Proof of an imbecile doctrine

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godelian
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by godelian »

Age wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:33 am Now, if an 'axiom' is just a statement that is so evident or well-established, that it is accepted without controversy or question, and thus agreed upon as True
You are using an outdated 18th century layman definition for the term "axiom".

In an automated theorem prover, there are input statements that construct the problem universe and which are called "axioms". There are output statements of which you want to prove that they necessarily and logically follow from the axioms, and which are called "conjectures" or "theorems".

There is no need for agreeing on the truth of axioms.

The theorem prover does not prove their truth. It does not seek to do that. The theorem prover only proves that a theorem necessarily follow from the axioms:
https://tptp.org/UserDocs/TPTPLanguage/ ... uage.shtml

The TPTP Language

Annotated Formulae

TPTP problems and TSTP solutions are built from annotated formulae of the form language(name,role,formula,source,[useful_info]).. The languages currently supported are thf - formulae in typed higher-order form, tff - formulae in typed first-order form (including extended form), fof - formulae in first order form, and cnf - formulae in clause normal form. The name identifies the formula within the problem. The role gives the user semantics of the formula, one of axiom, hypothesis, definition, assumption, lemma, theorem, corollary, conjecture, negated_conjecture, plain, type, interpretation, logic, and unknown.

The axiom-like formulae are those with the roles axiom, hypothesis, definition, assumption, lemma, theorem, and corollary. They are accepted, without proof, as a basis for proving conjectures in THF, TFF, and FOF problems. In CNF problems the axiom-like formulae are accepted as part of the set whose satisfiability has to be established. There is no guarantee that the axiom-like formulae of a problem are consistent.
When a1, a2, a3, ..., a[k] are the axioms and c1 is the conjecture, then the theorem prover does not prove that a1, a2, a3, ..., a[k] are true. The theorem prover also does not prove that c1 is true. The theorem prover only proves the following:

a1, a2, a3, ..., a[k] ⊢ c1

The theorem prover only proves that c1 necessarily follows from a1, a2, a3, ..., a[k].

In general, mathematics never proves A. Mathematics never proves B. Mathematics only proves:

A ⊢ B

A is called a "theory". B is called a "theorem".

You can prove a "theorem" from a "theory". You can never prove the "theory" itself. You can also never prove a "theorem" without "theory".

In other words, context-free truth does not exist.

Furthermore, there is never proof for the context itself. Therefore, you do not need to agree on the context. You only need to establish that a particular truth necessarily follows from a particular context.

If you want to understand the notion of truth in mathematics, read up on Tarski's semantic theory of truth:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semanti ... y_of_truth

A semantic theory of truth is a theory of truth in the philosophy of language which holds that truth is a property of sentences.[1]

The semantic conception of truth, which is related in different ways to both the correspondence and deflationary conceptions, is due to work by Polish logician Alfred Tarski. Tarski, in "On the Concept of Truth in Formal Languages" (1935), attempted to formulate a new theory of truth in order to resolve the liar paradox. In the course of this he made several metamathematical discoveries, most notably Tarski's undefinability theorem using the same formal technique Kurt Gödel used in his incompleteness theorems. Roughly, this states that a truth-predicate satisfying Convention T for the sentences of a given language cannot be defined within that language.
The truth certainly exists but it may not be what you think it is.
Age
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by Age »

godelian wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:16 am
Age wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 4:33 am Now, if an 'axiom' is just a statement that is so evident or well-established, that it is accepted without controversy or question, and thus agreed upon as True
You are using an outdated 18th century layman definition for the term "axiom".
But, I NEVER USED it.

If you LOOK CLOSELY, I SAID, and WROTE, 'If an 'axiom' is ...'.
godelian wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:16 am In an automated theorem prover, there are input statements that construct the problem universe and which are called "axioms".
So, what is YOUR 'newly dated' definition for the 'axiom' word, here, in this moment', EXACTLY?
godelian wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:16 am There are output statements of which you want to prove that they necessarily and logically follow from the axioms, and which are called "conjectures" or "theorems".
you seem to KEEP MISSING the ACTUAL POINT, here.

If what is being CLAIMED in the so-called 'axiom' is NOT True, or just NOT ACCEPTED and AGREED UPON, BY ALL, FROM the VERY BEGINNING, then WHO CARES what ANY 'output statement' IS, or FOLLOWS?

If an 'axiom' and/or 'premise' is NOT ACTUAL True, from the outset, then 'the argument', 'conclusion', and/or 'output statement' will ALWAYS BE UNSOUND. And, therefore not even worthy of being REPEATED.
godelian wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:16 am There is no need for agreeing on the truth of axioms.
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL

Okay, if you SAY SO.

Now, I CLEARLY SEE WHERE the ISSUE IS, EXACTLY.
godelian wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:16 am
But, VALID 'conclusions', 'arguments', or 'output statements' are REALLY ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS if the 'axioms' are NOT True or UNSOUND.
godelian wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:16 am
https://tptp.org/UserDocs/TPTPLanguage/ ... uage.shtml

The TPTP Language

Annotated Formulae

TPTP problems and TSTP solutions are built from annotated formulae of the form language(name,role,formula,source,[useful_info]).. The languages currently supported are thf - formulae in typed higher-order form, tff - formulae in typed first-order form (including extended form), fof - formulae in first order form, and cnf - formulae in clause normal form. The name identifies the formula within the problem. The role gives the user semantics of the formula, one of axiom, hypothesis, definition, assumption, lemma, theorem, corollary, conjecture, negated_conjecture, plain, type, interpretation, logic, and unknown.

The axiom-like formulae are those with the roles axiom, hypothesis, definition, assumption, lemma, theorem, and corollary. They are accepted, without proof, as a basis for proving conjectures in THF, TFF, and FOF problems. In CNF problems the axiom-like formulae are accepted as part of the set whose satisfiability has to be established. There is no guarantee that the axiom-like formulae of a problem are consistent.
When a1, a2, a3, ..., a[k] are the axioms and c1 is the conjecture, then the theorem prover does not prove that a1, a2, a3, ..., a[k] are true. The theorem prover also does not prove that c1 is true. The theorem prover only proves the following:

a1, a2, a3, ..., a[k] ⊢ c1

The theorem prover only proves that c1 necessarily follows from a1, a2, a3, ..., a[k].

In general, mathematics never proves A. Mathematics never proves B. Mathematics only proves:

A ⊢ B

A is called a "theory". B is called a "theorem".

You can prove a "theorem" from a "theory". You can never prove the "theory" itself.
So, one can have a 'theory', the earth revolves around the sun, for example, BEFORE 'this' was ever known and/or proven. But, to you, 'this theory', itself, can NEVER be proved, correct?

Why do you HAVE and HOLD 'this BELIEF'
godelian wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:16 am You can also never prove a "theorem" without "theory".

In other words, context-free truth does not exist.
I thought 'this' would have been BLATANTLY OBVIOUS A LONG TIME AGO.

Which sort of EXPLAINS WHY you human beings have so much TROUBLE and ISSUE with CLAIMS like; If P1, then P2, therefore C1.
godelian wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:16 am Furthermore, there is never proof for the context itself. Therefore, you do not need to agree on the context. You only need to establish that a particular truth necessarily follows from a particular context.
And, above, you PROVED that your OWN particular so-called 'truth' 'a2' COULD NOT follow, let alone necessarily followed, from the particular context, 'a1'.
godelian wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 5:16 am If you want to understand the notion of truth in mathematics, read up on Tarski's semantic theory of truth:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semanti ... y_of_truth

A semantic theory of truth is a theory of truth in the philosophy of language which holds that truth is a property of sentences.[1]

The semantic conception of truth, which is related in different ways to both the correspondence and deflationary conceptions, is due to work by Polish logician Alfred Tarski. Tarski, in "On the Concept of Truth in Formal Languages" (1935), attempted to formulate a new theory of truth in order to resolve the liar paradox. In the course of this he made several metamathematical discoveries, most notably Tarski's undefinability theorem using the same formal technique Kurt Gödel used in his incompleteness theorems. Roughly, this states that a truth-predicate satisfying Convention T for the sentences of a given language cannot be defined within that language.
The truth certainly exists but it may not be what you think it is.
I KNOW it CERTAINLY IS NOT 'mr x is 'one thing' AND 'another thing' AT the EXACT SAME TIME.

But, you are OBVIOUSLY FREE TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE.
Last edited by Age on Wed Mar 12, 2025 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Age
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by Age »

\
godelian
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by godelian »

Age wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 7:47 am If an 'axiom' and/or 'premise' is NOT ACTUAL True, from the outset, then 'the argument', 'conclusion', and/or 'output statement' will ALWAYS BE UNSOUND. And, therefore not even worthy of being REPEATED.
You are basically arguing that particular abstract universes are not worth being constructed and therefore that it is of no use to investigate what else is true in them.

Well, the automated theorem prover does not care about that. It will investigate any mathematical universe that you throw at it.
promethean75
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by promethean75 »

Take a typical example of a Davidsonean triangulation. Two language sharers and an object are in a room. Let's say truth is 'context based' and doesn't exist independently of this triangulation. We can know this through Godelian's demonstration; theorems/theories can't be proven. All you'll ever get is two or more guys discussing some object... but more, you can't assume there is anything about this object that exists beyond the triangulation you're involved in while talking about it. This is what is driving VA insane, btw. Having to grapple with this bizarre result of logic.

Now my question is this. If there is anything about the object that remains when it is not involved in a triangulation and language is only possible if it can be built from atomic propositions (in Wittgenstein's sense), then the objective structure of the object is proven by the fact that the language must be structured or it cannot be a language... and we aren't talking about anything when we say 'context dependent'. It would be a meaningless phrase, and yet it isn't.

Through this Promowittgensteinian paradox, we may deduce that indeed there must be Truth, it must be what it is, and there is no possible context in which it would no longer be what it is. Thus, we surpass Nietzschean prespectivism and arrive again back at Kant. But then precisely because we are back at Kant, does Nietzsche's perspectivism become relevant again. What can a Truth i can't possibly know anything about (a noumenal world) have to do with me? What could i possibly know about it, or about what to do with it?

And so we come back 'round full circle to the epistemologically nightmarish reality Vintage Articokes experiences daily as Flash tries to talk 'em down from the ledge.
Age
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by Age »

godelian wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 10:13 am
Age wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 7:47 am If an 'axiom' and/or 'premise' is NOT ACTUAL True, from the outset, then 'the argument', 'conclusion', and/or 'output statement' will ALWAYS BE UNSOUND. And, therefore not even worthy of being REPEATED.
You are basically arguing that particular abstract universes are not worth being constructed and therefore that it is of no use to investigate what else is true in them.

Well, the automated theorem prover does not care about that. It will investigate any mathematical universe that you throw at it.
Obviously, you are COMPLETELY MISSING the point, AGAIN.

And, I am NOT arguing absolutely ANY thing like you imagine or BELIEVE, here. So, what you have said and claimed,here, is all MOOT.

If ANY one NEEDS some so-called 'automated theorem prover' to work out what CAN BE, or, COULD NOT BE, PROVED, then 'that one' has MISSED OUT A LOT, in Life.
godelian
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by godelian »

Age wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 11:04 am If ANY one NEEDS some so-called 'automated theorem prover' to work out what CAN BE, or, COULD NOT BE, PROVED, then 'that one' has MISSED OUT A LOT, in Life.
You only say that because you do not understand what the term "proof" means.

A proof is a program and a program is a proof:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry%E ... espondence
Curry–Howard correspondence

In programming language theory and proof theory, the Curry–Howard correspondence is the direct relationship between computer programs and mathematical proofs.
Age
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by Age »

godelian wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 12:54 pm
Age wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 11:04 am If ANY one NEEDS some so-called 'automated theorem prover' to work out what CAN BE, or, COULD NOT BE, PROVED, then 'that one' has MISSED OUT A LOT, in Life.
You only say that because you do not understand what the term "proof" means.
LOL
LOL
LOL

If 'this' is what you want to BELIEVE is true, then OKAY.
godelian wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 12:54 pm A proof is a program and a program is a proof:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry%E ... espondence
Curry–Howard correspondence

In programming language theory and proof theory, the Curry–Howard correspondence is the direct relationship between computer programs and mathematical proofs.
'This one' REALLY HAS A VERY LIMITED and CLOSED VIEW and PERSPECTIVE, here. As, ONCE AGAIN, 'this one' HAS JUST SHOWN, and PROVED, True.
godelian
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by godelian »

Age wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 1:14 pm 'This one' REALLY HAS A VERY LIMITED and CLOSED VIEW and PERSPECTIVE, here.
The Curry-Howard correspondence is provable. What you say, is not provable. What is the point in saying unprovable things about proof?
Age
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by Age »

godelian wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 2:40 am
Age wrote: Wed Mar 12, 2025 1:14 pm 'This one' REALLY HAS A VERY LIMITED and CLOSED VIEW and PERSPECTIVE, here.
The Curry-Howard correspondence is provable. What you say, is not provable.
What do you BELIEVE, ABSOLUTELY, and EXACTLY, is NOT PROVABLE IN what I SAY?
godelian wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 2:40 am What is the point in saying unprovable things about proof?
Did I SAY ANY thing ABOUT ANY thing in regards TO 'unprovable things about proof'?

Or, were you the ONLY 'one', here, who SAID ANY thing ABOUT 'this'?

If it was ONLY you, then it is UP TO you, ALONE, to ANSWER your QUESTION, here.
godelian
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by godelian »

Age wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:18 pm What do you BELIEVE, ABSOLUTELY, and EXACTLY, is NOT PROVABLE IN what I SAY?
If what you believe is provable, feel free to provide your theorem in TPTP format and the output of the automated theorem prover as proof.
promethean75
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by promethean75 »

Read the following with the thick British accent of a prude:

Age will be providing no theorems, and you know that, Godelian. The dean is allowing Age to remain here at the university with us as a favor to his father, and we'll not have you picking on him while he's here.

And remind Dr. Weltenshvitz that his paper on Non-Spacial Tranforms is being reviewed by the mathematics department right now and to look sharp for his presentation. Now off you go.
Age
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by Age »

godelian wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:27 pm
Age wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:18 pm What do you BELIEVE, ABSOLUTELY, and EXACTLY, is NOT PROVABLE IN what I SAY?
If what you believe is provable, feel free to provide your theorem in TPTP format and the output of the automated theorem prover as proof.
LOL

There is NOTHING, here, I BELIEVE.

Obviously you HAVE MISSED the Fact that I WAS JUST POINTING OUT that your CLAIM that 'a1 - mr x is 'one thing' AND 'a2 - mr x is 'another thing', is A LOGICAL and PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY, MOSTLY.

The you, STILL, have NOT YET RECOGNIZED and NOTICED THIS Fact is quite AMAZING.
Age
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by Age »

promethean75 wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:49 pm Read the following with the thick British accent of a prude:

Age will be providing no theorems, and you know that, Godelian.
LOL BECAUSE I DO NOT BELIEVE ANY thing, here, NOR DO I DISBELIEVE ANY thing, here, AS WELL.

And if you did NOT ALREADY KNOW this "promethean75", then NOW you DO.
promethean75 wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:49 pm The dean is allowing Age to remain here at the university with us as a favor to his father, and we'll not have you picking on him while he's here.
What 'we' have, here, is ANOTHER one who IS INCAPABLE OF CHALLENGING and/or QUESTIONING me, is NOT ABLE TO COUNTER nor REFUTE my CLAIMS, but yet IS ABLE TO talk ABOUT me, while TELLING ABSOLUTELY Falsehoods.
promethean75 wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:49 pm And remind Dr. Weltenshvitz that his paper on Non-Spacial Tranforms is being reviewed by the mathematics department right now and to look sharp for his presentation. Now off you go.
ONCE AGAIN, if ABSOLUTELY ANY one WANTS PROOF TO or FOR ANY thing that I have SAID and/or CLAIMED, and/or SERIOUSLY WANTS TO CHALLENGE 'me, then SAY SO, and then LET 'us' BEGIN.
Impenitent
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Re: Proof of an imbecile doctrine

Post by Impenitent »

godelian wrote: Thu Mar 13, 2025 2:40 am The Curry-Howard correspondence is provable. What you say, is not provable. What is the point in saying unprovable things about proof?
I like the Moe Howard-Curly correspondence better - nyuk nyuk nyuk

-Imp
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