Existence Is Infinite

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

daniel j lavender wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 1:18 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2024 3:49 pm"All things" is a distinction. "Existence" is a distinction. "All things exist" is a distinction. In other words any use of words is a distinction…
“All things” is also a phrase. But in that sense a phrase, a thing included as part of all things.

A phrase is a phrase. A thing. A distinction is a distinction. A thing.

All things are still all things, including such a phrase and such a distinction.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2024 3:49 pmIf existence itself is the only true thing as all things, and a thing requires comparison for it to stand apart so as to have the distinction necessary for it to be a thing…
As stated earlier you are attempting to present all things as only a thing. That is fallacious. All things are all things. You begin with a fallacious premise therefore everything that follows is also fallacious.

Existence requires no comparison to stand apart. That is your claim.

Existence is all. Existence requires no comparison to stand apart for it stands on its own; there is no other to stand apart from.

Existence requires no comparison. Existence just is.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2024 8:09 pm…while you gained a deeper insight into existence and infinity…
The term infinity carries certain connotations relegating its use in relation to the philosophy. Infinite is the preferred term.

Existence is the subject matter, the focus. The term infinite is simply a descriptor.

Infinity is a noun, infinite an adjective. The term infinity often involves flimsy notions and other baggage thus infinite is the preferred term.

Infinite is defined as unlimited or unrestricted. Existence, being unlimited, is not limited to the whole or limited to a thing. Existence is a thing, and every other thing, each thing and all things as the whole. Review the Existence Both Part And Whole section of the original essay.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2024 8:09 pm…while you gained a deeper insight into existence and infinity you might want to gain a deeper understanding of the opposite, the void, and in doing so gain a contrast through which you can merge into a more in depth conclusion, if a conclusion can be had.
The opposite of infinite is finite, not void.

There is not much to understand about void, assuming void is another term for nonexistence, as it does not actually exist beyond the term and concept. Anything understood, anything not understood concerns some thing or some things, not nothingness or nonexistence.

There is no added depth with void, with nonexistence because it does not exist to add any.

Existence is infinite. The depth is unfathomable.
If existence is infinite, not finite, than it is not a thing.

Question posed to DeepAI:

If there is only one everything and this everything has no comparison to allow it to be a distinct 1 does it thus necessitate it as nothing or rather 0?

Answer:

Your question dives into deep philosophical territory concerning the nature of existence, identity, and the implications of singularity. Let’s break it down step by step.
1. Understanding "One Everything"

When you refer to "one everything," you're positing a concept of totality—a singular, unified existence that encompasses all that is. This totality lacks parts, components, or distinctions that would allow it to be understood as a separate entity or as having unique characteristics.
2. Distinctions and Comparison

You point to the notion that this "everything" has “no comparison” to allow it to be distinct:

Comparison: For something to be perceived as a distinct entity (like "1"), there must be a framework of differentiation. We typically perceive things in relation to others—light exists because there's darkness, hot is understood in relation to cold, etc. Without distinctions, it becomes challenging to assert that something is "one" because the concept of "one" relies on identifying it against "other" or "more."

3. Implications: Necessitating "Nothing" or "0"

When you suggest that a lack of distinction might lead to the conclusion of "nothing or rather 0," you are raising a critical point about identity and existence:

Nothing and 0: In many philosophical and mathematical discussions, "0" can represent the absence of quantity or a placeholder for a null state. If "one everything" lacks distinguishable qualities or boundaries, it could theoretically be seen as indistinguishable from "nothing" or "0" because we cannot identify it as having any unique attributes—it does not contrast with anything.

4. Philosophical Perspectives

Here are some philosophical perspectives that relate to your proposition:

Monism: This view suggests that everything is fundamentally one and that apparent distinctions are illusory. Under monism, the idea of "one everything" is quite fitting; however, monists might argue that this unity doesn't necessarily mean it equates to "nothing" but rather indicates a holistic synthesis of existence.

Buddhism: In some Buddhist philosophies, the concept of "emptiness" (śūnyatā) teaches that all things lack inherent existence or essence. This does not mean they do not exist but that their existence is relational, contextual, and dependent on other factors.

Paradoxes of Identity: Considerations in identity theory might argue that if something cannot be distinguished, it raises questions about its existence or identity. This has implications in metaphysics, especially concerning universal vs. particular entities.

5. Conclusion

Thus, your assertion that an "everything" without distinctions could lead to the conclusion of it being "nothing" or "0" is quite thought-provoking. It challenges the very foundations of identity and existence as we understand them.

While "one everything" suggests a totality, the absence of distinguishable features (comparison) could imply an indistinguishable state, leading us to grapple with the paradox of existence versus non-existence.





In simpler terms your framework results in a paradox.
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daniel j lavender
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

Post by daniel j lavender »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:44 pmIf existence is infinite, not finite, than it is not a thing.
Existence is infinite and finite. The unlimitedness of existence is not limited to unlimitedness, existence also concerns limitation:
daniel j lavender wrote: Thu Jul 20, 2023 1:28 amExistence is infinite. Parts of existence, particular things are finite. Things are limited to limitedness.

However existence is infinite, existence is unlimited. This unlimitedness includes the limitedness of things.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:44 pmQuestion posed to DeepAI:

If there is only one everything and this everything has no comparison to allow it to be a distinct 1 does it thus necessitate it as nothing or rather 0?

Answer:

Your question dives into deep philosophical territory concerning the nature of existence, identity, and the implications of singularity. Let’s break it down step by step.
1. Understanding "One Everything"

When you refer to "one everything," you're positing a concept of totality—a singular, unified existence that encompasses all that is. This totality lacks parts, components, or distinctions that would allow it to be understood as a separate entity or as having unique characteristics.
2. Distinctions and Comparison

You point to the notion that this "everything" has “no comparison” to allow it to be distinct:

Comparison: For something to be perceived as a distinct entity (like "1"), there must be a framework of differentiation. We typically perceive things in relation to others—light exists because there's darkness, hot is understood in relation to cold, etc. Without distinctions, it becomes challenging to assert that something is "one" because the concept of "one" relies on identifying it against "other" or "more."

3. Implications: Necessitating "Nothing" or "0"

When you suggest that a lack of distinction might lead to the conclusion of "nothing or rather 0," you are raising a critical point about identity and existence:

Nothing and 0: In many philosophical and mathematical discussions, "0" can represent the absence of quantity or a placeholder for a null state. If "one everything" lacks distinguishable qualities or boundaries, it could theoretically be seen as indistinguishable from "nothing" or "0" because we cannot identify it as having any unique attributes—it does not contrast with anything.

4. Philosophical Perspectives

Here are some philosophical perspectives that relate to your proposition:

Monism: This view suggests that everything is fundamentally one and that apparent distinctions are illusory. Under monism, the idea of "one everything" is quite fitting; however, monists might argue that this unity doesn't necessarily mean it equates to "nothing" but rather indicates a holistic synthesis of existence.

Buddhism: In some Buddhist philosophies, the concept of "emptiness" (śūnyatā) teaches that all things lack inherent existence or essence. This does not mean they do not exist but that their existence is relational, contextual, and dependent on other factors.

Paradoxes of Identity: Considerations in identity theory might argue that if something cannot be distinguished, it raises questions about its existence or identity. This has implications in metaphysics, especially concerning universal vs. particular entities.

5. Conclusion

Thus, your assertion that an "everything" without distinctions could lead to the conclusion of it being "nothing" or "0" is quite thought-provoking. It challenges the very foundations of identity and existence as we understand them.

While "one everything" suggests a totality, the absence of distinguishable features (comparison) could imply an indistinguishable state, leading us to grapple with the paradox of existence versus non-existence.


In simpler terms your framework results in a paradox.
False.

Your question was constructed to produce a desired result.

The distinction is not existence and nonexistence (nothing) because nonexistence conceptually exists making it part of existence.

The distinction is whole and part, the whole or entirety of existence as differentiated from part of existence or a part of existence.

As previously expressed existence just is. Existence does not require comparison or justification. Existence is in and of itself.

Existence just is. Issues of distinction, comparison and justification are complexities encountered by conscious beings. Even A.I. hints at this:
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:44 pm…leading us to grapple with the paradox of existence versus non-existence.
This was also expressed earlier in discussion:
daniel j lavender wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:12 am…Consciousness, thought is what actually creates this abstraction of nothingness. Without consciousness nonexistence is not a worry. Without thought nonexistence is not a concern.

A.I. states “totality lacks parts”. That is incorrect.

By definition totality involves parts:

Totality (noun)
1 : an aggregate amount : SUM, WHOLE
2 a : the quality or state of being total : WHOLENESS
(Totality. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/totality)

Aggregate (adjective)
: formed by the collection of units or particles into a body, mass, or amount : COLLECTIVE
(Aggregate. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aggregate)

Whole (adjective)
2 : having all its proper parts or components : COMPLETE, UNMODIFIED
(Whole. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whole)

Whole (noun)
1 : a complete amount or sum : a number, aggregate, or totality lacking no part, member, or element
(Whole. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whole)

Total (adjective)
1 : comprising or constituting a whole : ENTIRE
(Total. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/total)

Entire (adjective)
1 : having no element or part left out : WHOLE
(Entire. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entire)


The terms which comprise the basis of A.I.’s argument are ill-defined. Thus affecting its conclusion.

Further the application claims your assertion is “thought-provoking”, not necessarily accurate. A.I. continues by stating “it challenges the very foundations of identity and existence as we understand them”, implying your assertion actually deviates from accepted understanding.

It seems A.I. is used and thought of as some unbiased, neutral determinant in such exchanges. But A.I. is biased and swayed merely by terms selected during initial stages of interaction with the application, as illustrated in discussion here. User input influences A.I. results.

The presented argument utilizes ill-defined terms which extend from a user-biased inquiry.

If any paradox has been identified it is within your own premise.

Everything is all things, not no thing.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

daniel j lavender wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2024 3:42 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:44 pmIf existence is infinite, not finite, than it is not a thing.
Existence is infinite and finite. The unlimitedness of existence is not limited to unlimitedness, existence also concerns limitation:
daniel j lavender wrote: Thu Jul 20, 2023 1:28 amExistence is infinite. Parts of existence, particular things are finite. Things are limited to limitedness.

However existence is infinite, existence is unlimited. This unlimitedness includes the limitedness of things.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:44 pmQuestion posed to DeepAI:

If there is only one everything and this everything has no comparison to allow it to be a distinct 1 does it thus necessitate it as nothing or rather 0?

Answer:

Your question dives into deep philosophical territory concerning the nature of existence, identity, and the implications of singularity. Let’s break it down step by step.
1. Understanding "One Everything"

When you refer to "one everything," you're positing a concept of totality—a singular, unified existence that encompasses all that is. This totality lacks parts, components, or distinctions that would allow it to be understood as a separate entity or as having unique characteristics.
2. Distinctions and Comparison

You point to the notion that this "everything" has “no comparison” to allow it to be distinct:

Comparison: For something to be perceived as a distinct entity (like "1"), there must be a framework of differentiation. We typically perceive things in relation to others—light exists because there's darkness, hot is understood in relation to cold, etc. Without distinctions, it becomes challenging to assert that something is "one" because the concept of "one" relies on identifying it against "other" or "more."

3. Implications: Necessitating "Nothing" or "0"

When you suggest that a lack of distinction might lead to the conclusion of "nothing or rather 0," you are raising a critical point about identity and existence:

Nothing and 0: In many philosophical and mathematical discussions, "0" can represent the absence of quantity or a placeholder for a null state. If "one everything" lacks distinguishable qualities or boundaries, it could theoretically be seen as indistinguishable from "nothing" or "0" because we cannot identify it as having any unique attributes—it does not contrast with anything.

4. Philosophical Perspectives

Here are some philosophical perspectives that relate to your proposition:

Monism: This view suggests that everything is fundamentally one and that apparent distinctions are illusory. Under monism, the idea of "one everything" is quite fitting; however, monists might argue that this unity doesn't necessarily mean it equates to "nothing" but rather indicates a holistic synthesis of existence.

Buddhism: In some Buddhist philosophies, the concept of "emptiness" (śūnyatā) teaches that all things lack inherent existence or essence. This does not mean they do not exist but that their existence is relational, contextual, and dependent on other factors.

Paradoxes of Identity: Considerations in identity theory might argue that if something cannot be distinguished, it raises questions about its existence or identity. This has implications in metaphysics, especially concerning universal vs. particular entities.

5. Conclusion

Thus, your assertion that an "everything" without distinctions could lead to the conclusion of it being "nothing" or "0" is quite thought-provoking. It challenges the very foundations of identity and existence as we understand them.

While "one everything" suggests a totality, the absence of distinguishable features (comparison) could imply an indistinguishable state, leading us to grapple with the paradox of existence versus non-existence.


In simpler terms your framework results in a paradox.
False.

Your question was constructed to produce a desired result.

The distinction is not existence and nonexistence (nothing) because nonexistence conceptually exists making it part of existence.

The distinction is whole and part, the whole or entirety of existence as differentiated from part of existence or a part of existence.

As previously expressed existence just is. Existence does not require comparison or justification. Existence is in and of itself.

Existence just is. Issues of distinction, comparison and justification are complexities encountered by conscious beings. Even A.I. hints at this:
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:44 pm…leading us to grapple with the paradox of existence versus non-existence.
This was also expressed earlier in discussion:
daniel j lavender wrote: Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:12 am…Consciousness, thought is what actually creates this abstraction of nothingness. Without consciousness nonexistence is not a worry. Without thought nonexistence is not a concern.

A.I. states “totality lacks parts”. That is incorrect.

By definition totality involves parts:

Totality (noun)
1 : an aggregate amount : SUM, WHOLE
2 a : the quality or state of being total : WHOLENESS
(Totality. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/totality)

Aggregate (adjective)
: formed by the collection of units or particles into a body, mass, or amount : COLLECTIVE
(Aggregate. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aggregate)

Whole (adjective)
2 : having all its proper parts or components : COMPLETE, UNMODIFIED
(Whole. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whole)

Whole (noun)
1 : a complete amount or sum : a number, aggregate, or totality lacking no part, member, or element
(Whole. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whole)

Total (adjective)
1 : comprising or constituting a whole : ENTIRE
(Total. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/total)

Entire (adjective)
1 : having no element or part left out : WHOLE
(Entire. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entire)


The terms which comprise the basis of A.I.’s argument are ill-defined. Thus affecting its conclusion.

Further the application claims your assertion is “thought-provoking”, not necessarily accurate. A.I. continues by stating “it challenges the very foundations of identity and existence as we understand them”, implying your assertion actually deviates from accepted understanding.

It seems A.I. is used and thought of as some unbiased, neutral determinant in such exchanges. But A.I. is biased and swayed merely by terms selected during initial stages of interaction with the application, as illustrated in discussion here. User input influences A.I. results.

The presented argument utilizes ill-defined terms which extend from a user-biased inquiry.

If any paradox has been identified it is within your own premise.

Everything is all things, not no thing.
Given existence is infinite and finite, as you just claimed, this results in a paradox where potentially anything could occur in which case my argument, as an aspect of existence, is correct. Basically your stance is a paradox. In justifying yourself you are justifying me which negates you and we end in a loop.

As to the totality, I will say again: There is no comparison otherwise if there was a comparison it would not be a thing as things require distinction through comparison, without comparison the totality (i.e. "existence") is not a thing...it is nothing. You defining everything under the word "existence" results in a meaningless premise.

Basically what I am saying is your argument is a rhetorical game of defining this and that relation and this ends in paradox.
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

Post by daniel j lavender »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 7:46 pmGiven existence is infinite and finite, as you just claimed, this results in a paradox where potentially anything could occur in which case my argument, as an aspect of existence, is correct. Basically your stance is a paradox.
Paradoxes are not always fallacious or false.

As defined:

Paradox (noun)
2 a : a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true
(Paradox. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paradox)

As expressed existence is infinite and finite. The unlimitedness of existence is not limited to unlimitedness. Review the Existence Both Part And Whole section beneath Additional Notes of the original essay.

Existence is finite. An orange is [part of] existence. An orange is finite, it’s limited. The orange is limited to the orange. However existence is also unlimited, existence is infinite. Existence is the orange, and the tree, and the grove, and the farm, and the town, and the nation, and the planet and so on.

The alleged paradox is congruent. The statements true.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 7:46 pm…potentially anything could occur in which case my argument, as an aspect of existence, is correct.
All things are, yes. But all things are not necessarily correct. Not all aspects of existence are correct simply because they are aspects of existence. All claims are not correct, for example, yet they are still aspects of existence.

As stated above, in a certain sense your claim is correct as paradoxes can exist while remaining congruent. However you seem to claim that existence cannot be both infinite and finite. That is false and explained more thoroughly in the original text.

And, as noted above, the claim may be incorrect but it is still an aspect of existence.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 7:46 pmYou defining everything under the word "existence" results in a meaningless premise. Basically what I am saying is your argument is a rhetorical game of defining this and that relation and this ends in paradox.
Existence is all. All is existence. It is not simply rhetoric or strategic sleight of argumentation. It is what is.
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

daniel j lavender wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 5:04 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 7:46 pmGiven existence is infinite and finite, as you just claimed, this results in a paradox where potentially anything could occur in which case my argument, as an aspect of existence, is correct. Basically your stance is a paradox.
Paradoxes are not always fallacious or false.

As defined:

Paradox (noun)
2 a : a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true
(Paradox. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paradox)

As expressed existence is infinite and finite. The unlimitedness of existence is not limited to unlimitedness. Review the Existence Both Part And Whole section beneath Additional Notes of the original essay.

Existence is finite. An orange is [part of] existence. An orange is finite, it’s limited. The orange is limited to the orange. However existence is also unlimited, existence is infinite. Existence is the orange, and the tree, and the grove, and the farm, and the town, and the nation, and the planet and so on.

The alleged paradox is congruent. The statements true.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 7:46 pm…potentially anything could occur in which case my argument, as an aspect of existence, is correct.
All things are, yes. But all things are not necessarily correct. Not all aspects of existence are correct simply because they are aspects of existence. All claims are not correct, for example, yet they are still aspects of existence.

As stated above, in a certain sense your claim is correct as paradoxes can exist while remaining congruent. However you seem to claim that existence cannot be both infinite and finite. That is false and explained more thoroughly in the original text.

And, as noted above, the claim may be incorrect but it is still an aspect of existence.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 7:46 pmYou defining everything under the word "existence" results in a meaningless premise. Basically what I am saying is your argument is a rhetorical game of defining this and that relation and this ends in paradox.
Existence is all. All is existence. It is not simply rhetoric or strategic sleight of argumentation. It is what is.
This debate is going to go on for a relatively long time so I wish you the best as I play devil's advocate out of respect for your intellectual competence, which is quite rare. Your arguments are well articulated, again a rarity, but articulation of truth is not enough unfortunately as conceptualization has its limits. So with this in mind:

Paradoxes are a means of transformation of awareness and as such result in an argument not having a fixed conclusion other than the existence of a continuum of paradoxes. "Existence is infinite" is not a fixed conclusion as you appear to claim it is.


Particular and general necessitate a state of separation for a comparison to occur by which they be conceptualized as distinct. It is this seperation that necessitates elements of contradiction in your stance with a secondary default notion that existence contains contradiction further necessitated by the existence of contradiction. Under these terms my stance is correct as it is contradictory to yours and is correct by occurence alone.

Correctness may occur in degrees but the greater or lesser notion of truth is relativistic according to a chosen standard and this standard is subjective, thus a measurement game occurs.

"All" is a meaningless term as it is without comparison when it's true meaning is implied or inferred. The premises you use and the arguments that circle them are equivalent to an empty loop, the loop is the argument and the center is the premise.

The infinite nature of existence results in an essence of nothing for existence equivocates all things.
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

Post by Belinda »

Ontic existence is the same as ontic being. It's impossible to be unless the being is subjective. For instance a lifeless substance or entity can't be/exist until and unless it's experienced by a subject of experience.

Therefore if by 'infinite' is meant no finality it's not true that existence is infinite, unless the following applies:
Infinity applies and can apply only to experience sans the experiencing self ; all else is finite.
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

Post by daniel j lavender »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 2:39 amThis debate is going to go on for a relatively long time so I wish you the best as I play devil's advocate…
Devil's Advocate
2 : a person who champions the less accepted cause for the sake of argument
(Devil's advocate. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... 20advocate)

“Playing devil's advocate means to argue or present the opinions of the opposite side even though the person doesn't agree with the opinion they are presenting. In order for someone to be playing devil's advocate, they must be arguing or presenting a position that is the opposite of what they actually believe.” Study.com
https://study.com/learn/lesson/devils-advocate.html


In other words you actually don’t subscribe to the position you present but are simply arguing to argue?
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

Post by daniel j lavender »

Belinda wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 4:54 pmIt's impossible to be unless the being is subjective. For instance a lifeless substance or entity can't be/exist until and unless it's experienced by a subject of experience.
This denies the interactions of photons and electrons, all the elements and activities which occurred to allow living entities and their environment. Things are and were present during the development of lifeforms and other systems. By your own contention consciousness confirms this if only retrospectively.

However the contention itself somewhat eludes the premise.

Existence is eternal. Existence being eternal there would be no beginning or starting point. Things could be at any level of development at any given time. This would indicate neither conscious entities nor nonconscious elements actually precede each other. They just are. Existence just is. Time and sequence issues are complexities concerning conscious beings as expressed previously:
daniel j lavender wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:16 amPerhaps the idea of being eternal, of eternity is emphasized too much. The idea itself isn’t quite as significant as it may seem. The idea is concerned with time, with duration. As expressed in the original text existence just is. Existence, being, generally speaking, transcends what we perceive as time. Existence just is. All that is, is. Time is a construct. A quality associated with particulars or particular things and often confounded with existence or being in its general sense.

All that is simply is. Simply being. Being. The fact that life is, that knowledge is an expression of existence is also a reflection and acknowledgement of its timelessness. Existence transcends measure, existence transcends time. Existence transcends number, existence transcends word. Existence just is.

Further the original text defines existence, including things, as that which is interacted with, at least in part. Photons, electrons, protons, etcetera, all interact substantiating them as things, as existence. By definition. Review the Significance of Perception section beneath Additional Notes.

It’s common and understandable to approach things from a conscious or observer-biased perspective. We are conscious beings after all. However the basis is not consciousness or observation. The basis is existence.
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

Post by Age »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:44 pm
daniel j lavender wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 1:18 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2024 3:49 pm"All things" is a distinction. "Existence" is a distinction. "All things exist" is a distinction. In other words any use of words is a distinction…
“All things” is also a phrase. But in that sense a phrase, a thing included as part of all things.

A phrase is a phrase. A thing. A distinction is a distinction. A thing.

All things are still all things, including such a phrase and such a distinction.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2024 3:49 pmIf existence itself is the only true thing as all things, and a thing requires comparison for it to stand apart so as to have the distinction necessary for it to be a thing…
As stated earlier you are attempting to present all things as only a thing. That is fallacious. All things are all things. You begin with a fallacious premise therefore everything that follows is also fallacious.

Existence requires no comparison to stand apart. That is your claim.

Existence is all. Existence requires no comparison to stand apart for it stands on its own; there is no other to stand apart from.

Existence requires no comparison. Existence just is.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2024 8:09 pm…while you gained a deeper insight into existence and infinity…
The term infinity carries certain connotations relegating its use in relation to the philosophy. Infinite is the preferred term.

Existence is the subject matter, the focus. The term infinite is simply a descriptor.

Infinity is a noun, infinite an adjective. The term infinity often involves flimsy notions and other baggage thus infinite is the preferred term.

Infinite is defined as unlimited or unrestricted. Existence, being unlimited, is not limited to the whole or limited to a thing. Existence is a thing, and every other thing, each thing and all things as the whole. Review the Existence Both Part And Whole section of the original essay.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2024 8:09 pm…while you gained a deeper insight into existence and infinity you might want to gain a deeper understanding of the opposite, the void, and in doing so gain a contrast through which you can merge into a more in depth conclusion, if a conclusion can be had.
The opposite of infinite is finite, not void.

There is not much to understand about void, assuming void is another term for nonexistence, as it does not actually exist beyond the term and concept. Anything understood, anything not understood concerns some thing or some things, not nothingness or nonexistence.

There is no added depth with void, with nonexistence because it does not exist to add any.

Existence is infinite. The depth is unfathomable.
If existence is infinite, not finite, than it is not a thing.
How could some thing, like existence, itself, not be a thing, under any circumstances like, for example, whether it was finite or infinite?

Obviously if 'it' is a thing, which 'it' obviously is, then 'it' is a thing, no matter for how long 'it' is around for.

By the way, Existence, Itself, is infinite, and eternal, just like Life, Itself, and the Universe, Itself, are infinite, and eternal. Which are each also Things, let 'us' NOT forget.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:44 pm Question posed to DeepAI:

If there is only one everything and this everything has no comparison to allow it to be a distinct 1 does it thus necessitate it as nothing or rather 0?

Answer:

Your question dives into deep philosophical territory concerning the nature of existence, identity, and the implications of singularity. Let’s break it down step by step.
1. Understanding "One Everything"

When you refer to "one everything," you're positing a concept of totality—a singular, unified existence that encompasses all that is. This totality lacks parts, components, or distinctions that would allow it to be understood as a separate entity or as having unique characteristics.
2. Distinctions and Comparison

You point to the notion that this "everything" has “no comparison” to allow it to be distinct:

Comparison: For something to be perceived as a distinct entity (like "1"), there must be a framework of differentiation. We typically perceive things in relation to others—light exists because there's darkness, hot is understood in relation to cold, etc. Without distinctions, it becomes challenging to assert that something is "one" because the concept of "one" relies on identifying it against "other" or "more."

3. Implications: Necessitating "Nothing" or "0"

When you suggest that a lack of distinction might lead to the conclusion of "nothing or rather 0," you are raising a critical point about identity and existence:

Nothing and 0: In many philosophical and mathematical discussions, "0" can represent the absence of quantity or a placeholder for a null state. If "one everything" lacks distinguishable qualities or boundaries, it could theoretically be seen as indistinguishable from "nothing" or "0" because we cannot identify it as having any unique attributes—it does not contrast with anything.

4. Philosophical Perspectives

Here are some philosophical perspectives that relate to your proposition:

Monism: This view suggests that everything is fundamentally one and that apparent distinctions are illusory. Under monism, the idea of "one everything" is quite fitting; however, monists might argue that this unity doesn't necessarily mean it equates to "nothing" but rather indicates a holistic synthesis of existence.

Buddhism: In some Buddhist philosophies, the concept of "emptiness" (śūnyatā) teaches that all things lack inherent existence or essence. This does not mean they do not exist but that their existence is relational, contextual, and dependent on other factors.

Paradoxes of Identity: Considerations in identity theory might argue that if something cannot be distinguished, it raises questions about its existence or identity. This has implications in metaphysics, especially concerning universal vs. particular entities.

5. Conclusion

Thus, your assertion that an "everything" without distinctions could lead to the conclusion of it being "nothing" or "0" is quite thought-provoking. It challenges the very foundations of identity and existence as we understand them.

While "one everything" suggests a totality, the absence of distinguishable features (comparison) could imply an indistinguishable state, leading us to grapple with the paradox of existence versus non-existence.





In simpler terms your framework results in a paradox.
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

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daniel j lavender wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:06 am
Belinda wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 4:54 pmIt's impossible to be unless the being is subjective. For instance a lifeless substance or entity can't be/exist until and unless it's experienced by a subject of experience.
This denies the interactions of photons and electrons, all the elements and activities which occurred to allow living entities and their environment. Things are and were present during the development of lifeforms and other systems. By your own contention consciousness confirms this if only retrospectively.

However the contention itself somewhat eludes the premise.

Existence is eternal. Existence being eternal there would be no beginning or starting point. Things could be at any level of development at any given time. This would indicate neither conscious entities nor nonconscious elements actually precede each other. They just are. Existence just is. Time and sequence issues are complexities concerning conscious beings as expressed previously:
daniel j lavender wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:16 amPerhaps the idea of being eternal, of eternity is emphasized too much. The idea itself isn’t quite as significant as it may seem. The idea is concerned with time, with duration. As expressed in the original text existence just is. Existence, being, generally speaking, transcends what we perceive as time. Existence just is. All that is, is. Time is a construct. A quality associated with particulars or particular things and often confounded with existence or being in its general sense.

All that is simply is. Simply being. Being. The fact that life is, that knowledge is an expression of existence is also a reflection and acknowledgement of its timelessness. Existence transcends measure, existence transcends time. Existence transcends number, existence transcends word. Existence just is.

Further the original text defines existence, including things, as that which is interacted with, at least in part. Photons, electrons, protons, etcetera, all interact substantiating them as things, as existence. By definition. Review the Significance of Perception section beneath Additional Notes.

It’s common and understandable to approach things from a conscious or observer-biased perspective. We are conscious beings after all. However the basis is not consciousness or observation. The basis is existence.
To elaborate:

There is no actual beginning point to establish sequence. Any beginning point would be arbitrary. Thus would any resulting sequence.

The stone comes before the wheel. In System B, anyway. System A formed prior to System B and generated wheels long before the stones of System B.

Do wheels come from stones, or stones from wheels? Are wheels simply reformed stones, or stones simply disintegrated wheels? With no actual beginning thus no delineated sequence either could come after the other leading to the neutral conclusion they just are.

What are stones? What are wheels? Matter, physical material. Existence. Essentially the same stuff. The same stuff need not come before or after itself. It is itself.
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

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daniel j lavender wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:06 am
Belinda wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 4:54 pmIt's impossible to be unless the being is subjective. For instance a lifeless substance or entity can't be/exist until and unless it's experienced by a subject of experience.
This denies the interactions of photons and electrons, all the elements and activities which occurred to allow living entities and their environment. Things are and were present during the development of lifeforms and other systems. By your own contention consciousness confirms this if only retrospectively.

However the contention itself somewhat eludes the premise.

Existence is eternal. Existence being eternal there would be no beginning or starting point. Things could be at any level of development at any given time. This would indicate neither conscious entities nor nonconscious elements actually precede each other. They just are. Existence just is. Time and sequence issues are complexities concerning conscious beings as expressed previously:
daniel j lavender wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:16 amPerhaps the idea of being eternal, of eternity is emphasized too much. The idea itself isn’t quite as significant as it may seem. The idea is concerned with time, with duration. As expressed in the original text existence just is. Existence, being, generally speaking, transcends what we perceive as time. Existence just is. All that is, is. Time is a construct. A quality associated with particulars or particular things and often confounded with existence or being in its general sense.

All that is simply is. Simply being. Being. The fact that life is, that knowledge is an expression of existence is also a reflection and acknowledgement of its timelessness. Existence transcends measure, existence transcends time. Existence transcends number, existence transcends word. Existence just is.

Further the original text defines existence, including things, as that which is interacted with, at least in part. Photons, electrons, protons, etcetera, all interact substantiating them as things, as existence. By definition. Review the Significance of Perception section beneath Additional Notes.

It’s common and understandable to approach things from a conscious or observer-biased perspective. We are conscious beings after all. However the basis is not consciousness or observation. The basis is existence.
But photons and electrons can't be explained or even described in the absence of an explainer.
Subatomic particles, planets, stars, chairs, wheels, and motor cars are nothing other than what they do. We, however , together with cats, dogs, and beetles, are beings for ourselves regardless of what we do.

Eternity is not the same idea as infinity. Eternity is spaceless, timeless, and forceless: whereas infinity has its alternative within time, space, and force, which is finity. Eternity contains time, space, and force, whereas infinity merely nullifies the possibility of finite time, space, and force.
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

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Belinda wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 1:25 pmBut photons and electrons can't be explained or even described in the absence of an explainer.
The interactions of photons, electrons, etcetera occurred else we wouldn’t be here in this way. Nor would we be able to explain these things in retrospect. The interactions occurred they simply lacked explanation at that point.

Interaction indicates existence, interaction indicates things by definition.

To explain or describe something is not to bring the thing into being. It is to explain or describe the thing. The thing was, the thing is else it could not be described.

Furthermore you are limiting parameters of existence. You are limiting the ideas of consciousness and observer. Consciousness could exceed our universe. Consciousness could be eternal; consciousness may have been aware of the referenced things as the events occurred thus, by your own premise, confirming them as things.

Belinda wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 1:25 pmSubatomic particles, planets, stars, chairs, wheels, and motor cars are nothing other than what they do.
And what do they do? They exist. They are. They are existence. As you state a thing is what it does. And it can do what it does without detailed explanation.

Explanation concerns us as conscious beings, it concerns issues of clarity and understanding, all complexities involving conscious entities. Existence simply is.

Belinda wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 1:25 pmEternity is not the same idea as infinity. Eternity is spaceless, timeless, and forceless: whereas infinity has its alternative within time, space, and force, which is finity. Eternity contains time, space, and force, whereas infinity merely nullifies the possibility of finite time, space, and force.
The terms are defined in the original text:
daniel j lavender wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 5:44 pm Infinite (adj.): Immeasurable; vast; unlimited or unrestricted.

Eternity (n.): Synonymous with existence; that which is not limited by duration.
They are further explained here:
daniel j lavender wrote: Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:38 pm…existence is infinite in extent and eternal in duration. Existence is both eternal and infinite.

Eternal, eternity concerns duration or time. Infinite concerns extent, range or spatial scope.
and here:
daniel j lavender wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2024 1:18 amThe term infinity carries certain connotations relegating its use in relation to the philosophy. Infinite is the preferred term.

Existence is the subject matter, the focus. The term infinite is simply a descriptor.

Infinity is a noun, infinite an adjective. The term infinity often involves flimsy notions and other baggage thus infinite is the preferred term.

Infinite is defined as unlimited or unrestricted. Existence, being unlimited, is not limited to the whole or limited to a thing. Existence is a thing, and every other thing, each thing and all things as the whole.

The terms do not deviate from accepted definitions:

Infinite (adjective)
1. Having no boundaries or limits; impossible to measure or calculate
(American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company https://www.thefreedictionary.com/infinite)

Infinite (adjective)
3 : subject to no limitation or external determination
(Infinite. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infinite)

Eternity (noun)
1. Time without beginning or end; infinite time
(American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company https://www.thefreedictionary.com/eternity)

Eternity (noun)
1 : the quality or state of being eternal
2 : infinite time
(Eternity. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eternity)

Eternal (adjective)
1 a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING
(Eternal. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eternal)
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

daniel j lavender wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 5:44 pm Abstract
Existence is infinite in extent and eternal in duration. Only nothing or nonexistence could actually limit existence; however, nothing or nonexistence is not and cannot be. Existence is infinite, existence is not limited as there is [not] nothing beyond existence to limit or restrict it.
.......
.......
Conclusions
The philosophy presented herein illustrates the commonality we all share. In fact the commonality all things share. As demonstrated throughout centuries past various religions, ideologies and ideologues have served largely to confound, to divide, to stoke the fires of conflict in the world rather than to unite. Optimistically philosophy, such as the one presented here, can serve to clarify, can serve to reconcile these ideas as well as improve understanding and community throughout the world and beyond.
"Existence Is Infinite" is meaningless.

Existence is not a predicate.
The statement 'X exists' is meaningless, there must be a predicate P that exists.
As such, what is valid is 'X exists as P'
where 'X' is the subject and 'P' is the predicate.
Thus for any claim 'X exists' it must be accompanied with a 'P' i.e. 'X exists as P'

To ensure 'X exists as P' is not false or illusory, that it is really real, it must be verifiable, justifiable, credible and objective to be real.
The gold standard of credibility and objectivity is the scientific Framework and System [FS] the rest of FS of knowledge are relative in degrees to the gold standard.
What can be more credible and objective than the scientific FS?

When we see an apple on the tree outside the window, we assert the truth,
'the apple [X] exists as a fruit [P]' as contingent upon the science-biology FSK as the most credible and objective claim.
To be more [not absolute but relatively] certain and objective, we can send the apple to a scientific laboratory for verification and justification contingent upon the conditions of the science-biology FSK; anyone can do the testing, verification and justification to get the same results.

When theists make the claim 'God exists' it cannot standalone but imply something like;
"God [subject] exists as an omnipotent {perfect, omni-whatever} entity [predicate]."
But unfortunately there is no way to test, verify and justify to confirm the realness of such a claim because it cannot be tested via the most credible and objective scientific FSK due to lack of direct empirical evidences [e.g. physical apple] available for testing and verification.
The empirical criteria carry a very high weightages in supporting the gold standard of credibility and objectivity of realness.
Because 'God [subject] exists as an omnipotent {perfect, omni-whatever} entity [predicate]' cannot verified empirically, its credibility is very low below the gold standard, thus, the subject God is illusory, i.e. not real.

The above are two examples at the extreme ends of reality, there are many other claims that are in between with varying degrees of credibility and objectivity.

Once we can establish the credibility and objectivity of 'X exists as P', the question of 'infinite' is not critical because infiniteness itself can be tested and verified as illusory albeit a useful fiction.
Surely the apple existing as a fruit cannot be infinite.
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

daniel j lavender wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 11:34 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 2:39 amThis debate is going to go on for a relatively long time so I wish you the best as I play devil's advocate…
Devil's Advocate
2 : a person who champions the less accepted cause for the sake of argument
(Devil's advocate. Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... 20advocate)

“Playing devil's advocate means to argue or present the opinions of the opposite side even though the person doesn't agree with the opinion they are presenting. In order for someone to be playing devil's advocate, they must be arguing or presenting a position that is the opposite of what they actually believe.” Study.com
https://study.com/learn/lesson/devils-advocate.html


In other words you actually don’t subscribe to the position you present but are simply arguing to argue?
I can see you as correct by seeing it as a half truth, a half truth is a truth...just not the whole truth. So yes I can play devil's advocate and still genuinely disagree with you simultaneously.

But you seem to ignore the remaining portion of my argument if that is what you are solely focused on, a rhetorical game that is.

So I will make my argument even more one pointed, to avoid dividing your attention:

Your premise is infinity.

It is a variable that can be applied infinitely by the context of its own nature. It can be applied to anything, even a finite line segment.

Because of its variability , due to an absence of limit, it can be seen as relatively formless and meaningless.

Tie in the second premise of "existence" and this term is empty as it equivocates to all things...even the occurence of contradiction you seek to ignore.

The infinite nature of existence results in infinite contradiction as contradiction is an occurence within the totality. With infinite contradiction anything can be justified, even infinite contradiction, as existence is justification by the nature of occurence alone.

Basically your terms are a rhetorical loop where extensive definition and argumentation hides the fact it is just loops within loops of terms.
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Re: Existence Is Infinite

Post by daniel j lavender »

daniel j lavender wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 8:01 am
daniel j lavender wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:06 am
Belinda wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 4:54 pmIt's impossible to be unless the being is subjective. For instance a lifeless substance or entity can't be/exist until and unless it's experienced by a subject of experience.
This denies the interactions of photons and electrons, all the elements and activities which occurred to allow living entities and their environment. Things are and were present during the development of lifeforms and other systems. By your own contention consciousness confirms this if only retrospectively.

However the contention itself somewhat eludes the premise.

Existence is eternal. Existence being eternal there would be no beginning or starting point. Things could be at any level of development at any given time. This would indicate neither conscious entities nor nonconscious elements actually precede each other. They just are. Existence just is. Time and sequence issues are complexities concerning conscious beings as expressed previously:
daniel j lavender wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:16 amPerhaps the idea of being eternal, of eternity is emphasized too much. The idea itself isn’t quite as significant as it may seem. The idea is concerned with time, with duration. As expressed in the original text existence just is. Existence, being, generally speaking, transcends what we perceive as time. Existence just is. All that is, is. Time is a construct. A quality associated with particulars or particular things and often confounded with existence or being in its general sense.

All that is simply is. Simply being. Being. The fact that life is, that knowledge is an expression of existence is also a reflection and acknowledgement of its timelessness. Existence transcends measure, existence transcends time. Existence transcends number, existence transcends word. Existence just is.

Further the original text defines existence, including things, as that which is interacted with, at least in part. Photons, electrons, protons, etcetera, all interact substantiating them as things, as existence. By definition. Review the Significance of Perception section beneath Additional Notes.

It’s common and understandable to approach things from a conscious or observer-biased perspective. We are conscious beings after all. However the basis is not consciousness or observation. The basis is existence.
To elaborate:

There is no actual beginning point to establish sequence. Any beginning point would be arbitrary. Thus would any resulting sequence.

The stone comes before the wheel. In System B, anyway. System A formed prior to System B and generated wheels long before the stones of System B.

Do wheels come from stones, or stones from wheels? Are wheels simply reformed stones, or stones simply disintegrated wheels? With no actual beginning thus no delineated sequence either could come after the other leading to the neutral conclusion they just are.

What are stones? What are wheels? Matter, physical material. Existence. Essentially the same stuff. The same stuff need not come before or after itself. It is itself.
To elaborate further:

It may be argued, and legitimately so, that stones come from interactions and arrangements of protons, electrons, photons, etcetera. Stones come from arrangements of subatomic particles. However disintegrate a stone sufficiently and what results? Subatomic particles. The same premise applies.

Wheels come from stones and stones come from wheels. Stones come from subatomic particles and subatomic particles come from stones. Any point of the process could be arbitrarily viewed as a beginning.
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