Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

[Alexis Jacobi]

Mike, I think you deserve some respect & praise, along with criticism and opprobrium.

See, what I think is the entire issue that you frame as “scientific determinism”, and which obviously grabs all your philosophical attention and concern, opens us all to the examination of everything that lies under it, if you catch my drift.

It is “as if” (but really: it really is) the issue that lies under the surface is of vital importance to all of us. I think that is why it has such gravity. Like moths to a flame we are inevitably drawn.

You are like a Black Hole of inevitable force that draws us all to consider the implications of seeing Man as utterly determined and without genuine agency.

You say “Science does not care about your feelings!” as you attempt to to demonstrate with mathematical logic that Man cannot determine himself! Is simply a molecule caught in a determined maze! You are not without a certain rhetorical power, but then neither is the present intellectual dispensation.

But weirdly you really do assert that Man can determine himself if he realizes what, according to you, he must realize to become both true to himself and “free” in a neo-anthropological sense.

You are a phenomenon, Mike! A whirlwind! A center of gravity with the power to capture and (oddly) to devour planetary systems. There is this Titanic aspect to your presentation of yourself.

You are indeed BigMike and Good Lord you must be eight or nine feet tall! Your steps cause a quaking of the ground. Indeed all former certainties quiver before your approach.

Show some mercy!!

[seeds]

But let’s get back to the issue at hand, the one you keep sidestepping. You’ve spent an inordinate amount of time insinuating that my position on determinism serves some nefarious social or political agenda, yet when directly invited to unpack this supposed agenda, to engage in a substantive discussion about responsibility, justice, and morality under determinism, you retreat into vague complaints about my "mega-war" against free will believers.

You are obsessed, Mike. Your obsession distorts your comprehension. At this point I cannot help you to resolve this impasse.

Read what I write more thoroughly. Go back over previous posts (in the first 20 pages).

I'm afraid that not even the inspiring words of the Hyperbolic Apollyon can pierce through the hardened outer shell of a mind as closed as Bigmike's. In which case, there's only one thing left to do...

https://youtu.be/AoouOI704jI
_______

[Immanuel Can]

Do some research.

Great. Point me to the "research" that proves Determinism.

I'm not your 'mommy', do it yourself.

So...nothing, again.

Exactly what I expected.

[accelafine]

Great. Point me to the "research" that proves Determinism.

I'm not your 'mommy', do it yourself.

So...nothing, again.

Exactly what I expected.

You can't search it yourself? Not my problem. I'm not your internet.

[Immanuel Can]

I'm not your 'mommy', do it yourself.

So...nothing, again.

Exactly what I expected.

You can't search it yourself? Not my problem. I'm not your internet.

There is none. That's why you can't find it.

As always, conversation with you proves so enriching.

[accelafine]

So...nothing, again.

Exactly what I expected.

You can't search it yourself? Not my problem. I'm not your internet.

There is none. That's why you can't find it.

As always, conversation with you proves so enriching.

There's an abundance of it.

[Immanuel Can]

You can't search it yourself? Not my problem. I'm not your internet.

There is none. That's why you can't find it.

As always, conversation with you proves so enriching.

There's an abundance of it.

And yet...still nothing.

I call "hogwash" on that.

[promethean75]

^^^ https://youtu.be/AoouOI704jI

This is an extraordinary video, and I'd like to point something out. Notice how we no longer have the narrator leading us through the commercial like that? That's because the fourth wall of the simulcra was broken, and now we are the people in the commercial. Back then, new products were introduced as if they were foreign and alien things that people needed to be instructed on how to use and what to do with it. A simple sandwich was a fascinating new thing to a consumer who wasn't yet able to be a total cheesedick like people are today. Back then, nothing was corny because we were so innocent, so honest, the middle working class suburbanites that held hands and thought pure thoughts at the malt shop.

The reason why we look so fondly on that commercial and find it so stupidly adorable is because we are viscious monsters made out of decades of capitalism's over-aggressive hypercommodification of human nature. Nothing is new anymore, and we're too smart to need to learn how to operate a toaster oven. Our innocence is lost, and we have become the empty mass-produced formulaic people in the sitcoms and commercials and music videos of today.

Imagine being so pure, so honest, so human as to be able to say "gosh, Marty, this soda sure is great" and really mean it when you try your first Coca-Cola in a bottle.

Well, those days are over, and all of you are overstimulated pavlonian dogs given to short-term reward reinforcement through acquiescent consumer behavior raising threshold levels for neuropsychological states of visceral satisfaction thereby making you more prone to bouts of depression, malaise and posting at PN. Nobody was like that in Leave It To Beaver. Everybody was utterly in love with life and perfectly cut lawns. You guys are like drug addicts strung out on Amazon and faster internet speeds.

[Alexiev]

So I’ll ask you one more time, and let’s see if you can engage without disappearing into rhetorical abstraction:

1. Given determinism, what does personal moral responsibility mean?
2. What does meritocracy mean if our actions are causally determined?
3. What do salvation and damnation mean if people do not have free will?

OK. You've baited me into one more attempt at responding. I'll answer your questions inorder:

1) Exactly the same thing it means without assuming determinism.

2) Exactly the same thing as it means if they are not causally determined.

3) Precisely the same thing they mean if people do have free will.

Those are easy questions, unless, of course, you want comprehensive answers instead of a comparison between determinism and non-determinism. IN that case, the questions are extremely difficult. Determinism is irrelevant to the answers, just as it is to almost everything else.

[Dubious]

There's nothing even remotely scientific about Determinism. It's utterly unverifiable, and also utterly unfalsifiable, having no possible tests and no empirical evidence at all. Mike ridiculously imagines that the existence of scientific regularities in the physical world can somehow be inductively transferred into giving Determinism the default win, and to "proving" that nothing exists but the physical. But he's just hopelessly bad at logic.

Do some research.

Great. Point me to the "research" that proves Determinism.

It doesn't require research. Your brain is a perfect example of that which allows no contradiction to any of your beliefs no matter how stupid.

Without moving parts, determinism rules. If your brain was a car, you wouldn't even be able to put it in reverse!

[Immanuel Can]

Do some research.

Great. Point me to the "research" that proves Determinism.

It doesn't require research. Your brain is a perfect example of that which allows no contradiction to any of your beliefs no matter how stupid.

Without moving parts, determinism rules. If your brain was a car, you wouldn't even be able to put it in reverse!

So...your idea is that a brain has no mind it it, and no moving parts?

Well, it's pretty clear that the brain that came up with that idea is lacking something.

[Alexis Jacobi]

I thought this gem from Page 12 to be worthy of a revisit and reexamination:

I'm honestly at a loss for words right now. It's not just surprising—it's genuinely shocking, terrifying, and deeply concerning—to realize that every single person here seems either completely unwilling or unable to grasp even the most basic scientific principles, like the conservation laws. These aren't advanced concepts; they're the bedrock of how the universe functions. I was prepared to encounter some level of misunderstanding or denial, but every single person? It's staggering. I knew there was a fair share of ignorance in the world, but I never imagined it was this pervasive. How do we even begin to address such a profound lack of understanding?

That question, by the way, is entirely rhetorical. I don't expect an answer because, frankly, I doubt there's a single response that could adequately address the depth of the issue we're dealing with here. In fact, I don't even want an answer, because any attempt to justify or explain away this glaring lack of understanding would likely just underscore my point even further. Sometimes silence speaks louder than words, and in this case, it's probably better to let the overwhelming absence of insight stand on its own. Anything else would just be noise.

Curious what a torrent [of words] a loss for words produces!

[Dubious]

Great. Point me to the "research" that proves Determinism.

It doesn't require research. Your brain is a perfect example of that which allows no contradiction to any of your beliefs no matter how stupid.

Without moving parts, determinism rules. If your brain was a car, you wouldn't even be able to put it in reverse!

So...your idea is that a brain has no mind it it, and no moving parts?

Well, it's pretty clear that the brain that came up with that idea is lacking something.

That's what makes your brain so unique. Once encrusted with a belief or opinion, it will remain there until the day when all such blends with the void. In the meantime, your uncompromising deterministic attitude won't even notice the greater part which remains unused to the very end. Your idées fixes will prevent any collusion with the rest of you remaining, until the inevitable day, terra incognita!

[Immanuel Can]

...deterministic attitude...

Oh. So you don't even know what Determinism is, and yet you want to get your oar in the water?

Happy paddling. Nobody's interested.

[accelafine]

...deterministic attitude...

Oh. So you don't even know what Determinism is, and yet you want to get your oar in the water?

Happy paddling. Nobody's interested.

So the one who champions 'free will' claims to speak for others I find Dubious very interesting actually, unlike bores like you who only have one opinion: god did it.