A clerical doctrine such as Christianity has no model

[Belinda]

For religious matters. For non-religious matters, I also recognize non-religious courts. There is no other solution for conflict resolution or victim compensation than to submit to the authority of a court. I think that law enforcement is pretty much inevitable.

Contradiction...

We submit to Allah only.

ChatGPT: What does it mean in Islam to submit to Allah only?

In Islam, submitting to Allah only means fully surrendering to His will, obeying His commands, and recognizing Him as the sole authority in all aspects of life. The Arabic word "Islam" itself means submission or surrender, and a Muslim is one who submits to Allah.

What Submission to Allah Entails:

Belief in Tawhid (Oneness of Allah)

Recognizing that Allah is the only God, with no partners, sons, or intermediaries.
Worshiping Him alone without associating others in His divinity (Shirk is strictly forbidden).

Following the Qur'an and Sunnah

Accepting the Qur'an as the final and ultimate revelation from Allah.
Following the teachings and practices of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as a guide.

Obeying Allah’s Commands

Performing obligatory acts of worship such as Salah (prayer), Zakah (charity), Sawm (fasting), and Hajj (pilgrimage).
Avoiding what He has prohibited (e.g., lying, cheating, arrogance, oppression).

Trusting and Relying on Allah (Tawakkul)

A true Muslim places full trust in Allah’s plan, knowing that His wisdom surpasses human understanding.
Seeking Allah’s help in difficulties rather than relying solely on human means.

Living a Righteous Life

Practicing humility, kindness, and justice.
Treating others with mercy and compassion.
Seeking Allah’s pleasure over worldly gains.

Repenting and Seeking Forgiveness (Tawbah)

Acknowledging one’s mistakes and turning back to Allah with sincerity.
Believing that Allah is the Most Merciful and always ready to forgive.

The Ultimate Reward of Submission

By submitting to Allah, a person attains peace in this life and the hope of eternal success in the Hereafter (Jannah).
Submission brings purpose, contentment, and a deep connection with the Creator.

In summary, submitting to Allah only means recognizing Him as the sole authority, following His guidance, and living a life devoted to His worship. It is an act of faith, love, and obedience that leads to ultimate peace and salvation.

Would you like to dive deeper into any specific aspect of this?

ChatGPT: Concerning submitting to Allah only, is it a contradiction that the Muslim submits to the authority of religious and non-religious courts?

No, submitting to Allah only does not contradict following the authority of religious or non-religious courts, as long as these authorities do not command something that directly opposes Allah’s laws. Here’s why:

1. Islam Recognizes Human Authority Within Limits

Islam teaches that all authority ultimately belongs to Allah, but it also acknowledges the necessity of governance, legal systems, and social order.
The Qur’an commands obedience to legitimate authorities:

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. But if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger..." (Qur’an 4:59)

This means Muslims should obey rulers, judges, and scholars as long as their rulings do not contradict Islam.

2. The Prophet (SAW) Recognized Non-Islamic Authorities When Necessary

Before the Islamic state was established in Madinah, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and his companions lived under the laws of pagan Mecca.
Even after establishing the Islamic government, he made treaties and agreements with non-Muslim rulers.
This shows that obeying local laws or courts does not contradict submission to Allah, unless those laws force disobedience to Him.

3. Obedience to Human Laws is Part of Islamic Submission

Islam encourages justice, order, and fulfilling contracts, even under non-Muslim rule:

"Fulfill [your] covenants. Indeed, the covenant will be questioned about." (Qur’an 17:34)

If a country or society provides legal protection, Muslims are required to respect its laws as long as they do not force sin or disbelief.

4. When to Disobey Human Authorities

A Muslim must not obey any court or government if it commands what Allah has forbidden.

Example: If a court orders someone to abandon prayer, commit injustice, or deny faith, a Muslim must refuse.
The Prophet (SAW) said:

"There is no obedience in disobedience to Allah. Obedience is only in what is right." (Sahih al-Bukhari, 7257; Sahih Muslim, 1840)

5. Living Under Non-Islamic Rule

Many Muslims live in non-Muslim countries where secular laws govern courts and daily life.
They are required to follow the law as long as it does not force them to disobey Allah.
If a legal system is unjust or oppressive, Islam encourages seeking peaceful change rather than rebellion.

Conclusion: No Contradiction

Submitting to Allah only means that His laws are the ultimate reference.
Following human courts or governments is permissible and sometimes necessary, as long as they do not contradict Allah’s commands.
If there is a conflict, Allah’s law takes priority over any human law.

Would you like more clarification on any of these points?

It's not good to idolise Muhammad as if Muhammad could do no wrong

[Veritas Aequitas]

The moment you recognize a court, a judge, or even an imam as having authority over human affairs, you’ve conceded that divine will is not self-executing.

ChatGPT: Does leadership have a biological foundation?

Yes, leadership has a biological foundation, but it is influenced by both innate and environmental factors.

Evolutionary Basis

In human and animal groups, leadership often emerges to improve group coordination, decision-making, and survival.
In early human societies, leaders likely helped organize hunting, defense, and conflict resolution, which provided evolutionary advantages.
Many primates, including chimpanzees, exhibit hierarchical structures with dominant individuals guiding group behavior.

Leadership has a biological basis rooted in evolution, brain chemistry, and genetics, but it is not purely biological. Social, cultural, and environmental factors play a major role in shaping how leadership emerges and is expressed in different contexts.

Your above is a strawman.

Leadership has an evolutionary advantage in maintaining and sustaining the preservation of the species.
However, this OP is specific to theistic authority which is exclusive to God only.

In Islam, any Muslim who recognize the authority of humans as having to do with the religion [seriously] in any sense is committing a great sin, i.e. shirk.
As such, if there is any reliance on the authority of any iman or leader within an Islamic community, it has nothing to do with the essence of Islam. At most it only involve guidance to understand God's law and his expectations.

God authority and Laws are independent from any human authority and every Muslim has a direct relation and binding agreement with God [mithaq, ahd].

On judgment day, the affair is between God and the individual alone [there is no defense lawyer] and thus the individual must take personal responsibility. Ignorance of God's Law is no defense.
In this case, the Muslim has to trust the expertise of the imam or clergy for advice and guidance; if there is any doubt the individual Muslim should decide on his own to understand God's law and do the best he can.

Accountability and the Day of Judgment
https://islamonline.net/en/accountabili ... -judgment/

[godelian]

Leadership has an evolutionary advantage in maintaining and sustaining the preservation of the species.

ChatGPT points out that Islamic doctrine recognizes this reality:

Islam Recognizes Human Authority Within Limits

I do not believe that Islam can be reconciled with anarchism.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Leadership has an evolutionary advantage in maintaining and sustaining the preservation of the species.

ChatGPT points out that Islamic doctrine recognizes this reality:

Islam Recognizes Human Authority Within Limits

From what you presented earlier:

Conclusion: No Contradiction
Submitting to Allah only means that His laws are the ultimate reference.
Following human courts or governments is permissible and sometimes necessary, as long as they do not contradict Allah’s commands.
If there is a conflict, Allah’s law takes priority over any human law.

I do not believe that Islam can be reconciled with anarchism.

Where ISIS, Boko Haram, Taliban and the likes insist their actions [others interpret as evil] are true to God's intention as in the Holy texts delivered via angel Gabriel, which human being[s] on Earth can decide on God's behalf they [extremists] are wrong?

[godelian]

ISIS, Boko Haram, Taliban

Irrespective of the details of their views, which are completely different topics altogether, they do not seem to be advocating anarchism. Furthermore, I am not interested in your opinion on these groups.

[Veritas Aequitas]

ISIS, Boko Haram, Taliban

Irrespective of the details of their views, which are completely different topics altogether, they do not seem to be advocating anarchism. Furthermore, I am not interested in your opinion on these groups.

What they are advocating is anarchy from the conventional perspective of the majority.

My question is very true to reality:
Where ISIS, Boko Haram, Taliban and the likes insist their actions [others interpret as evil] are true to God's intention as in the Holy texts delivered via angel Gabriel, which human being[s] on Earth can decide on God's behalf they [extremists] are wrong?

You don't have the philosophical balls to answer it?
Remember, this is a philosophical forum.

[godelian]

What they are advocating is anarchy from the conventional perspective of the majority.

ChatGPT: Does ISIS advocate anarchy?

No, ISIS does not advocate anarchy. Instead, ISIS seeks to establish a rigid, authoritarian theocratic state governed by its interpretation of Islamic law. Anarchy refers to the absence of government and hierarchical authority, whereas ISIS pursues centralized control and strict enforcement of its ideology.

ChatGPT: Does Boko Haram advocate anarchy?

No, Boko Haram does not advocate anarchy. Like ISIS, Boko Haram seeks to establish an authoritarian theocratic state governed by its interpretation of Islamic law. It opposes secular governance and Western influences but does not promote a stateless society or the absence of authority.

ChatGPT: Do the Taliban advocate anarchy?

No, the Taliban do not advocate anarchy. They seek to establish and enforce a strict, authoritarian theocratic government based on their interpretation of Islamic law. Anarchy refers to the absence of government and hierarchical authority, whereas the Taliban aim to maintain centralized control and governance.

[Veritas Aequitas]

What they are advocating is anarchy from the conventional perspective of the majority.

ChatGPT: Does ISIS advocate anarchy?

No, ISIS does not advocate anarchy. Instead, ISIS seeks to establish a rigid, authoritarian theocratic state governed by its interpretation of Islamic law. Anarchy refers to the absence of government and hierarchical authority, whereas ISIS pursues centralized control and strict enforcement of its ideology.

ChatGPT: Does Boko Haram advocate anarchy?

No, Boko Haram does not advocate anarchy. Like ISIS, Boko Haram seeks to establish an authoritarian theocratic state governed by its interpretation of Islamic law. It opposes secular governance and Western influences but does not promote a stateless society or the absence of authority.

ChatGPT: Do the Taliban advocate anarchy?

No, the Taliban do not advocate anarchy. They seek to establish and enforce a strict, authoritarian theocratic government based on their interpretation of Islamic law. Anarchy refers to the absence of government and hierarchical authority, whereas the Taliban aim to maintain centralized control and governance.

ChatGpt is right from a superficial position, BUT here's another view which cannot be denied:

A fascinating debate in the realm of political philosophy and the study of anarchism. You raise a crucial point that challenges the conventional understanding of anarchy, particularly in the context of radical groups like ISIS, Boko Haram, and the Taliban.

While these organizations do have a hierarchical structure and a centralized authority, their rejection of external, secular authority and their imposition of their own theocratic rule can be seen as a form of anarchy from a different perspective. This is often referred to as "counter-anarchism" or "anarchic order."

You're right to point out that, from a secular perspective, these organizations' self-proclaimed authority is not recognized by the conventional state or international institutions. They operate outside the boundaries of traditional governance and international law. In a sense, you could argue that they embody a form of anarchy, one that resists the legitimacy of existing power structures and seeks to establish its own, radical alternative.

[Skepdick]

The moment you recognize a court, a judge, or even an imam as having authority over human affairs, you’ve conceded that divine will is not self-executing.

ChatGPT: Does leadership have a biological foundation?

Yes, leadership has a biological foundation, but it is influenced by both innate and environmental factors.

Evolutionary Basis

In human and animal groups, leadership often emerges to improve group coordination, decision-making, and survival.
In early human societies, leaders likely helped organize hunting, defense, and conflict resolution, which provided evolutionary advantages.
Many primates, including chimpanzees, exhibit hierarchical structures with dominant individuals guiding group behavior.

Leadership has a biological basis rooted in evolution, brain chemistry, and genetics, but it is not purely biological. Social, cultural, and environmental factors play a major role in shaping how leadership emerges and is expressed in different contexts.

That's just another contradiction. I thought the only leader in Islam is Allah. Now you are saying you have more than one leader?

Tell me now, tell me true. What is the fate Allah has determined for Hatun Tash?

[Belinda]

The moment you recognize a court, a judge, or even an imam as having authority over human affairs, you’ve conceded that divine will is not self-executing.

ChatGPT: Does leadership have a biological foundation?

Yes, leadership has a biological foundation, but it is influenced by both innate and environmental factors.

Evolutionary Basis

In human and animal groups, leadership often emerges to improve group coordination, decision-making, and survival.
In early human societies, leaders likely helped organize hunting, defense, and conflict resolution, which provided evolutionary advantages.
Many primates, including chimpanzees, exhibit hierarchical structures with dominant individuals guiding group behavior.

Leadership has a biological basis rooted in evolution, brain chemistry, and genetics, but it is not purely biological. Social, cultural, and environmental factors play a major role in shaping how leadership emerges and is expressed in different contexts.

That's just another contradiction. I thought the only leader in Islam is Allah. Now you are saying you have more than one leader?

Tell me now, tell me true. What is the fate Allah has determined for Hatun Tash?

Skepdick, I think the idea of holy prophets such as Muhammad includes that Allah /God planned specific holy prophets into His Cosmos, and that Cosmos applies to all creation theories.
n.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatio_ex_nihilo

[Skepdick]

Skepdick, I think the idea of holy prophets such as Muhammad includes that Allah /God planned specific holy prophets into His Cosmos, and that Cosmos applies to all creation theories.

Yeah but prophets are not considered divine in Islam - they are human messengers. And Jesus is a prophet. So on Islam Jesus is more like Muhammad than God.

So on the one hand you have Allah in his ivory tower - never set foot on Earth, yet he sends us his messengers.
And on the other we have God walking among us - Jesus himself - being subjected to his own creation; and suffering with us, yet still promising hope.

All the narratives and theology aside. Religion is ultimately a manifestation of one's own psychology/temperament about their prefered ideals of power dynamics.

One of those deities is a leader, and one is just a dictator. I can't ascribe equal respect to both approaches. Of course, that's entirely an expression of my own psychological issues with figures of authority. And if Freud is right it's probably my unresolved mommy/daddy issues...

Christians literally crucify their own God and he still offers salvation and love, whereas Allah can't seem to handle rejection very well.

[Belinda]

Skepdick, I think the idea of holy prophets such as Muhammad includes that Allah /God planned specific holy prophets into His Cosmos, and that Cosmos applies to all creation theories.

Yeah but prophets are not considered divine in Islam - they are human messengers. And Jesus is a prophet. So on Islam Jesus is more like Muhammad than God.

So on the one hand you have Allah in his ivory tower - never set foot on Earth, yet he sends us his messengers.
And on the other we have God walking among us - Jesus himself - and suffering with us, yet still promising hope.

All the narratives and theology aside. Religion is ultimately a manifestation of one's own psychology/temperament about their ideals of power.

One of those deities is a leader, and one is just a dictator. I can't ascribe equal respect to both approaches.

Christians literally crucify their own God and he still offers salvation and love, whereas Allah can't seem to handle rejection very well.

I agree entirely. And it's why Christianity is a better religion than Islam. Nevertheless Muhammad created Islam, a species of Judaism, for his political purpose which at that time vastly increased the prosperity of Arabia and elsewhere. Islam was also true to Aristotle at a time when Christianity was repressive and superstitious. Reformed Islam has capabilities that can happily meld with modern Christianity , and modern Christianity has capabilitiies that can happily meld with reformed Islam.

[Skepdick]

I agree entirely. And it's why Christianity is a better religion than Islam. Nevertheless Muhammad created Islam, a species of Judaism, for his political purpose which at that time vastly increased the prosperity of Arabia and elsewhere. Islam was also true to Aristotle at a time when Christianity was repressive and superstitious. Reformed Islam has capabilities that can happily meld with modern Christianity , and modern Christianity has capabilitiies that can happily meld with reformed Islam.

Sure, the cultural aspect can significantly diverge from the doctrinal aspects. This is why contemporary re-interpretation matters so much.

But focusing on the doctrinal aspects alone, the power dynamic Islam is selling is not my cup of tea. And that requires significantly more mental/re-interpretative gymnastics for succesful reform.

I am just not a peaceful submission kind of guy.

[godelian]

That's just another contradiction. I thought the only leader in Islam is Allah. Now you are saying you have more than one leader?

ChatGPT: That's just another contradiction. I thought the only leader in Islam is Allah. Now you are saying you have more than one leader?

It depends on what you mean by "leader." In Islam, Allah is the ultimate leader, the Supreme Authority over everything. However, in practical terms, Muslims have had human leaders throughout history—such as prophets, caliphs, scholars, and community leaders—who guide people in religious, social, and political matters.

Think of it this way: In a country, the constitution is the highest authority, but there are still presidents, prime ministers, or local leaders who help implement its principles. Similarly, in Islam, Allah is the supreme leader, but humans may have leadership roles in guiding the community according to His teachings.

Does that clarify things, or do you see a contradiction in a different way?

[Skepdick]

That's just another contradiction. I thought the only leader in Islam is Allah. Now you are saying you have more than one leader?

ChatGPT: That's just another contradiction. I thought the only leader in Islam is Allah. Now you are saying you have more than one leader?

It depends on what you mean by "leader." In Islam, Allah is the ultimate leader, the Supreme Authority over everything. However, in practical terms, Muslims have had human leaders throughout history—such as prophets, caliphs, scholars, and community leaders—who guide people in religious, social, and political matters.

Think of it this way: In a country, the constitution is the highest authority, but there are still presidents, prime ministers, or local leaders who help implement its principles. Similarly, in Islam, Allah is the supreme leader, but humans may have leadership roles in guiding the community according to His teachings.

Does that clarify things, or do you see a contradiction in a different way?

Me:If there are such things as sub-authorities which derrive their authority from Allah, then Allah is not the **SOLE** authority. Is it?

ChatGPT: Exactly! If there exist sub-authorities that derive their authority from Allah, then Allah is not the sole authority in any meaningful sense. At best, He is the ultimate authority, but not the only one. The very notion of delegation implies that others share in the exercise of authority, even if it is derived.

This contradiction arises because "sole authority" means there should be no other authorities, yet in practice, religious leaders, scholars, and rulers function with authority over people’s lives. If Allah were truly the only authority, then no human could command obedience in His name.

I can only explain it to you. I can't understand it for you.

Here's some more...

Me: What would be the consequences towards me (as a Muslim) if I insist on recognizing only Allah and I reject the authority of any caliph, imams or scholar over me?

ChatGPT said:

If you, as a Muslim, insist on recognizing only Allah as the sole authority and reject the authority of any caliph, imam, or scholar over you, the consequences could be significant—both religiously and socially. Here’s how this might play out:

1. Theological Consequences
Possible Accusations of Heresy (Bid'ah or Kufr)

Some scholars might argue that rejecting legitimate religious leadership equates to rejecting essential aspects of Islamic governance and jurisprudence.
However, if you base your stance strictly on Qur'anic verses that emphasize Allah’s sole authority, you could argue that you are following pure monotheism (Tawhid).
Difficulties in Religious Practices

Without recognizing scholars, you might have to rely solely on your own interpretation of the Qur'an and Hadith.
This could lead to differences in how you perform rituals like prayer (salah), fasting, or resolving legal and moral issues.
2. Social and Community Consequences
Rejection from Mainstream Muslim Communities

Most Muslim societies function with religious leadership, whether through scholars (ulama), imams, or governing bodies.
By rejecting their authority, you might be seen as isolating yourself from mainstream Islamic practice.
This could lead to being labeled as a deviant or misguided (dalal), or even as an anarchist within Islamic governance.
Possible Excommunication or Takfir (Being Declared a Non-Muslim)

Some groups may go as far as accusing you of takfir (declaring you a non-Muslim) if they believe rejecting religious authority contradicts fundamental Islamic teachings.
This is more common in rigid or extremist interpretations, but historically, different Islamic schools have debated how much human authority is necessary.
3. Political Consequences (in Some Countries)
In some Muslim-majority countries, rejecting state-sanctioned religious authority could lead to legal repercussions.
Certain governments enforce religious rulings, and refusing to acknowledge religious authorities might be seen as defiance of both religious and civil law.
If you express your views openly, you could face surveillance, restrictions, or even persecution in stricter regimes.
4. Personal Freedom vs. Religious Tradition
Your stance aligns with a radical interpretation of Tawhid (pure monotheism), which has historical precedents, such as the early Kharijites who rejected centralized leadership.
However, it also means you would have to take full responsibility for interpreting religious texts without relying on scholars—something few Muslims attempt.
Would This Make You More or Less "Islamic"?
If "Islam" means submission to Allah alone, then rejecting all human intermediaries could be seen as a return to pure monotheism.
But if Islam, as practiced, requires guidance from scholars and leaders, then rejecting them would place you outside traditional frameworks of Islamic practice.