King to stick his oar in

[Maia]

Well, it appears that Starmer is on his own, and no other country is willing to sacrifice its young men. Zelenskyy has caved, going cap in hand back to Trump, and so, just possibly, we won't be stumbling blindly into World War Three.

All this is a far from ideal situation, but that's the nature of compromises. The alternative is far, far worse.

[phyllo]

You seem to have accepted the Putin narrative that it's a binary choice ... either Ukraine surrenders or WW3.

[Maia]

You seem to have accepted the Putin narrative that it's a binary choice ... either Ukraine surrenders or WW3.

There's a third option, that the war drags on for years, causing death and mayhem. That doesn't seem very good, either.

Wars only end in one of two ways. People sitting around and making a compromise, or the total destruction of one side. I know which option I'd prefer, if they were the only two available. And indeed, historically, the former is far more common.

[phyllo]

Or a fourth option, the US uses it's considerable leverage to get concessions from Putin and preserves Ukraine sovereignty.

Wars almost never end in total destruction of one side.

[Maia]

Or a fourth option, the US uses it's considerable leverage to get concessions from Putin and preserves Ukraine sovereignty.

Wars almost never end in total destruction of one side.

But that's the one thing that doesn't appear to be on the table, although Trump might be playing a long game.

I certainly don't blame Americans for not wanting to get involved in endless foreign wars. I don't blame them, because I feel exactly the same.

[phyllo]

With great power comes great responsibility.

[Maia]

With great power comes great responsibility.

That's what the British felt in the 19th century, and well into the 20th. Didn't really do us much good in the long run, though. Other than the fact that the whole world speaks English, I suppose.

[promethean75]

"I know which option I'd prefer, if they were the only two available"

How dare you, Maia. How dare you allude to Zelensky surrendering without saying it. That's what you want... Zelensky to ignore his principles and hand over his country.

Well he ain't going to, and we're gonna fight those goddamn Ruskies to the last man standing.

Sadly, it seems at least one Brtitish lady must have not gotten Churchill's memo: we shall never surrendah!

[Maia]

"I know which option I'd prefer, if they were the only two available"

How dare you, Maia. How dare you allude to Zelensky surrendering without saying it. That's what you want... Zelensky to ignore his principles and hand over his country.

Well he ain't going to, and we're gonna fight those goddamn Ruskies to the last man standing.

Sadly, it seems at least one Brtitish lady must have not gotten Churchill's memo: we will never surrendah!

I don't blame Zelensky for wanting to fight on, and never surrender. But I suppose I feel like the Americans did after the outbreak of war in Europe in 1939. That is, please don't drag us into this. Instead, they just gave a load of money, equipment and food to the UK, hoping it would work. It took the Japanese to change their minds.

The UK has one major advantage over Ukraine, though. Namely, we're British... actually, I meant to say, we have a moat around us.

[phyllo]

With great power comes great responsibility.

That's what the British felt in the 19th century, and well into the 20th. Didn't really do us much good in the long run, though. Other than the fact that the whole world speaks English, I suppose.

What did you want to get out of it? Some sort of reward?

[Maia]

With great power comes great responsibility.

That's what the British felt in the 19th century, and well into the 20th. Didn't really do us much good in the long run, though. Other than the fact that the whole world speaks English, I suppose.

What did you want to get out of it? Some sort of reward?

That's not really the point. All empires eventually fall, that's one of the clearest facts of history, and if they no longer have the will to act as world police, we can bemoan that fact, if we want, but we can't change it. We can only work with what we have.

[promethean75]

"All empires eventually fall"

Maybe not, though. You have a good point about the geographic nature and location of Her Majesty's Island. If allied forces centralized the western most line at the island in the atlantic after the russian and asiatic hordes push west through Europe, England may be fortified and defended almost indefinitely... acting as the iron gate that must be passed before crossing the atlantic.

Be that this the will of God shall we hold the empire! Stock the galley and man the ships, we take the channel in the morning!

[phyllo]

That's what the British felt in the 19th century, and well into the 20th. Didn't really do us much good in the long run, though. Other than the fact that the whole world speaks English, I suppose.

What did you want to get out of it? Some sort of reward?

That's not really the point. All empires eventually fall, that's one of the clearest facts of history, and if they no longer have the will to act as world police, we can bemoan that fact, if we want, but we can't change it. We can only work with what we have.

You wrote that you don't blame Americans for not wanting to get involved in endless foreign wars.

And I replied with a quote which basically says that the Americans have a responsibility to be involved since they still have considerable power.

When empires fall, then they no longer have such responsibilities.

Perhaps you think of the UK in that way.

Personally I don't think the UK that decrepit.

[Maia]

"All empires eventually fall"

Maybe not, though. You have a good point about the geographic nature and location of Her Majesty's Island. If allied forces centralized the western most line at the island in the atlantic after the russian and asiatic hordes push west through Europe, England may be fortified and defended almost indefinitely... acting as the iron gate that must be passed before crossing the atlantic.

Be that this the will of God shall we hold the empire! Stock the galley and man the ships, we take the channel in the morning!

Airstrip One, as I believe Orwell called it.

Not having been successfully invaded since 1066, the English tend to feel quite proud of their little island fortress. As Shakespeare himself put it, quite objectively and accurately, I feel, without any hint of irony:

This royal throne of kings, this scepter’d isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England

[promethean75]

Now there's a lass who loves her country. Utter the word England, and she gives you a history lesson with a Shakespearean addendum.

I couldn't tell you the first thing about my country. All i know is there were some indians and they had a big tea party in the boston harbor.