Are undocumented immigrants the "Jews" and "Gypsies" of our time

[Gary Childress]

It's pretty clear that Trump gives a lot of exaggeration to problems that he claims undocumented immigrants pose. "They don't work. They're all criminals. They do nothing positive for the country." seem to be the perception. How closely does that parallel the early rhetoric regarding Jews and other groups that Germany scapegoated in the 1930s?

[Impenitent]

it doesn't parallel at all... are you saying that law breakers aren't criminals?

it will be party time for sanctuary cities very soon

-Imp

[Gary Childress]

it doesn't parallel at all... are you saying that law breakers aren't criminals?

it will be party time for sanctuary cities very soon

-Imp

It depends upon what law they've broken. If they're murderers then they certainly qualify as "criminals". If it's just a speeding ticket, then probably half of all Americans would qualify as "criminals". If it's entering the country illegally, then maybe. It might depend on circumstances. If they were fleeing their country due to a life-threatening situation then it's difficult call someone a "criminal" for fleeing to save their life if they've done no other harm.

[Alexis Jacobi]

It might depend on circumstances. If they were fleeing their country due to a life-threatening situation then it's difficult call someone a "criminal" for fleeing to save their life if they've done no other harm.

Since millions flew to Mexico, went to the border, and crossed illegally, they were out of danger when they landed in Mexico.

So your argument falls apart there.

Of the millions who crossed after getting to Mexico, only an extremely small percentage were genuinely escaping extreme oppression and death-threats.

I have friend here who have friends who, realizing the border was open, sold their belongings, put money together, flew to Mexico, and crossed over.

The risk was worth it. Economic stagnation here in Colombia was their motivation. You can survive here (the minimum wage here is $315.00 or so per month) but it is hard to get ahead when money is so hard to come by.

[Gary Childress]

It might depend on circumstances. If they were fleeing their country due to a life-threatening situation then it's difficult call someone a "criminal" for fleeing to save their life if they've done no other harm.

Since millions flew to Mexico, went to the border, and crossed illegally, they were out of danger when they landed in Mexico.

So your argument falls apart there.

Of the millions who crossed after getting to Mexico, only an extremely small percentage were genuinely escaping extreme oppression and death-threats.

I have friend here who have friends who, realizing the border was open, sold their belongings, put money together, flew to Mexico, and crossed over.

The risk was worth it. Economic stagnation here in Colombia was their motivation. You can survive here (the minimum wage here is $315.00 or so per month) but it is hard to get ahead when money is so hard to come by.

I didn't say all undocumented immigrants face life threatening situations. I apologize if I didn't make that clear.

Many come here to work in the agriculture industry since maybe as much as 40% of workers in the industry working the fields are undocumented. I mean, I also wouldn't call a person a "criminal" for coming here to work at a lesser wage to make food more affordable for others in the US to eat. I would think there are a lot of immigrants coming to the US that have maybe committed no greater crime than crossing the border illegally. I'm not sure how serious a crime that is. I mean, we are a country mostly descended from immigrants and our ancestors didn't exactly ask the natives if it was OK to come in. Are we supposed to call other uninvited immigrants "criminals" with a straight face or is it some kind of inside joke?

If you live in Columbia, what do you care anyway? What is your proverbial dog in the race? Are you on the internet just to stir up resentment in the US toward illegals and reassure us all what great people Neo-Nazis can be?

[Alexis Jacobi]

I have connection to the US, Old Bean, not the least being economic.

It is, or was, the Wall Street Journal class of businessmen who love open borders and cheap labor. So the problem of illegal immigration is really a Republican issue.

A few years back the Democrats were highly opposed to excessive immigration: it hurts the working man and families.

I admire foreigners who arrive, work hard, and build something!

But you must understand that large sectors of the working class have been displaced , feel neglected, and are very angry.

FYI: Colombia not Columbia

[Gary Childress]

I admire foreigners who arrive, work hard, and build something!

As I pointed out many are out in the fields picking crops. I don't see how that hurts the economy from an economic analysis. I mean, I minored in economics for a while and it's not a zero-sum game. Wealth can be created in many ways that benefit all. Most American workers would rather not work out in the heat all day like that. And the fact that they don't make normal wages brings prices down. So I think your argument that they are hurting American families is a difficult one to pitch. If you have other reasons why you don't want them in the US, then I'll listen to what you have to say. But I'm not seeing how the "hurting American families" one is going to fly, except in the imagination.

[Alexis Jacobi]

So I think your argument that they are hurting American families is a difficult one to pitch.

I am not sure if you have done enough research on the root causes of a deep sense of betrayal and abandonment that a large class of American workers have felt because they have lived it.

I am unsure if you understand especially the feelings of working men in the post-Industrial states. It was Republican interests (the money and industry class — the “WSJ class”) that moved manufacturing to China and out of the US. Did they care what the results would be at home? Apparently not.

Anger and resentment tend to fester in people who feel they have been portrayed.

Michael Moore expresses it quite well here.

Louis Malle made an excellent documentary (1985) illustrating how Reagan policies did tangible harm to the base that felt he (and the WSJ class) was on their side.

[Gary Childress]

So I think your argument that they are hurting American families is a difficult one to pitch.

I am not sure if you have done enough research on the root causes of a deep sense of betrayal and abandonment that a large class of American workers have felt because they have lived it.

I am unsure if you understand especially the feelings of working men in the post-Industrial states. It was Republican interests (the money and industry class — the “WSJ class”) that moved manufacturing to China and out of the US. Did they care what the results would be at home? Apparently not.

Anger and resentment tend to fester in people who feel they have been portrayed.

Michael Moore expresses it quite well here.

Louis Malle made an excellent documentary (1985) illustrating how Reagan policies did tangible harm to the base that felt he (and the WSJ class) was on their side.

Sure, people can feel angry for all kinds of unjustified reasons. Thinking that illegals are their nemesis probably isn't sound thinking. Same thing with Jews for the Nazis, they were stereotyped and scapegoated as the cause of great problems in Germany. Does that mean Gobbels was correct in his propaganda against them? I mean, you're the expert on Nazism, you tell me. I'm listening.

[Alexis Jacobi]

I have zero interest in debating with you if the anger and resentment among working class Americans is justified, or justifiable to you. I am more interested in seeing it objectively and understanding the “causes” that are bringing about our present.

The root and origin of Germanic (North European) opposition to Judaism and Jewry — now that is another topic.

BTW, when was the last time you ate a bagel? Honestly?

[Gary Childress]

I have zero interest in debating with you if the anger and resentment among working class Americans is justified, or justifiable to you. I am more interested in seeing it objectively and understanding the “causes” that are bringing about our present.

The root and origin of Germanic (North European) opposition to Judaism and Jewry — now that is another topic.

BTW, when was the last time you ate a bagel? Honestly?

So you don't care if people are perhaps angry for unjustified reasons. You claim to be interested in "understanding the causes that are bringing about our present?" What does that mean? What are you hoping to accomplish in this study? Is it going to accomplish something worth accomplishing or is it vain and pointless curiosity and sophistry? If you find out that people are wrong in their beliefs, are you going to bother to tell them or are you just going to watch them go off and cause relatively innocent human beings a bunch of grief?

[godelian]

How closely does that parallel the early rhetoric regarding Jews and other groups that Germany scapegoated in the 1930s?

There is indeed the human factor to consider. That is why I am against populist anti-immigrant rhetoric. But then again, a country still needs to have credible control over its borders.

I also don't like how the banks use immigration as a tool to prop up real-estate prices. If population decline means that the banks lose money, then let them lose money. There should be no subsidies for the banks. Whatever losses they make, they should swallow them by themselves.

[Alexis Jacobi]

So you don't care if people are perhaps angry for unjustified reasons.

Usually, when you begin to pick vain fights you are on the edge of crisis.

In any case …

If you accept Moore’s perspective — it seems coherent to me — the anger of that class is justified indeed.

I accept what I understood of the practical and ethical (formerly Left-tending) stance: excess immigration, and certainly illegal immigration, harms the indigenous working class by lowering wages.

There is no correlation between Germanic judenhass and the American illegal immigration crisis.

As to the bagel:

A bagel (Yiddish: בײגל, romanized: beygl; Polish: bajgiel [ˈbajɡʲɛl]; also spelled beigel) is a bread roll originating in the Jewish communities of Poland. Bagels are traditionally made from yeasted wheat dough that is shaped by hand into a torus or ring, briefly boiled in water, and then baked. The result is a dense, chewy, doughy interior with a browned and sometimes crisp exterior.

Yum!

[Gary Childress]

If you accept Moore’s perspective — it seems coherent to me — the anger of that class is justified indeed.

I accept what I understood of the practical and ethical (formerly Left-tending) stance: excess immigration, and certainly illegal immigration, harms the indigenous working class by lowering wages.

There is no correlation between Germanic judenhass and the American illegal immigration crisis.

I'm not saying their anger isn't justified. I'm saying it's probably misdirected.

[Alexis Jacobi]

I'm not saying their anger isn't justified. I'm saying it's probably misdirected.

I can go along with that — as a possibility.