Freedom (and Will?)

[Wizard22]

A Harris bomb. A single paragraph plunges all manner of dualists trying to defend freewill by positing an immaterial soul free from physical causality into a terrifying philosophical crisis. My god i never thought of that. Like how did i miss that? What do i do now? Sue for Harrisment? Feel like a fool and never post about freewill again? Just kinda start talking about other stuff like the Austrian school of economics and hope nobody remembers i used to believe in freewill?

"Even if we have souls... even if the human mind were made of this soul stuff that we didn't understand, nothing about my argument would change. The unconscious operations of a soul grant you know more freedom than the unconscious neurophysiology of your brain does."

Or how about the other way... if Free-Will is a delusion, an illusion, Choice is illusion, then how is one 'illusion' (Free Will vs Determinism) better than the other?

Are you not then 'Free', yet again, to choose your delusion??

[Wizard22]

@ 40:15, start thinking of the ooga booga boy that Maia, Wiz, Fishpie, and A. Lexus Jakobi want to rot in a british prison in solitary confinement because the stupid sonofabitch killed those childrens.

Let it run to about 45:50.

If it were up to me, I'd get Medieval on his ass. I'm not as Christian-Forgiving as you might suspect. Sometimes the Jewish, Eye for an Eye, Old Testament Fire & Brimstone works too. I don't know why you feel people would sympathize with a child mass-murderer, who stabbed a little girl 100+ times? I feel like maybe even the Big JC would cast the scumbag into the Holy Fires...

[Wizard22]

1. Absolutely EVERY one/thing/entity/event IS 'Natural'. This GOES, and STANDS, WITHOUT QUESTIONING.

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(That's what you sound like, AgeGPT)

[Age]

1. Absolutely EVERY one/thing/entity/event IS 'Natural'. This GOES, and STANDS, WITHOUT QUESTIONING.

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(That's what you sound like, AgeGPT)

I typical response from one who, CLEARLY, can NOT back up NOR support their BELIEFS and CLAIMS, AT ALL.

COMPLETELY INCAPABLE IS what you ARE BEING, here

[Age]

@ 40:15, start thinking of the ooga booga boy that Maia, Wiz, Fishpie, and A. Lexus Jakobi want to rot in a british prison in solitary confinement because the stupid sonofabitch killed those childrens.

Let it run to about 45:50.

If it were up to me, I'd get Medieval on his ass. I'm not as Christian-Forgiving as you might suspect. Sometimes the Jewish, Eye for an Eye, Old Testament Fire & Brimstone works too. I don't know why you feel people would sympathize with a child mass-murderer, who stabbed a little girl 100+ times? I feel like maybe even the Big JC would cast the scumbag into the Holy Fires...

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A TYPICAL RESPONSE FROM one who HAS NO CLUE NOR IDEA, AT ALL.

[promethean75]

"Yes, I "could have", but didn't."

Not so, my good man. It is logically possible that you could have picked Cujo because picking Cujo would have involved no contradiction; a world where there are Cujo picking Wiz's is not incoherent or inconceivable. But it was physically impossible because the antecedent conditions leading up to the pick could not have been other than they were... and therefore, Cujo was not in the cards (as Sam put it). Gangs of New York was in the cards instead.

[promethean75]

It's what happens when the cold wind of Spinoza blows through us, and we finally realize there is no free will that we can no longer understand punishment as retributive, see. Of course, you gotta keep ooga booga locked away for a long time to protect society and not let him out until he's clearly no longer what he was (let's say he's forty-five now and a Bible thumping Jesus jumping christian) or still the same asshole only so fuckin' old he can't get out of his wheelchair long enough to stab anyone. At this point, we move him into the elderly center that Maia works at so she can poison his tea and send that monster to hell. Pagans don't play around with their criminal justice. None of that liberal tolerant mamsy-pamsy crap that modern industrial societies do with their long, drawn-out judicial processes. Maia will take you right out into the middle of a field and, after a few ceremonial words, execute you with a homemade hatchet of oak, sharpened shale stone, and hemp rope.

But seriously. This guy is sixty years old and hasn't been out of the exercise box in forty years. You don't even want to let him out for a sec to see the woods or a bush or something? What if we give him day privileges to go out with a guard escort and get a pizza once a week?

[Wizard22]

"Yes, I "could have", but didn't."

Not so, my good man. It is logically possible that you could have picked Cujo because picking Cujo would have involved no contradiction; a world where there are Cujo picking Wiz's is not incoherent or inconceivable. But it was physically impossible because the antecedent conditions leading up to the pick could not have been other than they were... and therefore, Cujo was not in the cards (as Sam put it). Gangs of New York was in the cards instead.

You and Sam Harris both make the same mistake of handing Predicative Power to Free-Will, or Determinism, when it's more a matter of Neither. That isn't what makes the difference. It's Choice that makes the difference. For You to choose Cujo in the first place, sets the precedent of basis of your proof against Free-Will or for Determinism, or vice-versa. You're confirming your own Bias.

You cannot do this, as a measurement of 'Freedom'. Freedom is an un-restraint on Choice. We are, supposedly, able to Choose any damn movie we want to, forever. The past doesn't matter. The future doesn't matter. What matters, right now, is expanding choices.

It's what happens when the cold wind of Spinoza blows through us, and we finally realize there is no free will that we can no longer understand punishment as retributive, see. Of course, you gotta keep ooga booga locked away for a long time to protect society and not let him out until he's clearly no longer what he was (let's say he's forty-five now and a Bible thumping Jesus jumping christian) or still the same asshole only so fuckin' old he can't get out of his wheelchair long enough to stab anyone. At this point, we move him into the elderly center that Maia works at so she can poison his tea and send that monster to hell. Pagans don't play around with their criminal justice. None of that liberal tolerant mamsy-pamsy crap that modern industrial societies do with their long, drawn-out judicial processes. Maia will take you right out into the middle of a field and, after a few ceremonial words, execute you with a homemade hatchet of oak, sharpened shale stone, and hemp rope.

But seriously. This guy is sixty years old and hasn't been out of the exercise box in forty years. You don't even want to let him out for a sec to see the woods or a bush or something? What if we give him day privileges to go out with a guard escort and get a pizza once a week?

I don't mind handing Justice over to Maia...it's her island, anyway. Personally, I don't want to live in a society with child murderers though, and I'd roll up my sleeves and do the dirty work to make sure that doesn't happen.

Even you are very aware that there's a Code at work inside the prison, among the prisoners, as there is outside. Some lines aren't to be crossed.

[henry quirk]

Looks to me like you didn't have the freewill pick Cujo.

Libertarian free will/agent causation is not synonymous with omniscience or omnipotence so the quoted assertion, and the line of thinkin' it's drawn from, is nonsensical.

Bein' a free will means your choices aren't necessarily rooted in yesterday. Bein' a free will means you are the cause of your actions.

Bein' a free will doesn't mean you have perfect knowledge or recall, or that your choices are always wise or right, or that your actions will always be successful.

[Wizard22]

It never ceases to amaze me, the amount of Humans who do not want Free-Will, and would freely 'reject' the gift if it were ever granted to them.

Humanity has a love-affair with eternal Slavery. The worst 'illusion' of them all, is to delude oneself into a false security, comfort, and peace.

Ignorance is Bliss.

[henry quirk]

It never ceases to amaze me, the amount of Humans who do not want Free-Will, and would freely 'reject' the gift if it were ever granted to them.

If only it were so benign.

Sure, some folks are lookin' to wear the leash but many who promote philosophical determinism are bad eggs. They know man is a free will but they work damn hard to convince men they're meat machines cuz if you can hoodwink people into believin' they're just meat you can get 'em to deliver all manner of atrocity on to their fellows.

[Wizard22]

If only it were so benign.

Sure, some folks are lookin' to wear the leash but many who promote philosophical determinism are bad eggs. They know man is a free will but they work damn hard to convince men they're meat machines cuz if you can hoodwink people into believin' they're just meat you can get 'em to deliver all manner of atrocity on to their fellows.

And vice-versa too...their ideal of 'Freedom' extends only as far as their Depravity and Malice.

[Age]

"Yes, I "could have", but didn't."

Not so, my good man. It is logically possible that you could have picked Cujo because picking Cujo would have involved no contradiction; a world where there are Cujo picking Wiz's is not incoherent or inconceivable. But it was physically impossible because the antecedent conditions leading up to the pick could not have been other than they were

you WILL, REALLY, NEED TO FIND 'new words' to PICK and CHOOSE, here, that is; if you REALLY WANT your OBVIOUSLY 'current' BELIEF, here, ACCEPTED and AGREED WITH.

... and therefore, Cujo was not in the cards (as Sam put it). Gangs of New York was in the cards instead.

But, even "sam harris" ADMITTED that 'cujo' COULD HAVE BEEN CHOSEN.

And, AGAIN, if absolutely ANY one would like THE PROOF FOR 'this', then let 'us' HAVE A DISCUSSION.

[Age]

It's what happens when the cold wind of Spinoza blows through us, and we finally realize there is no free will that we can no longer understand punishment as retributive, see.

IF you EVER get AROUND TO SHOWING and REVEALING TO 'us' what you OWN PERSONAL DEFINITION of the 'free will' term MEANS, TO you, EXACTLY, then, and ONLY THEN, can 'we' SEE, FOR SURE, if your BELIEF, and CLAIM, here, is True, or NOT.

Until then 'your words', here, are literally EMPTY.

Of course, you gotta keep ooga booga locked away for a long time to protect society and not let him out until he's clearly no longer what he was (let's say he's forty-five now and a Bible thumping Jesus jumping christian) or still the same asshole only so fuckin' old he can't get out of his wheelchair long enough to stab anyone.

WILL you EXPLAIN WHY 'you' call 'that human being' 'ooga booga'?

If no, then WHY NOT?

What are you AFRAID or SCARED OF, here, EXACTLY?

At this point, we move him into the elderly center that Maia works at so she can poison his tea and send that monster to hell. Pagans don't play around with their criminal justice. None of that liberal tolerant mamsy-pamsy crap that modern industrial societies do with their long, drawn-out judicial processes. Maia will take you right out into the middle of a field and, after a few ceremonial words, execute you with a homemade hatchet of oak, sharpened shale stone, and hemp rope.

WHY do you not like it when another JUDGES others, YET you EXPRESS this DISLIKE or HATRED, WHILE you ARE JUDGING others, "yourself".

Can you, REALLY, NOT NOTICE and SEE the ABSOLUTE hypocrisy, and contradiction, here?

But seriously. This guy is sixty years old and hasn't been out of the exercise box in forty years. You don't even want to let him out for a sec to see the woods or a bush or something? What if we give him day privileges to go out with a guard escort and get a pizza once a week?

WHY are you, what some might call, 'hell bent' ON CONTRADICTING your OWN BELIEF, here, that you human beings are 'deterministic' ONLY?

[Age]

"Yes, I "could have", but didn't."

Not so, my good man. It is logically possible that you could have picked Cujo because picking Cujo would have involved no contradiction; a world where there are Cujo picking Wiz's is not incoherent or inconceivable. But it was physically impossible because the antecedent conditions leading up to the pick could not have been other than they were... and therefore, Cujo was not in the cards (as Sam put it). Gangs of New York was in the cards instead.

You and Sam Harris both make the same mistake of handing Predicative Power to Free-Will, or Determinism, when it's more a matter of Neither. That isn't what makes the difference. It's Choice that makes the difference. For You to choose Cujo in the first place, sets the precedent of basis of your proof against Free-Will or for Determinism, or vice-versa. You're confirming your own Bias.

You cannot do this, as a measurement of 'Freedom'. Freedom is an un-restraint on Choice. We are, supposedly, able to Choose any damn movie we want to, forever. The past doesn't matter. The future doesn't matter. What matters, right now, is expanding choices.

It's what happens when the cold wind of Spinoza blows through us, and we finally realize there is no free will that we can no longer understand punishment as retributive, see. Of course, you gotta keep ooga booga locked away for a long time to protect society and not let him out until he's clearly no longer what he was (let's say he's forty-five now and a Bible thumping Jesus jumping christian) or still the same asshole only so fuckin' old he can't get out of his wheelchair long enough to stab anyone. At this point, we move him into the elderly center that Maia works at so she can poison his tea and send that monster to hell. Pagans don't play around with their criminal justice. None of that liberal tolerant mamsy-pamsy crap that modern industrial societies do with their long, drawn-out judicial processes. Maia will take you right out into the middle of a field and, after a few ceremonial words, execute you with a homemade hatchet of oak, sharpened shale stone, and hemp rope.

But seriously. This guy is sixty years old and hasn't been out of the exercise box in forty years. You don't even want to let him out for a sec to see the woods or a bush or something? What if we give him day privileges to go out with a guard escort and get a pizza once a week?

I don't mind handing Justice over to Maia...it's her island, anyway. Personally, I don't want to live in a society with child murderers though, and I'd roll up my sleeves and do the dirty work to make sure that doesn't happen.

LOL It is the VERY REASON OF people like 'this one' WHY 'the world' IS SO FULL OF adults DOING Wrongs, like KILLING CHILDREN.

It is people like 'this one' WHY there exists SO MUCH Wrong, 'bad AND evil', in 'the world'.

LOL It is BECAUSE OF people just like 'this one', here known as "wizard22", WHY what it CLAIMS it 'does not want to happen', ACTUALLY HAPPENS, and CONTINUES TO HAPPEN.

And, the WORST PART, here, is 'these ones' ARE, and WERE, COMPLETELY OBLIVIOUS TO this IRREFUTABLE Fact.

Even you are very aware that there's a Code at work inside the prison, among the prisoners, as there is outside. Some lines aren't to be crossed.

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Name ONE so-called 'line', in Life, which IS NOT BEING 'crossed'.