The Law of Identity is Refuted by Time/Change

[Skepdick]

So when I'm ignoring Uranus and Neptune, I am making them identical?

That is to say, I am perceiving them as identical?

Well, aren't you? If you assert A and B are "exactly the same" (which is how you use the term "identical") you must have ignored anything that differentiates them.

Is the set {1,2} "exactly the same" as the set {2,1}?

Yes - if you ignore the ordering. They have the same contents.
No - if you don't ignore the ordering. They have the same contents, but not the same ordering.

[Magnus Anderson]

If you assert A and B are "exactly the same" (which is how you use the term "identical") you must have ignored anything that differentiates them.

Again, before you can assert that A and B are exactly the same, or that they are different, you have to CHOOSE what A and B represent.

You can't skip this step.

If A and B are apples WITHOUT their locations in space and time, and if they have exactly the same physical constitution, then I have ignored absolutely nothing that differentiates them, because there is nothing that differentiates them. I have merely ignored what does not constitute them, e.g. humans, animals, mountains, rivers, cities, locations in space, locations in time, etc.

Their locations in space and time, even though different, do not make A and B different because they do no belong to A and B, in the same exact way that Trump and Putin, although different, do not make A and B different because they do not belong to A and B.

Why did you choose to separate Trump from A and Putin from B?

Is the set {1,2} "exactly the same" as the set {2,1}?

Yes - if you ignore the ordering. They have the same contents.
No - if you don't ignore the ordering. They have the same contents, but not the same ordering.

{ 1, 2 } and { 2, 1 } are two identical states that are described in a different way.

Sets have no order.

Sequences do.

( 1, 2 ) and ( 2, 1 ), being sequences, are not identical.

But { 1, 2 } and { 2, 1 }, being sets, are identical.

[Skepdick]

{ 1, 2 } and { 2, 1 } are two identical states that are described in a different way.

Sets have no order.

Sequences do.

( 1, 2 ) and ( 2, 1 ), being sequences, are not identical.

But { 1, 2 } and { 2, 1 }, being sets, are identical.

Magnus, you are as dumb as the dumbest cunt on Earth. Because you are the dumbest cunt on Earth.

The ordering of {1,2} and {2,1} is fucking obvious in the notation!

It's precisely the arbitrary choice to discard it; or keep it is what determines whether it's a set or a sequence.

[Skepdick]

Again, before you can assert that A and B are exactly the same, or that they are different, you have to CHOOSE what A and B represent.

You can't skip this step.

If A and B are apples WITHOUT their locations in space and time, and if they have exactly the same physical constitution, then I have ignored absolutely nothing that differentiates them, because there is nothing that differentiates them.

Magnus you are the dumbest motherfucker on Earth.

Here you have two distinct (and therefore unique) letters "A": A, A.
The left "A" is NOT identical to the right "A", however they are identical to themselves.
Do NOT forget this information at any cost! It is absolutely critical for your next task that you preserve and remember those unique identities!
I am so, so, so, so serious!
Got it? Good!

What is the cardinality of the set {A,A} ?

[Magnus Anderson]

Magnus, you are as dumb as the dumbest **** on Earth. Because you are the dumbest **** on Earth.

Talking to the mirror again, I see.

The ordering of {1,2} and {2,1} is fucking obvious in the notation!

Yes, in the notation. The sets themselves have no order and shouldn't be confused with the sequences of characters we use to represent them.

[Magnus Anderson]

Magnus you are the dumbest motherfucker on Earth.

Seems like you forgot your name.

Yours is Skepdick. Mine is Magnus.

Here you have two distinct (and therefore unique) letters "A": A, A.
The left "A" is NOT identical to the right "A", however they are identical to themselves.

Again, it depends on what you're comparing.

Are you comparing A's with or without their locations on the screen?

If the former, they are not identical.

If the latter, they are identical.

And the results are different thanks to the fact that A's with their locations are not the same things as A's without their locations.

You're just repeating yourself. Over and over again. Like a broken record. You have no clue what to say anymore. But you just have to say something. Anything.

Do NOT forget this information at any cost! It is absolutely critical for your next task that you preserve and remember those unique identities!
I am so, so, so, so serious!
Got it? Good!

Chill out. Noone is forgetting that the two A's occupy two different portions of reality.

What is the cardinality of the set {A,A} ?

A silly question.

[Skepdick]

Yes, in the notation. The sets themselves have no order and shouldn't be confused with the sequences of characters we use to represent them.

Q.E.D You had to forget about the ordering of the notation in order to equate them as "sets"

[Skepdick]

What is the cardinality of the set {A,A} ?

A silly question.

Silly or inconvenient?

We both know why you won't answer it. Now fuck off.

[Magnus Anderson]

Q.E.D You had to forget about the ordering of the notation in order to equate them as "sets"

I didn't have to forget the order. I merely had to ignore it on the ground that it does not constitute the things that I'm comparing ( in the same exact way I had to ignore everything else in the world. )

[Magnus Anderson]

Silly or inconvenient?

We both know why you won't answer it. Now fuck off.

Silly.

[Skepdick]

Silly or inconvenient?

We both know why you won't answer it. Now fuck off.

Silly.

Inconvenient then.

[Skepdick]

I didn't have to forget the order. I merely had to ignore it on the ground that it does not constitute the things that I'm comparing ( in the same exact way I had to ignore everything else in the world. )

But you are comparing {1,2} to {2,1}!

But once you choose what you're going to compare

Yes. It's chosen.

{1,2} vs {2,1}

you're not free to perform comparison in an arbitrary way.

You have to compare everything that constitutes them.
You are not free to be selective.

Then why are you ignoring the ordering?

[Magnus Anderson]

Then why are you ignoring the ordering?

Because you have to choose what you want to compare.

Without ignoring anything, you can only compare the universe to itself ( which is pointless. )

So what is it that you're comparing?

Are you comparing sets?
Or are you comparing sequences?

If you're comparing sets, then { 1, 2 } and { 2, 1 } are two identical sets.

If you're comparing sequences, then ( 1, 2 ) and ( 2, 1 ) are two non-identical sequences.

Saying that the sets { 1, 2 } and { 2, 1 } are not identical because we're ignoring the order of the elements is as idiotic as saying that they are actually one and the same thing because we're ignoring the rest of the universe.

[Skepdick]

Because you have to choose what you want to compare.

Yes. It's chosen.

{1,2} vs {2,1}

Without ignoring anything, you can only compare the universe to itself ( which is pointless. )

Comparing {1,2} vs {2,1} is "comparing the universe to itself"?

What a dumb cunt.

So what is it that you're comparing?

{1,2} vs {2,1}

Are you comparing sets?
Or are you comparing sequences?

{1,2} vs {2,1}

If you're comparing sets, then { 1, 2 } and { 2, 1 } are two identical sets.

You are comparing {1,2} vs {2,1}. What sort of entities are they?

Saying that the sets { 1, 2 } and { 2, 1 } are not identical because we're ignoring the order of the elements is as idiotic as saying that they are actually one and the same thing because we're ignoring the rest of the universe.

You think ignoring a single property is the same as ignoring the rest of the universe?!?

What a dumb cunt.

You are comparing {1,2} vs {2,1}

What about them are you comparing?
What about them aren't you comparing?

You can cast them as ordered sets or unordered sets.
You can cast them as something other than sets - multisets, tuples, strings of symbols.

What are you casting them as?

[Magnus Anderson]

You are comparing {1,2} vs {2,1}. What sort of entities are they?

You tell me. You're te one who brought them in.

Are they sets or are they sequences?

Curly braces are used to denote sets, so I'm inclined to think that they are sets.

And if they are sets, they are identical.

End of story.

You are comparing {1,2} vs {2,1}

What about them are you comparing?
What about them aren't you comparing?

You can cast them as ordered sets or unordered sets.
You can cast them as something other than sets - multisets, tuples, strings of symbols.

What are you casting them as?

You are unbeleivably out of your mind.

YOU brought those entities into the discussion.

YOU tell us what they are.