The Law of Identity is Refuted by Time/Change

[Wizard22]

Assuming there is some Object in existence, it could be anything:

Any and every Object in existence cannot stay in the same place and time, because time changes everything, even and especially below the Nano-level. This means that every nano-nano-nano-infinite miniscule fraction-second that passes, a change has occurred.

Because these changes occur, an Object can never be identical to "itself".



The only way an Object could possibly be "identical to itself", or have any so-called "Identity", is for the human brain to Abstract one, as an Ideal-permanent-state, that Never Changes.

Because this is a false-reality, imposed upon Existence by the human brain, the "Law of Identity" is only a purely subjective phenomenon, that persists to help the human mind cope with an ever Changing Universe. The human brain 'Synthesizes' Existence and Reality, to Subjective, Temporary, Opinion-Perspective-Based Understanding, in order to Cope with this ever Changing Universe.

Meanwhile, the state of Existence is perpetual change (ie. Chaos). The Object changes into a new iteration, an infinite times per second.



Therefore, there is no actual, real, "Identical Object" in Existence. Because there is no place (or TIME) in Existence that Change/Chaos does not take place. There is no state of Permanence. There is no Identity to base any or all Human Knowledge upon. It is, forever, sand beneath your feet. There is no Solidity in Existence. There is no Unchange.

There is no Identity.

[Wizard22]

What the human brain craves, perhaps more than anything else, is a semblance of Existence that does Not Change.

The human braves craves Immortality, an infinite State of Permanence, a Godly realm erased of Death.

Because this does not Exist in reality, in actuality, the human brain Fabricates it (Synthesis) as its Ideals/Ideal State.



The human brain then 'tricks itself' into believing that this permanent, astral, ethereal realm, realm of Pure Ideals (Plato), is the "Truer Reality".

This is how the first Self-Deception occurs, by which the human brain 'defends itself' (its own Ego) against a Chaotic, Changing Universe.

[Noax]

Any and every Object in existence cannot stay in the same place and time

This utterance makes no sense. To 'stay in place' implies that the object's coordinate location does not change over time. A given place and time is an event, and if an object is present at an event, that's a fact. It would be contradictory if it were also not present at that event, which is what 'cannot stay in the same place and time' implies. So I deny the assertion as self contradictory.

because time changes everything, even and especially below the Nano-level. This means that every nano-nano-nano-infinite miniscule fraction-second that passes, a change has occurred.

You violate your own assertion, since you're talking about an object at a different time, not it at the same time.

Because these changes occur, an Object can never be identical to "itself".

You mean the object is not in the same state at two different times. With that I will agree. It still being the same object or not is an abstraction, and pragmatically, most people consider an apple to be the same apple as the one there a minute ago. But you used the word 'identical' and implied identical state. Sure, the apple has aged. Is that all you're trying to point out? We know that.

The only way an Object could possibly be "identical to itself", or have any so-called "Identity", is for the human brain to Abstract one, as an Ideal-permanent-state, that Never Changes.

An object being identical to itself is a tautology. It is true by definition. So I deny this assertion which seem to be a blatant denial of that law. Perhaps you need to reword. I did talk about persistence of identity being a pragmatic abstraction, but even that doesn't imply permanence. The apple was recently created and will soon be eaten or rot. It is not permanent over time.

Because this is a false-reality, imposed upon Existence by the human brain, the "Law of Identity" is only a purely subjective phenomenon, that persists to help the human mind cope with an ever Changing Universe. The human brain 'Synthesizes' Existence and Reality, to Subjective, Temporary, Opinion-Perspective-Based Understanding, in order to Cope with this ever Changing Universe.

If I read this right, I think it was summarized by my use of 'pragmatic'.

For that matter, the whole concept of 'object' in the first place, is an abstraction. There is a collection of atoms, and the designation of that specific subset of atoms is designated as 'apple', an abstract labeling of the subset as an object. And that identity works. It serves the pragmatic purpose.

What the human brain craves

Perhaps a human craves this or that. A brain is part of a human, but it doesn't do any craving as an isolated system.

[Impenitent]

is the Earth in spring the same as the Earth in winter?

is the hydrogen electron at time 1, position 1 the same as the hydrogen electron at time 2, position 2?

definitions make the difference? superficial changes due to time and space lead to a myriad of changes

the object changes with a more precise measurement?

-Imp

[osgart]

Since I'm shaped by my past up until this very moment I would say there is a constancy of self that grows, and changes, but never forgets what once was, and sometimes still remains through the changes. The constancy of self never goes away even experiencing changes.

Also with regards to objects I would say they often endure though weathering change often.

At the smallest levels I would say as long as there is an ever-changing field the elements that make up that field are permanent though permanently changing.

Constancy and change are existential brothers. You can't have one without the other.

Man made objects wholly repaired over time is another story.

[Impenitent]

the ship of Theseus has sailed

-Imp

[Wizard22]

This utterance makes no sense. To 'stay in place' implies that the object's coordinate location does not change over time.

All coordinates change over time, even and especially in the same position. Time is also a coordinate.

There is no such thing that can be "frozen in time and place". Time affects all things, objects, existence.

A given place and time is an event, and if an object is present at an event, that's a fact. It would be contradictory if it were also not present at that event, which is what 'cannot stay in the same place and time' implies. So I deny the assertion as self contradictory.

Objects persist outside of events though. They don't cease existing before and after. An event is what humans know; outside of those events, humans do not know (and are ignorant of the existence).

because time changes everything, even and especially below the Nano-level. This means that every nano-nano-nano-infinite miniscule fraction-second that passes, a change has occurred.

You violate your own assertion, since you're talking about an object at a different time, not it at the same time.

All objects must be compared at different times, never at the same time.

You compare an object of yesterday, with today, and predict tomorrow. Time never 'disappears'.

Because these changes occur, an Object can never be identical to "itself".

You mean the object is not in the same state at two different times. With that I will agree. It still being the same object or not is an abstraction, and pragmatically, most people consider an apple to be the same apple as the one there a minute ago. But you used the word 'identical' and implied identical state. Sure, the apple has aged. Is that all you're trying to point out? We know that.

I'm arguing that we cannot know any original "Identity" of any object--because of the comparisons required by any point in space and time.

Thus, Identity is never Identical. That's the problem. There is no "Law" to Identity. Or if there were, then it would need to prove the difference between an "Original" time and place, versus all derivatives, which no 'science' or empiricism allows for. "Original states" of things, their supposed Identities, are purely hypothetical and theoretical, therefore not necessarily real.

The only way an Object could possibly be "identical to itself", or have any so-called "Identity", is for the human brain to Abstract one, as an Ideal-permanent-state, that Never Changes.

An object being identical to itself is a tautology. It is true by definition. So I deny this assertion which seem to be a blatant denial of that law. Perhaps you need to reword. I did talk about persistence of identity being a pragmatic abstraction, but even that doesn't imply permanence. The apple was recently created and will soon be eaten or rot. It is not permanent over time.

So you need to defend the Tautology of an "Original Identity". I argue, there's no such thing, and therefore no such "Law" to define such things.

Because this is a false-reality, imposed upon Existence by the human brain, the "Law of Identity" is only a purely subjective phenomenon, that persists to help the human mind cope with an ever Changing Universe. The human brain 'Synthesizes' Existence and Reality, to Subjective, Temporary, Opinion-Perspective-Based Understanding, in order to Cope with this ever Changing Universe.

If I read this right, I think it was summarized by my use of 'pragmatic'.

For that matter, the whole concept of 'object' in the first place, is an abstraction. There is a collection of atoms, and the designation of that specific subset of atoms is designated as 'apple', an abstract labeling of the subset as an object. And that identity works. It serves the pragmatic purpose.

So you agree that any supposed "Identity" is an Abstraction, hypothetical, and not necessarily Real then...not necessarily based on Reality?

What the human brain craves

Perhaps a human craves this or that. A brain is part of a human, but it doesn't do any craving as an isolated system.

Let's find out then.

[Wizard22]

definitions make the difference?

I'd say definitions "find" the difference. A hydrogen atom at point 1, time 1, is not identical to a hydrogen atom at point 2, time 2. Everything moves. Everything is affected by other objects (Gravity/Force). Therefore everything is changing and there really is not such thing as any 'Static' or permanent position. Any such "Original state" is Hypothetical, Hypothesis.

[Wizard22]

Since I'm shaped by my past up until this very moment I would say there is a constancy of self that grows, and changes, but never forgets what once was, and sometimes still remains through the changes. The constancy of self never goes away even experiencing changes.

Also with regards to objects I would say they often endure though weathering change often.

At the smallest levels I would say as long as there is an ever-changing field the elements that make up that field are permanent though permanently changing.

Constancy and change are existential brothers. You can't have one without the other.

Man made objects wholly repaired over time is another story.

Have you met people with Dementia or forgetfulness? A person's sense-of-self, consistency (Identity), is bound by memory. If a person ceases memorization, then their sense-of-self (and Identity) are lost.

Society reinforces Memory/Identity though. Just because a person forgets him/herself, doesn't mean the rest of society (or the world) forgets. Memories are also communal.

[Impenitent]

definitions make the difference?

I'd say definitions "find" the difference. A hydrogen atom at point 1, time 1, is not identical to a hydrogen atom at point 2, time 2. Everything moves. Everything is affected by other objects (Gravity/Force). Therefore everything is changing and there really is not such thing as any 'Static' or permanent position. Any such "Original state" is Hypothetical, Hypothesis.

which is only confused by language itself

dog A is not dog B but all dogs are dogs, unless they're hot

-Imp

[Noax]

All coordinates change over time, even and especially in the same position. Time is also a coordinate.

In a 4D model, time is a coordinate. In that model, objects have extension in all four dimensions and do not change. Your expression of measuring at a different time is the same as measuring an object at a different place. The front and rear bumpers of a bus are different, but they're both part of one object, the bus.

Given a more intuitive 3D model, time is not a coordinate, and a classical object evolves in place over time. Some don't. A proton for instance does not age. It can be stationary and is about as close to a persistent thing with an identity as you can get.

You compare an object of yesterday, with today, and predict tomorrow.

That sounds like the 3D model.

Thus, Identity is never Identical.

Identity is an abstraction. How about my proton example? How is a stationary proton not identical after a minute?

So you agree that any supposed "Identity" is an Abstraction, hypothetical, and not necessarily Real then...not necessarily based on Reality?

Pretty much, yea. It's an ideal, and no more real than any other ideal.

[popeye1945]

What the human brain craves, perhaps more than anything else, is a semblance of Existence that does Not Change.

The human braves craves Immortality, an infinite State of Permanence, a Godly realm erased of Death.

Because this does not Exist in reality, in actuality, the human brain Fabricates it (Synthesis) as its Ideals/Ideal State.



The human brain then 'tricks itself' into believing that this permanent, astral, ethereal realm, realm of Pure Ideals (Plato), is the "Truer Reality".

This is how the first Self-Deception occurs, by which the human brain 'defends itself' (its own Ego) against a Chaotic, Changing Universe.

Wizard22,

An interesting post. The physical world is meaningless in the absence of a conscious subject. Object has no meaning in and of itself, but only to biological consciousness. The world does not exist without consciousness. Identity is truly a mystical thing. A dreamy moving not quite thing, only the illusion is the grasp of the ring. Your introduction to time, change, and temporality intrigues me. I have to read more of what you say to be able to contribute much, but wow, a stirring post.

https://www.azquotes.com/author/19778-Heraclitus

[Magnus Anderson]

The author of the thread does not really understand what The Law of Identity is.

[Skepdick]

The author of the thread does not really understand what The Law of Identity is.

It's not him. It's you.

Code: Select all

❯ irb
irb(main):001> Time.now == Time.now
=> false

[Skepdick]

How is a stationary proton not identical after a minute?

When you observe a particle of a certain type, say an electron, now and here, this is to be regarded in principle as an isolated event. Even if you observe a similar particle a very short time at a spot very near to the first, and even if you have every reason to assume a causal connection between the first and the second observation, there is no true, unambiguous meaning in the assertion that it is the same particle you have observed in the two cases. The circumstances may be such that they render it highly convenient and desirable to express oneself so, but it is only an abbreviation of speech; for there are other cases where the ‘sameness’ becomes entirely meaningless; and there is no sharp boundary, no clear-cut distinction between them, there is a gradual transition over intermediate cases. And I beg to emphasize this and I beg you to believe it: It is not a question of being able to ascertain the identity in some instances and not being able to do so in others. It is beyond doubt that the question of ‘sameness’, of identity, really and truly has no meaning. --Erwin Schrödinger , Science and Humanism (1952, 16-8)

What this amounts to in practice is that physicist use "identical" synonymously with "indistinguishable". In precise, mathematical terms you might call this functional equivalence.

You really can't tell if it's the same proton; or a different proton in place of the original one.