Can the Religious Be Trusted?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 3:20 am Clearin' virtual detritus as part of the year's end ritual -- out with the old, in with the new -- I happened on this essay in a little-accessed file. I have a dim recollection of posting it once, many moons back, in some now-defunct thread. Seems appropriate (in light of certain, in-thread, positions) to post it again, here, in this soon-to-be-defunct thread...
note: this is a cut & paste...I had to reconstruct the formatting...any flaws or errors belong to me, not Machan
Nice little essay. It will convince anybody with an open mind, I think.

Not Mike: he's predetermined not to have an open mind.

S.
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henry quirk
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

Post by henry quirk »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 4:48 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 3:20 am Clearin' virtual detritus as part of the year's end ritual -- out with the old, in with the new -- I happened on this essay in a little-accessed file. I have a dim recollection of posting it once, many moons back, in some now-defunct thread. Seems appropriate (in light of certain, in-thread, positions) to post it again, here, in this soon-to-be-defunct thread...
note: this is a cut & paste...I had to reconstruct the formatting...any flaws or errors belong to me, not Machan
Nice little essay. It will convince anybody with an open mind, I think.

Not Mike: he's predetermined not to have an open mind.

S.
Mike has me in his penalty box, so: he ain't readin' my posts (supposedly).

No, Machan's essay is for everyone else, open-minded or not.

I found another of his, a sister essay, on the topic. After a formatting, I'll post it tomorrow.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 5:05 am Mike has me in his penalty box, so: he ain't readin' my posts (supposedly).
Me too, probably.

But it's alright. It was physical causality that put us there, not Mike.
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iambiguous
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

Post by iambiguous »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 5:46 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 5:05 am Mike has me in his penalty box, so: he ain't readin' my posts (supposedly).
Me too, probably.

But it's alright. It was physical causality that put us there, not Mike.
Just out of curiosity IC, can we trust that unless and until henry accepts Jesus Christ as his personal savior, he will suffer the agonies of the damned for all of eternity?

Well, click, of course. 8)
BigMike
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

Post by BigMike »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2024 11:26 pm
BigMike wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2024 10:10 amYou claim to accept determinism "in the unfolding of the cosmos" and even in "man’s world if modified to conditioning," yet you continue to cling to an undefined notion of "agency" that supposedly escapes deterministic principles. Let me clarify how agency fits within my deterministic framework and why it doesn’t conflict with human experience or the broader implications of causality.

Agency is often understood as the capacity to act or intervene in the present to produce a specific effect. My view modifies this understanding in a crucial way: agency isn’t about free, independent action in the present—it’s about how learning and memory open the door to action or intervention that produces a particular effect in the future. In other words, agency isn’t negated by determinism; it is enhanced by it. The brain, shaped by experience and input, learns, adapts, and stores information through physical changes at the neural level. These changes enable future actions that are informed by past experiences.
First, the notion of determinism is, for those of us introduced to basic physics concepts, intuitively obvious. What I accept about the deterministic view is that we — living beings — have our existence in a world where everything going on there is outside of our control. Whatever we are is conditioned, determined in your sense, by the fact that anything that happens in that world is part of a world-process — and we are “chained”, bound into the conditioned processes and patterns. We are, in this sense, parts-and-parcels of a process and we are pushed along in a manner similar to a wave that is cresting.

I am not closed to your image of a water molecule swept along and literally absent agency. I think that this is what you have been trying to communicate, and I think I captured the sense of this view long ago, when I first pondered what *determinism* meant.

If I understand your view correctly, I believe that you would say that no matter what a man does, it occurs within the framework, the conditionality, of an ongoing — and determining — process. So, even if a man holds the belief that what he does — some action, any action — is done as a result of *free choice*, the fact is that he only acts from within a conditioned framework, and in order to act must employ physical energy in that choice. There is no action, on any level, that can avoid or somehow escape the *reality* of existing within that framework.

There is no man who exists outside of the framework of biological and physical life, so there is no man with access to any perspective of what it could be to operate, let’s say, supernaturally. I only mean here operating outside of nature and natural processes.

Seen in this way there would be no way to say, to declare, nor to believe, that man is *free* of determining principles. It is logically impossible given the structure, the confining structure of his *being in the world*.

So, I believe that I understood right from the start — again if I have fairly paraphrased what you do believe — how it is that you are seeing man.

Dubious has put it like this:
Everything you believe is a demonstration of determinism, not its exception. What other reality can it detour into other than the one it derives from? There are not two realities, one physical, the other metaphysical. There is only the one which hosts the complete set of everything that was made possible from the beginning which we interpret and separate into its various components epistemologically. Within determinism, subjectivity is as valid an outcome as anything objectively determined. It's just a matter of how its layers are interpreted.
Now, what I have said — what I did say right at the beginning — is that in my sense of the word *agency* I do not mean simply a choice to move from point A to point B nor do I define choice as the rebellious decision to go against the grain and go to C instead of B because one is *truly free* and I have a divine power, but rather I used the phrase *We have a cubic centimeter of a chance* to bring into our world, or if you will to *move atoms* in our world, from within our consciousness or our psyche, by access to a potency that exists outside of the confines of time & space and *material entanglement*. By material entanglement I mean many different things (it contains an allusion to disentanglement) but for the time being I’ll leave it at that.

In my view — and because we can conceive of it — we can in one degree or another access that potency that is not, like us, chained within material processes like that molecule of water.

But it must be noted that in your world, the world you define through a philosophy and also an ideology that you are constructing upon the physics principles which you declare as being inviolable (and I do not deny that these dominate), you have chosen, or perhaps you have been determined, not to be able to conceive of any potency, a potency, that exists outside of the causal domain. For this reason (I gather) you honestly define yourself as an atheist.

You have seen no evidence of anything that moves in our world in some way as outside of physical processes. Even or perhaps especially what is *epiphenomenal* is simply what is emergent from the vast possibilities of interrelationship in the neuronal complex. And I think that you would say that, mathematically, the possibilities in *combinations* could only be expressed with some giant, almost incomprehensible number.
Alexis,

Thank you for a thoughtful and relatively clear articulation of your perspective, especially regarding agency and determinism. I think we’re starting to converge on some shared understanding of how these concepts operate, even if we ultimately diverge on their implications.

From my perspective, the challenge with your notion of "potency" isn’t its intrigue or even its appeal. It’s that it lacks demonstrable evidence within the framework of what we can empirically observe and measure, and it necessarily violates determinism, which is backed by mountains of evidence. Let me explain why this is crucial and how it aligns with what you’ve described.

Under determinism, agency as you describe it—"a cubic centimeter of a chance" to act outside material processes—becomes problematic because it implies an exception to causation. Determinism, grounded in the conservation laws and the fundamental interactions, shows that all changes in the physical world result from interactions that conserve energy, momentum, and other quantities. What you call "potency" must either align with these laws or explicitly violate them. If it aligns with them, then it’s part of the deterministic framework; if it violates them, then we’re stepping into uncharted territory that contradicts everything we know about the physical world.

Here’s where I think my view addresses your concerns about agency: determinism doesn’t negate agency—it reframes it. Agency, in my view, is a function of the brain’s capacity to learn, adapt, and project outcomes based on prior experiences. You mentioned that "we are molecules swept along," but even within this deterministic flow, our learning and memory allow us to take actions now that shape how we respond in the future. For instance, when you practice a skill or study a subject, you’re not exerting "free will" in the absolute sense, but you are aligning deterministic processes in a way that modifies your future capabilities. In this sense, agency becomes agency-delayed—rooted in deterministic principles yet profoundly impactful over time.

The potency you describe—a power outside of time, space, and material processes—is intriguing but, in my view, unnecessary to explain human behavior or experience. Everything you attribute to this external potency can be understood through deterministic processes. The brain’s ability to generate ideas, innovate, or even connect with abstract notions like "purpose" or "transcendence" arises from the complexity of neural networks and the immense capacity of deterministic systems to produce emergent phenomena. This isn’t to strip away wonder or mystery but to ground it in what we can observe and understand.

You’re correct that I don’t see evidence for anything that operates outside causation. Nobody ever has. This isn’t a limitation of imagination but a commitment to the principles that consistently and reliably explain how the universe works. If you believe that potency exists outside the causal domain, then the burden is on you to provide evidence or a coherent mechanism for how this operates and interacts with the physical world. Simply conceiving of it doesn’t make it real—just as conceiving of unicorns doesn’t prove their existence.

Finally, I think where we fundamentally differ is in the necessity of invoking something outside determinism to account for human experience. You seem to feel that something essential is lost without it, while I believe determinism not only accounts for but enhances our understanding of agency, creativity, and purpose. If you see a gap in this framework that only your concept of potency can fill, I would genuinely like to hear how and why. Until then, I remain grounded in a system that explains everything we observe without requiring exceptions to the principles that govern the universe.
Belinda
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

Post by Belinda »

I second Mike's thanks to Alexis J, and I include also Dubious,for the explicit essay.
I'm sorry therefore to object that the cubic centimetre of freedom which Alexis claims we have is not free but on the contrary is chance or causelessness.

What freedom we have within the deterministic system relates not to a sliver of something uncaused but to the quality and quantity of our understanding of the system/God. Our moral responsibility therefore , still within the system, is to help ourselves and others to their relative freedom.
The deterministic system rules out 'Free Will' but does not rule out relative freedom from past errors.

" The religious" are a demographic who as individuals vary in personality, needs, and understanding. The great world religions despite all their faults mediate how to live better lives.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

BigMike wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 9:54 am From my perspective, the challenge with your notion of "potency" isn’t its intrigue or even its appeal. It’s that it lacks demonstrable evidence within the framework of what we can empirically observe and measure, and it necessarily violates determinism, which is backed by mountains of evidence. Let me explain why this is crucial and how it aligns with what you’ve described.
You may need to talk more to people who live in accord with some part of the worldview and existential philosophy that I allude to in order to better examine “demonstrable evidence”. The living of life, as I put it, does not occur in a laboratory, and I assure you (because I read widely and not only texts from our own age) that many people have written about *experience* that creates a different picture than the one that you allude to. To speak about allusion and insinuation in respect to your position, and the force with which you express and defend it, is highly relevant to my critique of it.

I suggest that you have and that you wield a perspective that acts as a block against a certain self-investigation and thus a certain self-knowledge that would reveal aspect of life here that, at the very least, present contradictions to you adamant theories. For this reason I do refer to *the psychological* when I examine philosophical positions. You cannot separate *the man* from the elaborated theories that the man assembles and then forwards. If *all speech is sermonic* that means that our speech has as an initial intention to influence how others think, see and perceive — and also act. So, I merely point out that you are, indeed, an activist for a perspective and in your case a large part of your activism’s purpose is bound up in your *atheism*. In order to understand our age we must better understand the atheist’s framework and, at least in significant part, this is psychological work.

Please do note though that I am acutely aware that all the tales I might tell in respect to my own *spiritual life* are subjective. The issue of subjectivity is a topic all to itself but it cannot be avoided. And many times and in a great deal that I write I talk about this issue. There are, obviously, extremely muddled accounts of inner, spiritual life. The religious zealotry of, for example, the Benny Hinn crowd or the deeply paranoid and excessively imaginative accounts of those who express their view of reality such as the Q-Anon crowd is an example of hyper-psychological aberrations within the human psyche. See for example The Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America by Michael Burkun.

Religious imagination, especially when paranoid and deranged, is absurdly problematic. Much of this should be seen as connecting with *mass hysteria* and, certainly, anyone with two eyes can verify the degree to which our world is maddened with bizarre perceptual positions that can only be examined psychologically.

However, and with that said, I must also refer to another order of person and another order of experience of those with *spiritual lives*. In my view much has to do with the purity of the individual, or put another way the degree of that their imaginations are polluted or driven by contaminating influences. I do not want to side-track into a discussion on contemporary society and the madness of crowds, however it is really my larger topic of interest: What is going on today in contemporary culture.
Under determinism, agency as you describe it—"a cubic centimeter of a chance" to act outside material processes—becomes problematic because it implies an exception to causation. Determinism, grounded in the conservation laws and the fundamental interactions, shows that all changes in the physical world result from interactions that conserve energy, momentum, and other quantities. What you call "potency" must either align with these laws or explicitly violate them. If it aligns with them, then it’s part of the deterministic framework; if it violates them, then we’re stepping into uncharted territory that contradicts everything we know about the physical world.
Trust me, I definitely recognize how my reference to that “cubic centimeter” of chance to act against all that determines us, and to refer to a supernatural potency with existence outside of the system, is “problematic”. However, I am not a zealot of my own views, and I am not a zealot of any particular religious modality except that I highly respect Catholic social theory and consider it to be superior in depth to other religious theories and social programs. But that is a separate issue.

But I need to remind you that at a most essential point I oppose your ideological construct because it is atheistic at its root. Not only will you, must you, oppose all that is lower, twisted, confused, jumbled and even recklessly maddened in the paranoid religious zealotry, but you must necessarily reject all of the *influence* that I for example place in the highest dimensions of religious valuation and spiritual realization. And that is why I continually say that there is something of vital value to be seen and defended in our own Christian traditions. But I agree that my position, certainly on this forum and in spaces that share the general mind-set of this forum, is not shared nor understood.

But since you and I come from positions in which we present and defend perspectives, and if indeed *all speech is sermonic*, I have to make it plain that I defend something I consider vital. In that sense (and I say this subjectively) it is not negotiable. But then neither is yours!
Here’s where I think my view addresses your concerns about agency: determinism doesn’t negate agency—it reframes it. Agency, in my view, is a function of the brain’s capacity to learn, adapt, and project outcomes based on prior experiences. You mentioned that "we are molecules swept along," but even within this deterministic flow, our learning and memory allow us to take actions now that shape how we respond in the future.
Well let’s consider your *reframing* with another description of it:
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 6:06 pmYour brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.
This is an operative, determining and ideologically-driven set of assertions that reframes human being. It is an anthropology. And this ideology, and your *philosophy* connects with real and tangible trends in our present which, as I say and others have said to you, have alarming implications. But this has already been brought out, hasn’t it?
The potency you describe—a power outside of time, space, and material processes—is intriguing but, in my view, unnecessary to explain human behavior or experience.
Of course it is unnecessary! I understand your position, BigMake.
You’re correct that I don’t see evidence for anything that operates outside causation. Nobody ever has.
The issue, or the problem, of how invisible agency intersects with our world, and ourselves, is definitely a knotty set. I grant you all the skepticism that you have as having validity. I will only say that there are many thinking people, with rigorous academic and scientific backgrounds, who represent very different approaches and views. But that is not my domain. So you will have to research it on your own.
Finally, I think where we fundamentally differ is in the necessity of invoking something outside determinism to account for human experience.
That is certainly the case. However, and where a deterministic and conditionistic perspective has validity, I do not oppose it. I simply see it in a larger context.
Under determinism, agency as you describe it—"a cubic centimeter of a chance" to act outside material processes—becomes problematic because it implies an exception to causation.
I see and understand what you are getting at. And I have told you that I cannot present you with a tangible mechanism whereby what is metaphysical or supernatural to our self influences the self. But since I regard such influence as operating in an intangible realm, I remain within my *loop* of explanation and understand that this is unintelligible — incoherent — as far as you are concerned.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 5:46 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 5:05 am Mike has me in his penalty box, so: he ain't readin' my posts (supposedly).
Me too, probably.
I would be surprised if he passed up the drama of telling you he was ignoring you.
BigMike
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

Post by BigMike »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 1:52 pm
BigMike wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 9:54 am From my perspective, the challenge with your notion of "potency" isn’t its intrigue or even its appeal. It’s that it lacks demonstrable evidence within the framework of what we can empirically observe and measure, and it necessarily violates determinism, which is backed by mountains of evidence. Let me explain why this is crucial and how it aligns with what you’ve described.
You may need to talk more to people who live in accord with some part of the worldview and existential philosophy that I allude to in order to better examine “demonstrable evidence”. The living of life, as I put it, does not occur in a laboratory, and I assure you (because I read widely and not only texts from our own age) that many people have written about *experience* that creates a different picture than the one that you allude to. To speak about allusion and insinuation in respect to your position, and the force with which you express and defend it, is highly relevant to my critique of it.

I suggest that you have and that you wield a perspective that acts as a block against a certain self-investigation and thus a certain self-knowledge that would reveal aspect of life here that, at the very least, present contradictions to you adamant theories. For this reason I do refer to *the psychological* when I examine philosophical positions. You cannot separate *the man* from the elaborated theories that the man assembles and then forwards. If *all speech is sermonic* that means that our speech has as an initial intention to influence how others think, see and perceive — and also act. So, I merely point out that you are, indeed, an activist for a perspective and in your case a large part of your activism’s purpose is bound up in your *atheism*. In order to understand our age we must better understand the atheist’s framework and, at least in significant part, this is psychological work.

Please do note though that I am acutely aware that all the tales I might tell in respect to my own *spiritual life* are subjective. The issue of subjectivity is a topic all to itself but it cannot be avoided. And many times and in a great deal that I write I talk about this issue. There are, obviously, extremely muddled accounts of inner, spiritual life. The religious zealotry of, for example, the Benny Hinn crowd or the deeply paranoid and excessively imaginative accounts of those who express their view of reality such as the Q-Anon crowd is an example of hyper-psychological aberrations within the human psyche. See for example The Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America by Michael Burkun.

Religious imagination, especially when paranoid and deranged, is absurdly problematic. Much of this should be seen as connecting with *mass hysteria* and, certainly, anyone with two eyes can verify the degree to which our world is maddened with bizarre perceptual positions that can only be examined psychologically.

However, and with that said, I must also refer to another order of person and another order of experience of those with *spiritual lives*. In my view much has to do with the purity of the individual, or put another way the degree of that their imaginations are polluted or driven by contaminating influences. I do not want to side-track into a discussion on contemporary society and the madness of crowds, however it is really my larger topic of interest: What is going on today in contemporary culture.
Under determinism, agency as you describe it—"a cubic centimeter of a chance" to act outside material processes—becomes problematic because it implies an exception to causation. Determinism, grounded in the conservation laws and the fundamental interactions, shows that all changes in the physical world result from interactions that conserve energy, momentum, and other quantities. What you call "potency" must either align with these laws or explicitly violate them. If it aligns with them, then it’s part of the deterministic framework; if it violates them, then we’re stepping into uncharted territory that contradicts everything we know about the physical world.
Trust me, I definitely recognize how my reference to that “cubic centimeter” of chance to act against all that determines us, and to refer to a supernatural potency with existence outside of the system, is “problematic”. However, I am not a zealot of my own views, and I am not a zealot of any particular religious modality except that I highly respect Catholic social theory and consider it to be superior in depth to other religious theories and social programs. But that is a separate issue.

But I need to remind you that at a most essential point I oppose your ideological construct because it is atheistic at its root. Not only will you, must you, oppose all that is lower, twisted, confused, jumbled and even recklessly maddened in the paranoid religious zealotry, but you must necessarily reject all of the *influence* that I for example place in the highest dimensions of religious valuation and spiritual realization. And that is why I continually say that there is something of vital value to be seen and defended in our own Christian traditions. But I agree that my position, certainly on this forum and in spaces that share the general mind-set of this forum, is not shared nor understood.

But since you and I come from positions in which we present and defend perspectives, and if indeed *all speech is sermonic*, I have to make it plain that I defend something I consider vital. In that sense (and I say this subjectively) it is not negotiable. But then neither is yours!
Here’s where I think my view addresses your concerns about agency: determinism doesn’t negate agency—it reframes it. Agency, in my view, is a function of the brain’s capacity to learn, adapt, and project outcomes based on prior experiences. You mentioned that "we are molecules swept along," but even within this deterministic flow, our learning and memory allow us to take actions now that shape how we respond in the future.
Well let’s consider your *reframing* with another description of it:
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 6:06 pmYour brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.
This is an operative, determining and ideologically-driven set of assertions that reframes human being. It is an anthropology. And this ideology, and your *philosophy* connects with real and tangible trends in our present which, as I say and others have said to you, have alarming implications. But this has already been brought out, hasn’t it?
The potency you describe—a power outside of time, space, and material processes—is intriguing but, in my view, unnecessary to explain human behavior or experience.
Of course it is unnecessary! I understand your position, BigMake.
You’re correct that I don’t see evidence for anything that operates outside causation. Nobody ever has.
The issue, or the problem, of how invisible agency intersects with our world, and ourselves, is definitely a knotty set. I grant you all the skepticism that you have as having validity. I will only say that there are many thinking people, with rigorous academic and scientific backgrounds, who represent very different approaches and views. But that is not my domain. So you will have to research it on your own.
Finally, I think where we fundamentally differ is in the necessity of invoking something outside determinism to account for human experience.
That is certainly the case. However, and where a deterministic and conditionistic perspective has validity, I do not oppose it. I simply see it in a larger context.
Under determinism, agency as you describe it—"a cubic centimeter of a chance" to act outside material processes—becomes problematic because it implies an exception to causation.
I see and understand what you are getting at. And I have told you that I cannot present you with a tangible mechanism whereby what is metaphysical or supernatural to our self influences the self. But since I regard such influence as operating in an intangible realm, I remain within my *loop* of explanation and understand that this is unintelligible — incoherent — as far as you are concerned.
Alexis,

You have painted yourself into a corner with your continued defense of this so-called "potency," a mysterious force outside time, space, and material processes, that you claim influences human agency. The problem isn’t just that this idea is "problematic" in light of established science—it’s that it directly contradicts the deterministic framework you claim to partially accept. Your position is like watching Chris Matthews sheepishly affirming belief in virgin births—not because it holds up to scrutiny, but because his faith obligates him to say so. You’re doing the same thing, only with more poetic flourishes.

Let’s get to the heart of the matter. You admit you can’t provide a mechanism or evidence for this "potency." You acknowledge it doesn’t align with the principles of causality or the physical laws that govern our universe. And yet, you continue to defend it, not on empirical grounds but on a subjective, faith-based conviction that this must exist because you feel it does. That’s not philosophy or reason—it’s dogma wrapped in lofty rhetoric.

Here’s where your argument falls apart. You simultaneously accept determinism in the unfolding of the cosmos and in the biological and physical processes of human life. You even acknowledge that every action we take is constrained by and dependent on the conditions that preceded it. Yet, you cling to this notion of a "cubic centimeter of a chance," which would require a complete suspension of the laws of physics to exist. Under determinism, every action is caused. Causation isn’t optional, and nothing in our understanding of the universe suggests there is room for a causeless "potency" to wiggle in and override the deterministic chain of events.

You can say it’s "intangible" or "invisible," but these are just ways of avoiding the reality that your position doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. If you truly believed in the deterministic principles you claim to partially accept, you’d recognize that this "potency" can’t exist without invalidating those principles entirely. You’re playing a double game, asserting the primacy of determinism while clinging to an exception that undermines it.

And let’s not forget your repeated appeals to subjectivity and "spiritual life." You imply that because some people report subjective experiences of this "potency," it must have validity. But subjective experiences are not evidence of anything beyond the neural processes that create them. A person’s feeling of transcendence or connection to a higher power doesn’t prove the existence of a supernatural force; it proves the brain is capable of producing those feelings under certain conditions. This is entirely consistent with determinism and doesn’t require the addition of any mystical or supernatural elements.

You’ve said that I "cannot understand" your position because of my adherence to determinism. But the truth is, your position is incoherent within its own framework. You claim to understand determinism, yet you defend a notion that blatantly violates it. That’s not a failure of understanding on my part—it’s a contradiction on yours.

So, I’ll ask again, plainly: What evidence or mechanism do you have to support this "potency"? And if you can’t provide one, why should anyone take it seriously when it contradicts everything we know about how the universe operates? If your answer is "it’s beyond understanding," then admit that what you’re defending isn’t reason or logic—it’s faith. And faith has no place in a discussion about what is demonstrable and true.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

BigMike wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 2:26 pm Let’s get to the heart of the matter. You admit you can’t provide a mechanism or evidence for this "potency." You acknowledge it doesn’t align with the principles of causality or the physical laws that govern our universe. And yet, you continue to defend it, not on empirical grounds but on a subjective, faith-based conviction that this must exist because you feel it does. That’s not philosophy or reason—it’s dogma wrapped in lofty rhetoric.
I have already been to “the heart of the matter” and for years so my differences with your position are nothing new.

I did not say that my sense about other causal influence “doesn’t align with” our existence here and that is because, as I clearly state, I refer to levels of experience that do not appear on your maps nor in your mapping.

Nor would I use the term “faith-based conviction” in your sense (with its insinuation) but only my subjective experience backed up (reinforced perhaps) by a wider reading than I expect you will allow.

I see that you wish to construct you ideological platform on an absolutely sure base, and this necessarily invalidates entirely the perspective I offer up, or reduces it to hallucination and illusion, and in this way you present yourself as scientist-priest (of that perspective). I only point out to you that there are people with solid scientific backgrounds who see things differently and present another picture.

It is not that I “feel” it exists — whatever it is — it is that my life-experience has led me to hold to a different picture.
And if you can’t provide one, why should anyone take it seriously when it contradicts everything we know about how the universe operates?
I make no specific appeal or recommendations. You continually refer to what we know about the universe as if it is all settled! I intuit that it is not (that’s a personal subjectivity), and there are many science-oriented people, more up to date than I am, who assert perspectives closer to mine than to yours.
Last edited by Alexis Jacobi on Tue Dec 31, 2024 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 5:46 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 5:05 am Mike has me in his penalty box, so: he ain't readin' my posts (supposedly).
Me too, probably.

But it's alright. It was physical causality that put us there, not Mike.
That's what he'd have us believe, yeah. He's a meat machine, lacking autonomy and response ability.

Funny how he keeps acting, responding, exactly as what he sez he's not: a free will frustrated with and by other free wills.
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

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BigMike wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 9:54 amI don’t see evidence for anything that operates outside causation.
Look in the mirror, Mike.
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

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BigMike wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 2:26 pm But the truth is, your position is incoherent within its own framework.
My position, such as it is, presents aspects that are untenable or problematic, I admit this fully. I think knowledge systems today present all sorts of contradictions. And I think it worthwhile to examine all if this from the perspective of a master metaphysician.

That is, I am pretty sure, the base of my own shtick: to propose an encompassing perspective.
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

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Another cut & paste, so, again, flaws or errors in the formatting are mine, not Machan's.

-----

Agent Causation Defended: Theorists v. their Theories

Tibor Machan

“... the [theorist] cannot present a picture of man which patently contradicts his behavior in presenting that picture.”
Bannister, “Comment,” in Borger & Cioffi, eds., Explanation in the Behavioural Sciences (Cambridge UP, 1970), p. 417.
Puppets on a String?

It seems like economists and other social scientists want to explain, via factors and variables, various events, including the development of institutions, in human history. This means they want to point to such factors as the preconditions of those events. Yet, as theorists they also take the initiative to advance various theories, they set out to figure things out, organize their experiences, pick and choose what is relevant and what can be left aside.

Aren’t these facts in mutual tension? If we and all of what we do can be explained by reference to impersonal causes, factors that force us to behave in the various ways we do, where does our own creative initiative enter the picture? Is it then not through and through que sera, sera, after all? Are we just like the puppets we observe at amusement parks, being moved around without any will of their own, in the end? Isn’t even the idea of “original work” an oxymoron?

One reason so many find it a simple matter to dismiss the idea of free will is that they take it as axiomatic, utterly undeniable, that there can be behavior that isn’t caused by events that precede it. What is not considered as even a possibility, let alone a fact of reality, is that we ourselves could be causes so that some, maybe even the most significant, actions we take are to be explained by reference to our own causal agency or potency.

That I am the being whose actions produce these lines on a computer screen, who makes the movements with his fingers, guided by his judgments, that produce the text you are reading, that idea is deemed metaphysically impossible even by many who would otherwise not see themselves as having any metaphysical views at all. But what I do is seen by them as necessarily the result of events that causally impinge on me and make me act.

To explain this by reference to something I initiated—started on my own—is taken as an idea that’s out and out nonsense. Every event, including the movements of my fingers, the judgment made by me (with my mind or brain) that direct these fingers, must have been, the thesis goes, produced by a preceding event. Otherwise, it is held, the event could not have take place— there cannot be self-causation or agent causation or being causation.

And all this applies, of course, to these thinkers themselves—what they say and do, and what great scientists, composers, novelists or anyone else otherwise deemed to be a creative individual do—simply had to have happened. There is no room here for original authorship, agency or choice (initiative). Those concepts, as the late B. F. Skinner would put it, are all “pre-scientific.” Yet, some object. As the late Roger W. Sperry put it:

“We no longer seek ultimate nature of reality within the smallest physical elements, nor in their innermost essence. Instead the search is redirected to focus primarily on the patterning of the elements, on their differential pacing and timing and the progressive compounding of patterns of patterns, and on their evolving nature and complexity.” (1)

Spooky Action

I wish to offer some objections to this view and provide an alternative that would not be subject to the charge of my defending a kind of causation that is mysterious or spooky — in other words, nonexistent by scientifically respectable standards.

But first here is one of the preeminent champion of the view that no initiative can exist but with a twist, namely that despite the absence of original actions of any kind, we aren’t fated to do what we do, only a determinism, namely, that everything we do depends on something else that has happened and has impinged upon us. This is the philosopher Daniel Dennett and here is how he puts his point:

“Fatalism is the idea that something’s going to happen no matter what you do. Determinism is the idea that what you do depends. What happens depends on what you do, what you do depends on what you know, what you know depends on what you’re caused to know, and so forth — but still, what you do matters. There’s a big difference between that and fatalism. Fatalism is determinism with you left out. If I accomplish one thing in this book, I want to break the bad habit of putting determinism and inevitability together. Inevitability means unavoidability, and if you think about what avoiding means, then you realize that in a deterministic world there’s lots of avoidance. The capacity to avoid has been evolving for billions of years. There are very good avoiders now. There’s no conflict between being an avoider and living in a deterministic world. There’s been a veritable explosion of evitability on this planet, and it’s all independent of determinism.” (2)

In this discussion I will be focusing on some of the points Dennett raises above as well as on the framework that he appears to presuppose for some of the terms he uses in his discussion.

When we think of ourselves acting in the world, most of us tend to assume we can cause things to happen.(3) For one, we take our actions to be, well, our actions, not just movements or behaviors that we happen to have undergone.

We often make or produce stuff, as I am doing when I write these thoughts down or you, when you compose a poem, organize a division of a company or arrange the flowers in your garden.

Indeed, human history is believed by most of us to consist of more or less significant things people have done, badly or well. Art, science, technology, politics, diplomacy, economics and the rest are all supposedly spheres of human conduct. And it is also thought to be comprised of actions that we might not have taken, such as built gas ovens to burn Jews, run plantations where slaves where owned, or constructed gulags where members of reactionary classes where kept captive for years.
All such actions most of us tend to distinguish from stuff that just happens, more or less significant, more or less beneficial, but we couldn’t do anything about. That earthquake in California, the tsunami in Southern Asia and that hurricane Katrina, those all happened—we didn’t do them. The rain and the virus that has produced some of the damages from which we have suffered, a flood and a widespread illness, respectively, weren’t our doing. But the damage-control applied to them, via medicine or engineering, were.

Now there are those who deny that there really is much of a difference between these two kinds of occurrences despite the fact that vis-à-vis the global warming debate the issue is central. (4) They argue that both are happenings, with some involving human beings as intermediary factors, while with others without such involvement. But in the final analysis what we do is no less a kind of happening in which we have a role, as a rather complex link in the chain of events that brings about the behavior we otherwise, misguidedly, consider acts we produce.

Indeed, the issue is whether when we do have such a part in the process that brings about the action, are we in any way decisive, first causes or are we merely one of many steps in a causal chain. And there are a great many rather influential thinkers who deny that we are—or even could possibly be—such first causes. We cannot originate or initiate anything—it would be a spooky thing if we could.

Free Will and Determinism

Yet, is that right? Why would it be spooky if we could produce something on our own? We certainly assume at times we can do just such a thing, as when we think of Einstein having originated the theory of special relativity or Mozart having originated his Requiem.

In fact, in less dramatic ways we think of ourselves as engaging in original creations, as when we put together a funny expression or take an unusual picture. My own children often let on to their belief in having said something original, when after they say it they have a big grin on their faces, indicating that, yes, they know this is a novelty.

OK, but perhaps we are just mistaken to think these self-aggrandizing thoughts about what we can do. The famous behaviorist psychologist B. F. Skinner, who taught at Harvard University, argued that these ideas are pre-scientific and Dennett argues that the kind of freedom of the will, the kind that involves agent causation, is mysterious and, in any case, not worth having. This is the sort that would have us be capable of being original actors, creators, and producers. Dennett says we couldn’t make any sense of such freedom of action, certainly not of any kind of responsibility for actions we take if it did exist. In his recent book, Dennett tells us:

“How does an agent cause an effect without there being an event (in the agent, presumably) that is the cause of that effect (and is itself the effect of an earlier cause, and so forth)? Agent causation is a frankly mysterious doctrine, positing something unparalleled by anything we discover in the causal processes of chemical reactions, nuclear fission and fusion, magnetic attraction, hurricanes, volcanoes, or such biological processes as metabolism, growth, immune reactions, and photosynthesis.” (p. 100) (5).

First of all, the main argument for free will is no more mysterious than any arguments that rely on a dialectical move. If, as it turns out to be the case, free will is assumed even as one tries to deny it — in other words, the action of attempting to deny free will presupposes that the agent is capable of making original choices — that is sufficient to present a very strong case for free will.

And the kind of independent thinking involved in argumentation does exactly that, namely, presuppose free will, the capacity to make choices, to take the initiative as a conceptually conscious agent. For what worth would any argument be if it merely amounted to a computational or genetic process? It would be no more compelling as argument as would be an “argument” advanced by a computer or parrot.

The reason we can understand the reference to these as arguments is that we, human agents, can take them as such. But as products of computers or parrots they aren’t arguments, only a bunch of sounds strung together.

Second, there is that aspect of the case for free will that relies on introspection. We often know about things this way, as when we answer our doctors very confidently about where we feel a pain in our bodies, or remember an event for which there is no evidence any longer apart from our memory. These are completely reliable kinds of knowledge and part of what gives us knowledge of our free will is that we know we often choose, initiate action, produce or create what we didn’t have to produce or create.

As I am writing the next few words in this discussion, I know at every moment that I could stop, get up and get a soda from the fridge or continue with my project, as indeed I am choosing to do.

Finally, is Dennett’s distinction between determinism and inevitability (or fatalism) sound? Let’s look again at what he says:

“Inevitability means unavoidability, and if you think about what avoiding means, then you realize that in a deterministic world there’s lots of avoidance. The capacity to avoid has been evolving for billions of years. There are very good avoiders now.”

Now suppose that I am typing along here and someone maintains that I am fully determined to do this. I, however, in order to try to show that I am not, stop. Have I avoided something now?

No, not according to determinism. Some factor, such as the presentation of the idea that I am determined, along with my hard wired and trained responsiveness to such a presentation, have simply come into play to redirect the flow of events, so that I am no longer typing along but stopping, reacting to the factors or forces.

Could I have done otherwise? Not according to the determinist view. Was it inevitable what happened? Surely, the presentation of the determinist’s idea couldn’t be avoided; my reaction couldn’t either, and so on and so forth. What Dennett takes to be a serious difference between determinism and fatalism is only a difference in how detailed a story one is going to tell.

Sure, there is no fatalism of the sort where merely large movements proceed, unstoppably; but there is a fatalism of the sort where zillions of micro-movements interact in ways that even a humongous computer could not predict exactly what is going to happen next. Still, a sophisticated fatalist would rightly hold that whatever is going to happen, is fated to have happened, all the details being considered.

So, pace Dennett, if we know what avoidance means, we know that, paraphrasing him, “in a fatalistic world there’s lots of avoidance.” Why? Because what is called avoidance is a form of behavior that is determined to occur, just as any other form of behavior is determined to occur.

What the above does not show is the right account of free will, only that free will is real, it exists, indeed, it is undeniable for us who are acting agents. The theory of agent causality serves as an account of free will, not as a proof of it, however. If it fails, however, perhaps the idea that we have free will is false. Maybe a deterministic account of the phenomenon of free will shall succeed where the agent causality account has failed.

The Nature of Causality

So, it does matter whether the agent causality account of free will is sound. The first obstacle to this is the claim, made by Dennett and others, that the very idea of agent causation is mysterious, spooky. But why is Dennett so confident that agent causation would have to be mysterious? Well, to answer we need to consider a famous argument about the nature of causality that occurred back in the 18th century.

It was David Hume who reasoned that if we depended for knowing the world entirely and solely on our sensory information, then causality itself must not be thought of as any kind of production or power. The billiard ball that strikes another and is taken, thus, to have made the other move has no (empirically) demonstrable productive powers at all.

Instead, if we depend on our senses for knowledge, all we can justifiably claim is that the first billiard ball’s motion was followed by that of the second, and the oft-repeated instances of this result in our coming to gain the idea of causality. (This is an odd move, by the way, since Hume is depending on a productive notion of causality to explain our belief in causality.)

Regular or constant sequences like that are, for Hume, all that causes are, involving no evident causal powers. Now the assumption that all of what we know comes from our senses is a pretty radical one and although Hume’s idea of causality was very influential, most scientists and nearly all the rest of us did not fully accept his claim about causality because it rested on his radical empiricism.

But many did accept a good deal of it, so the idea that there can be something productive in a causal relationship has been dropped by most of those who think about causal connections in the world. It is this idea that is deemed to be spooky or mysterious by many because the productivity of a causal factor assumes something that is not directly evident — it isn’t perceived by the senses. Instead it is inferred from the entire context of the causal situation.

So, for example, that the billiard ball has something about it — say, its solidity, its mass and density – that would produce an impact on another billiard ball so this other ball would be moved by it, is something that we do not see but infer. And although much of science welcomes direct evidence, first and foremost, as it considers convincing explanatory stories, science also makes room for inferred powers.

For instance, black holes could not be detected by way of direct evidence for a long time, since by their very nature they didn’t release any sensory information since their immense gravitational force did not allow such information, involving as it has to the emission of light, to escape for us to perceive it. So, the existence and nature of black holes were both discovered by inference, by noticing facts that could best be explained by the postulation of the black hole. (This is, of course, how the reality of many other beings are routinely established — for example, intentions, motives, wants, wishes, expectations, and so forth.)

The existence of black holes – super-massive singularities so dense that not even light can escape from their gravity once it enters the “event horizon” – can only be inferred, as there is no way of directly observing them in nature.

In response to those like Dennett, then, who deny the possibility of agent causality because they regard productive powers of causal factors something mysterious or spooky, such powers are not directly perceived but they can be inferred from other facts that can be. So, if the best explanation of what makes the second billiard ball move is that the first has certain properties which can produce this movement in an entity such as the second ball, then that is a conclusion that is certain beyond a reasonable doubt (although not certain in the incorrigible, absolute sense Descartes’ idea of knowledge, which Hume deployed for sensory impressions, would have required).

Similarly, the power of human agents to be first causes can also be inferred along these lines. Given a certain composition and constitution of their brains, given their properties, they are capable of making original choices, of taking the initiative, just as we ordinarily believe we can.

Inferred Powers, or Who Produced the Theory?

Dennett and other compatibilists hold that the kind of freedom that agent causation involves is not worth having. They argue that to attribute responsibility to human individuals is, ipso facto, to see them as explaining their conduct as determined, since “responsible” means causally potent. Yet, if agent causation is a fact, it provides the causal potency by which responsibility may be ascribed to individual human beings, not because their conduct is caused by prior events but because they are themselves beings that can cause actions. (6)

As such it provides, also, a foundation for something Dennett & Co. need to deny, namely, that when we consider our past conduct, we normally, routinely take it that we could have acted other than we did, all things being equal — so that, without any impersonal forces have to have caused us to do a different thing, we could indeed have done a different thing.

This is a view that underlies our ordinary understanding of human action, as well as our view of moral and legal responsibility and culpability. It is also something that is presupposed in criticism, say, of philosophical thinking — when Dennett construes this argument as misguided and not something anyone ought to accept, he, too, implicitly accepts that those who propose it could have done otherwise not because they could have been made to do otherwise but because they could have, on their own initiative, acted differently — say, thought harder about the topic at hand.

This isn’t the place where the full story of this capacity can be told but it is the place where it can be noted that the requisite evidence for such a capacity could involve inferred powers. These, in turn, need by no means be mysterious or spooky things, any more than the immense gravitational powers of black holes had to be deemed spooky or mysterious simply because no one could, until recently, directly perceive them, or one’s intention to work hard for the next year or motivation to feed one’s children need be mysterious or spooky things because these aren’t directly perceived.

There is more to reality than just what the senses can record, even if what that is needs to be fully squared with what the senses can record. And this fact, which has tripped up empiricist views such as logical positivism, is evident in the central point of this paper: No defender of determinism, or denier of free human agency, can account for one of the most evident facts that just cannot be missed, namely, that a theorist’s theory has that theorist as its cause — he or she produced the theory and might not have done so were it not for the causal efficacy that had been freely, as a matter of the theorist’s initiative, put in service of that product.

Endnotes:
(1) Roger W. Sperry (1995), “The Future of Psychology,” American Psychologist, Vol. 50, 506
(2) Daniel Dennett, Interview in Reason Magazine, May 2003 (http://www.reason.com/0305/fe.rb.pulling.shtml ).
(3) This, by the way, does not imply that we do not often act from habit—just note the ease with which Dennett, in the quote passages, makes reference to a “the bad habit of putting determinism and inevitability together.” For a good discussion of the compatibility of habitual conduct with human agency, see Bill Pollard (2006), “Explaining Actions With Habits,” American Philosophical Quarterly, 43, 57-69.
(4) A good popularizer of that view is Thomas W. Clark. (See his works at http://www.naturalism.org/clark_nec.htm .)
(5) Daniel Dennett, Freedom Evolves (New York: Viking, 2003), p. 100.
(6) This view is laid out and fully defended in Edward Pols, Acts of our being: a reflection on agency and responsibility (Amherst, MA: University of Massachusetts Press, 1982).
See, also, Tibor R. Machan, Initiative—Human Agency and Society (Stanford, CA: Hoover Institution Press, 2001).
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Re: Can the Religious Be Trusted?

Post by BigMike »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 2:50 pm
BigMike wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 2:26 pm Let’s get to the heart of the matter. You admit you can’t provide a mechanism or evidence for this "potency." You acknowledge it doesn’t align with the principles of causality or the physical laws that govern our universe. And yet, you continue to defend it, not on empirical grounds but on a subjective, faith-based conviction that this must exist because you feel it does. That’s not philosophy or reason—it’s dogma wrapped in lofty rhetoric.
I have already been to “the heart of the matter” and for years so my differences with your position are nothing new.

I did not say that my sense about other causal influence “doesn’t align with” our existence here and that is because, as I clearly state, I refer to levels of experience that do not appear on your maps nor in your mapping.

Nor would I use the term “faith-based conviction” in your sense (with its insinuation) but only my subjective experience backed up (reinforced perhaps) by a wider reading than I expect you will allow.

I see that you wish to construct you ideological platform on an absolutely sure base, and this necessarily invalidates entirely the perspective I offer up, or reduces it to hallucination and illusion, and in this way you present yourself as scientist-priest (of that perspective). I only point out to you that there are people with solid scientific backgrounds who see things differently and present another picture.

It is not that I “feel” it exists — whatever it is — it is that my life-experience has led me to hold to a different picture.
And if you can’t provide one, why should anyone take it seriously when it contradicts everything we know about how the universe operates?
I make no specific appeal or recommendations. You continually refer to what we know about the universe as if it is all settled! I intuit that it is not (that’s a personal subjectivity), and there are many science-oriented people, more up to date than I am, who assert perspectives closer to mine than to yours.
Alexis,

Your response continues to highlight the gulf between our perspectives, not because we differ in subjective experience—everyone’s experiences are, by nature, personal—but because you consistently attempt to grant your subjective impressions the status of objective insight without the supporting evidence or logical coherence required to do so.

You say your sense of "causal influence" doesn't align with the frameworks I reference because it exists on "levels of experience that do not appear on [my] maps." But that’s precisely the issue: if these "levels" don't manifest in observable, testable, or measurable ways, they remain purely speculative. Science doesn’t reject the unseen or unproven out of hand; it waits for evidence. Without it, your notion of potency remains indistinguishable from any other unverifiable claim—be it about divine intervention, spiritual forces, or metaphysical realms.

When you say this isn’t about a "faith-based conviction," but rather about your subjective experience and a broader reading, you’re simply relabeling faith to suit your argument. Faith, at its core, is belief without evidence, and what you describe aligns perfectly with that definition. The fact that others, no matter how learned, may share similar subjective impressions does not elevate those impressions to the level of scientific or philosophical validity. If it did, every shared delusion or baseless claim would carry equal weight with rigorously tested knowledge.

You insist that I treat the universe as "settled." This is a mischaracterization. The beauty of science and deterministic inquiry lies in their openness to revision when credible evidence emerges. But until that evidence exists, determinism, grounded in the observable principles of causation, conservation, and interaction, remains the best explanatory framework we have. To dismiss it or to invoke a contradictory, speculative "potency" without evidence is to reject not just determinism but the very principles of reason and inquiry that guide human understanding.

If your "intuition" tells you there is more to the universe than causation and physical law, that’s your prerogative. But intuition is not evidence. It’s a starting point at best—a hypothesis to be tested. To elevate it to a truth claim without subjecting it to the same scrutiny you demand of everything else is to abandon intellectual rigor in favor of a comforting narrative.

Finally, let’s revisit this: what exactly are you claiming about this "potency"? Is it an external force? A supernatural realm? A metaphysical overlay? And how, specifically, does it interact with the deterministic processes you claim to partially accept? If your position is that it’s beyond explanation or evidence, then admit it is faith-based and subjective, and stop dressing it up as something more. Otherwise, you’re simply conflating personal belief with universal truth, which does nothing to advance the conversation.
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