Trump is not offering peace in Ukraine

[phyllo]

Trump is not offering peace.

Trump is offering Russia an opportunity to rebuilt it's stockpile of weapons and to attack with greater force in the future.

Without guarantees from America and the EU to come to Ukraine's aid in case of a future Russian attack, signing onto a Trump peace plan are suicide for Ukraine. Ukraine would be swallowed up slowly or quickly.

Putin is not the trustworthy good guy. Americans understand that and they care. Trump and his yes men/women apparently don't understand or don't care.

[Impenitent]

no more lend-lease for Ukraine

watch out nato...

-Imp

you see, if Americans were in Ukraine - mining minerals, administering business ect. - Putin would not attack in fear of hitting the wrong target

but Zelensky thinks it's about him

[Immanuel Can]

The big worry is that Ukraine will cease to exist. And what will finish it off is the all-or-nothing attitude of the Dems and Zelensky. It seems Zelensky thinks he has to get three things: Crimea, Donbas and revenge (he's come out saying he intends to "punish" Russia, in addition to reclaiming all of the former territory of Ukraine). The Dems say they're aiming for "regime change" in Russia. Both are telling Putin that he has only two choices: total victory or extinction. And if we know anything about Putin, which one do we really think he'll choose?

If the war's going to end, and if Ukraine is going to survive as a country, it's going to be with an imperfect solution. Probably Ukraine will lose Donbas and Crimea. But maybe that's all, if Zelensky becomes sensible; and maybe there's still a Ukraine left. So we'd better hope that somebody can work out a partial "win" for both sides, or Ukraine's real existence is seriously in doubt. In any case, it's time people stopped dying there.

People who don't like a partial solution care more about their "high moral ground" (self-appointed, of course) than they do about Ukraine or its people.

[phyllo]

It seems Zelensky thinks he has to get three things: Crimea, Donbas and revenge (he's come out saying he intends to "punish" Russia, in addition to reclaiming all of the former territory of Ukraine).

He didn't ask for that. He asked for security guarantees. He got none.

[Immanuel Can]

It seems Zelensky thinks he has to get three things: Crimea, Donbas and revenge (he's come out saying he intends to "punish" Russia, in addition to reclaiming all of the former territory of Ukraine).

He didn't ask for that. He asked for security guarantees. He got none.

He DID ask for that: not during his conversation with the US president yesterday, but all along.

"A special tribunal should be created to punish Russia for the crime of aggression against our state." -- Zelensky, speech to UN.

“We are not putting down arms. We will be defending our country, because our weapon is truth, and our truth is that this is our land, our country, our children, and we will defend all of this.” -- Zelensky, address to the Ukrainian people.

And no part of his conversation yesterday suggested he wanted less now, either.

I hope you're right...that he's more sensible. But there's no indication from his conduct yesterday that he has any sense at all.

[phyllo]

It seems Zelensky thinks he has to get three things: Crimea, Donbas and revenge (he's come out saying he intends to "punish" Russia, in addition to reclaiming all of the former territory of Ukraine).

He didn't ask for that. He asked for security guarantees. He got none.

He DID ask for that: not during his conversation with the US president yesterday, but all along. And no part of his conversation yesterday suggested he wanted less now, either.

I hope you're right...that he's more sensible. But there's no indication from his conduct yesterday that he has any sense at all.

Zelenskyy was prepared to sign the mineral deal if he got security guarantees.

Trump is not willing to guarantee anything.

That's the biggest issue.

[Immanuel Can]

He didn't ask for that. He asked for security guarantees. He got none.

He DID ask for that: not during his conversation with the US president yesterday, but all along. And no part of his conversation yesterday suggested he wanted less now, either.

I hope you're right...that he's more sensible. But there's no indication from his conduct yesterday that he has any sense at all.

Zelenskyy was prepared to sign the mineral deal if he got security guarantees.

Apparently, the "guarantees" he was expecting included total victory and revenge.

Trump is not willing to guarantee anything.

We'll never know. Zelensky did not negotiate, or even show willingness to be grateful to the US for what it had already done. He was rude and attempted to lecture. Very, very foolish behaviour. A little humility would have left him a place at the table; now he's excluded himself.

It's the people of Ukraine who will suffer for his hubris.

[henry quirk]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4bkXGLsXd84

[phyllo]

Apparently, the "guarantees" he was expecting included total victory and revenge.

No, that's an absurd distortion.

Trump is not willing to guarantee anything.

We'll never know.

Zelenskyy asked and Trump offered him no security guarantees.

[Immanuel Can]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4bkXGLsXd84

Yep, there it is: he even explicitly mentions Crimea, and he tries to argue that deals can't be made with Putin. How is that going to end the war in Ukraine? And then he's rude and contentious.

They didn't even mention his own suppression of opposition, his persecution of religion, and his cancelling of elections. And then he tries to threaten the US, as if he can dicate that Putin's going to come after them. He thinks the American press will back him, rather than their own country and president.

He's acting like a silly, silly boy.

[phyllo]

Trump has already said that Ukraine will not get back the territory it lost in Crimea and the territory it lost since 2022.

Trump has said that Ukraine will not be allowed to join NATO.

What is Ukraine being offered except the prospect of being invaded by Russia in the future?

[godelian]

Trump has already said that Ukraine will not get back the territory it lost in Crimea and the territory it lost since 2022.
Trump has said that Ukraine will not be allowed to join NATO.
What is Ukraine being offered except the prospect of being invaded by Russia in the future?

A ceasefire, which would benefit both Russia and Ukraine. The alternative is to keep shooting and killing each other without either side making any progress whatsoever.

[phyllo]

What happens after a ceasefire?

What happens long-term?

What happens if/when Russia attacks again?

[Immanuel Can]

Trump has already said that Ukraine will not get back the territory it lost in Crimea and the territory it lost since 2022.

It probably won't. And if it insists on it, then the war won't end.

Trump has said that Ukraine will not be allowed to join NATO.

After WW2, the allies promised Russia that it would not expand NATO east. Biden et al. broke that promise. That's where all the trouble began.

Meanwhile, the US essentially IS NATO. If Zelensky screws up his relations with the US, he loses NATO backing completely; so he's not looking out for Ukraine, but to keep his own position.

What is Ukraine being offered except the prospect of being invaded by Russia in the future?

Existence. The lives of its people. That's the best offer Ukraine is going to get. It's not going to be moved off the border of Russia. It's not going to get total victory, nor is it going to get anywhere with a punitive, vengeful mindset like Zelensky's.

Zelensky's demanded no ceasefire, even, as you see from the video. Why does he want his own people to keep being killed?

[Immanuel Can]

What happens after a ceasefire?

Peace talks.

What happens long-term?

Nobody ever knows the answer to that question.

What happens if/when Russia attacks again?

That will depend on Zelensky's position relative to the US...which he just screwed up.