is that YES MOST PEOPLE WANT CHANGE, but only idiots would bet on Trump, since anyone with half a brain knows that Trump will almost certainly only make things worse. And now those are idiots are united and strong like never before thanks to social media.

[FlashDangerpants]

Go back further and it's: stealing land from the Indians and killing some, gaining access to a huge land with plentiful resources without "deserving" it, slavery.

I reject this picture myself. It was inevitable that a stone age people, when an advanced people encountered them, would be displaced — decimated.

The “stealing land” image places it in an imagined realm of a trial where adjudication is needed.

In fact “decimation” describes what happened. One people displaced and replaced another.

Who “deserves” anything? What a nutty notion.

Such Social Darwinism.

[phyllo]

Go back further and it's: stealing land from the Indians and killing some, gaining access to a huge land with plentiful resources without "deserving" it, slavery.

I reject this picture myself. It was inevitable that a stone age people, when an advanced people encountered them, would be displaced — decimated.

The “stealing land” image places it in an imagined realm of a trial where adjudication is needed.

In fact “decimation” describes what happened. One people displaced and replaced another.

Who “deserves” anything? What a nutty notion.

Such Social Darwinism.

It's "inevitable" that white Christians will be replaced by brown, black and yellow Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists.

[Atla]

Unfortunately — very unfortunately from my point of view — Trump is showing the extreme degree to which he is, in those important areas, serving not US interests but that of the US’s Middle East partner. It seems to that this becomes — daily — more evident.

Can you explain why this surprises you? Such things about Trump were evident to us (nearly) a decade ago. Netanyahu was jumping up and down of joy in late 2016 / early 2017 that he'll get to work with Trump.

[Alexis Jacobi]

My point is that YES MOST PEOPLE WANT CHANGE, but only idiots would bet on Trump, since anyone with half a brain knows that Trump will almost certainly only make things worse. And now those are idiots are united and strong like never before thanks to social media.

And here, while I will admit that any bet, on nearly any political figure, and especially in the US political situation now, will likely not return on the investment, I have more faith than you and others seem to in a general movement that is developing.

However, I have a realistic pessimism that things, certainly in the short run, will develop positively. The Culture Wars are evolving into more open civil conflicts.

To the degree that you refer to people who did and do see Trump as, say, necessary, and the degree to which you reduce them to mere “idiots”, is the degree that you demonstrate your own idiocy, Atla.

I have tolerance, Atla, and I am marvelously patient, but this makes me very angry .

Heed the whip!

(However, in my personal case, there are a range of things Trump & Co. are doing that I do not support. But that is always the case in any presidency.)

[Alexis Jacobi]

Unfortunately — very unfortunately from my point of view — Trump is showing the extreme degree to which he is, in those important areas, serving not US interests but that of the US’s Middle East partner. It seems to that this becomes — daily — more evident.

Can you explain why this surprises you? Such things about Trump were evident to us (nearly) a decade ago. Netanyahu was jumping up and down of joy in late 2016 / early 2017 that he'll get to work with Trump.

I do not believe that I said it “surprises” me. Trump is an ultra-Zionist as everyone knows.

My view is that the Israel situation will have to continue evolving along the present terrible lines, likely producing a genuine catastrophe (though I hope not). (The Gaza destruction is catastrophic enough, but limited).

The State of Israel, according to my Israeli sources (and others outside) is in really serious trouble.

American populism is separate. And I hope it continues to develop along its own lines. Part of that is realizing how really bad is Israel’s influence on American well-being.

[Atla]

My point is that YES MOST PEOPLE WANT CHANGE, but only idiots would bet on Trump, since anyone with half a brain knows that Trump will almost certainly only make things worse. And now those are idiots are united and strong like never before thanks to social media.

And here, while I will admit that any bet, on nearly any political figure, and especially in the US political situation now, will likely not return on the investment, I have more faith than you and others seem to in a general movement that is developing.

However, I have a realistic pessimism that things, certainly in the short run, will develop positively. The Culture Wars are evolving into more open civil conflicts.

To the degree that you refer to people who did and do see Trump as, say, necessary, and the degree to which you reduce them to mere “idiots”, is the degree that you demonstrate your own idiocy, Atla.

I have tolerance, Atla, and I am marvelously patient, but this makes me very angry .

Heed the whip!

(However, in my personal case, there are a range of things Trump & Co. are doing that I do not support. But that is always the case in any presidency.)

There are no "culture wars". There are external manipulations that the US needs to get rid of. Trumpists are fighting the wrong opponent. W/e, have faith in it.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Atla, there very certainly are “Culture Wars” and understanding what these are about is an important component of the process of interpretation of social, cultural and political events.

Here is a definition:

Culture war is the cultural conflict between social groups and the struggle for dominance of their values, beliefs, and practices. It commonly refers to the hot button topics on which there is general societal disagreement and polarization in societal values is seen. The term is commonly used to describe contemporary politics in the US, with issues such as abortion, homosexuality, pornography, multiculturalism, and other cultural conflicts based on values, morality, and lifestyle being described as the major political cleavage.

According to a book by Irene Taviss Thomson, the term represents a loan translation from the German kulturkampf which refers to the clash between cultural and religious groups in the campaign from 1871 to 1878 under Chancellor Otto von Bismarck of the German Empire against the influence of the Roman Catholic Church. In one of the earliest and best-known portraits of the culture wars, James Davison Hunter (1991) described a fundamental split between orthodox and progressive views of morality and suggested that this divide cuts across class, religious, racial, ethnic, political, and sexual lines. In the eyes of one partisan, the culture war is apparent in the simultaneous emergence of ‘moral disarray’ and ‘moral revival’ symbolized by the success of both gangsta rap and gospel rock.

[etc.]

[Alexis Jacobi]

It's "inevitable" that white Christians will be replaced by brown, black and yellow Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists.

First, the indigenous tribes, stone-age men essentially, were “inevitably” superseded by a technologically superior and “civilized” culture. Perhaps one could say that an entire way of being necessarily came to an end. The two “worlds” could not exist side-by-side.

It might be unavoidable if, for example, a relatively homogeneous European country, relatively stable, self-affirming, proud and self-identifying, cannot resist a migration “invasion”; or that its leaders engineer this fate against the will and desire of the people; but it is not inevitable in a comparative sense.

The United States is in a strange and unique position because it had been transformed into a multicultural nation in some ways against the will of or counter the interests of its indigenous population (its principal demographic up till the 1960s).

One aspect of the national problem is that it became, in a sense against its will, another sort of nation than what it had been. This is not a small issue. It is a significant part of its present on-going identity crisis.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Interesting comments by Thomas Sowell on the collapse of American education.

[Atla]

The term is commonly used to describe contemporary politics in the US, with issues such as abortion, homosexuality, pornography, multiculturalism, and other cultural conflicts based on values, morality, and lifestyle being described as the major political cleavage.

The US is self-important enough to deem these important but more surface level issues "culture wars". It shows that as a young country founded by colonists and then becoming the land of opportunity, the US never really had a (deeper) national identity.

Banning abortion in many states was surprisingly barbaric though. I'm not sure if such straight religious nuttery should be called a cultural thing on any level.

[Age]

It's "inevitable" that white Christians will be replaced by brown, black and yellow Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists.

First, the indigenous tribes, stone-age men essentially, were “inevitably” superseded by a technologically superior and “civilized” culture. Perhaps one could say that an entire way of being necessarily came to an end. The two “worlds” could not exist side-by-side.

1. One could say that 'an entire way of being' NECESSARILY came to an end, but, if one ever did say 'that', then they would be COMPLETELY and UTTERLY Wrong.

2. The two 'worlds' CAN EXIST 'side-by-side', and even in the day that this is being written the 'two worlds' ARE co-existing 'side-by-side'. But, 'this way of co-existing side-by-side' will ONLY KEEP existing if 'one world' does NOT encroach ANY further on the 'other world'.

It might be unavoidable if, for example, a relatively homogeneous European country, relatively stable, self-affirming, proud and self-identifying, cannot resist a migration “invasion”; or that its leaders engineer this fate against the will and desire of the people; but it is not inevitable in a comparative sense.

The United States is in a strange and unique position because it had been transformed into a multicultural nation in some ways against the will of or counter the interests of its indigenous population (its principal demographic up till the 1960s).

One aspect of the national problem is that it became, in a sense against its will, another sort of nation than what it had been. This is not a small issue. It is a significant part of its present on-going identity crisis.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Banning abortion in many states was surprisingly barbaric though. I'm not sure if such straight religious nuttery should be called a cultural thing on any level.

Atla, pitiable one! What you think, or don’t think, about abortion (on anything else) is irrelevant to the cultural, moral and philosophical issue. Why bring the issue down into the realm of silly bickering?

The mores and rules a society establishes in respect to the lives gestating in its women is definitely a “cultural” question and problem.

This is such routine, basic stuff!

[phyllo]

Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 23, 2025 5:10 pm

phyllo wrote: ↑Sun Mar 23, 2025 10:36 am
It's "inevitable" that white Christians will be replaced by brown, black and yellow Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists.

First, the indigenous tribes, stone-age men essentially, were “inevitably” superseded by a technologically superior and “civilized” culture. Perhaps one could say that an entire way of being necessarily came to an end. The two “worlds” could not exist side-by-side.

1. One could say that 'an entire way of being' NECESSARILY came to an end, but, if one ever did say 'that', then they would be COMPLETELY and UTTERLY Wrong.

2. The two 'worlds' CAN EXIST 'side-by-side', and even in the day that this is being written the 'two worlds' ARE co-existing 'side-by-side'. But, 'this way of co-existing side-by-side' will ONLY KEEP existing if 'one world' does NOT encroach ANY further on the 'other world'.

When a society meets a technologically superior, arrogant and morally questionable society, the results should not be surprising.

[Atla]

Banning abortion in many states was surprisingly barbaric though. I'm not sure if such straight religious nuttery should be called a cultural thing on any level.

Atla, pitiable one! What you think, or don’t think, about abortion (on anything else) is irrelevant to the cultural, moral and philosophical issue. Why bring the issue down into the realm of silly bickering?

The mores and rules a society establishes in respect to the lives gestating in its women is definitely a “cultural” question and problem.

This is such routine, basic stuff!

I disagree, in the 21st century I don't view a ban of abortion a cultural issue anymore, but simple barbarism.