Moving Beyond the Illusion of Free Will in Governance

[BigMike]

Stop fighting the tide. Truth isn’t the enemy; it’s the way forward. You're ready for this—so take the leap. You'll find clarity, not chaos, waiting for you here.

How does that work you ideological imbecile?

The first thing your ridiculous attempt to change status quo will be CHAOS..anarchy.

Nobody wants what you want to peddle.

Atto, the irony of your comment is astounding. You claim my ideas will lead to chaos while clinging to a status quo that is chaos—inequality, environmental destruction, rampant misinformation, and political polarization. The system you defend is a patchwork of ideological contradictions, built on myths like free will, which are consistently undermined by science and reason.

If you have a better idea, let’s hear it. But dismissing an evidence-based approach to governance as "ridiculous" only highlights your unwillingness to engage with the reality that our current systems are failing. It’s not about peddling anything—it’s about facing truths you seem determined to ignore. Keep clinging to the crumbling structure if you want, but don’t mistake stagnation for stability.

[Age]

Anyway...

I'm still waitin' on someone to explain how this......leads to Mike's kinder, gentler world of peppermint-flavored unicorn farts.

But "mike's" kinder, gentler, and thus better world will never happen and occur while people like "henry quirk" REFUSE to stop fighting, and/or killing others, over its beliefs.

It is because of people like "henry quirk" WHY 'this world' remains a mean, cruel, and very ill and sick world.

Progress is slow, no doubt about it. Some people hold on tightly to deeply ingrained beliefs—beliefs that feel intuitive or comforting, even in the face of overwhelming evidence against them.

you holding on tightly to your own beliefs here is a case in point.

Others are quicker to see and respond to that evidence, recognizing that clinging to old ways of thinking only perpetuates the very problems we’re trying to solve.

The idea that our thoughts, desires, and actions are driven by causes doesn’t sit well with everyone. It challenges the ego, the illusion of being fully “in control,” and the moral frameworks built on free will. But that discomfort doesn’t make the evidence any less valid. Slowly—generation by generation, conversation by conversation—more people are starting to understand the deterministic nature of human behavior, and with that understanding comes a shift toward more compassionate, rational solutions.

What holds us back isn’t the lack of evidence—it’s the resistance to letting go of beliefs that have been part of our cultural and philosophical fabric for centuries. Progress may be slow, but it is happening. The question is how long it will take for enough people to see that accepting determinism doesn’t strip us of meaning or morality; it gives us the tools to address the causes of suffering more effectively and move toward a world that isn’t shaped by outdated myths, but by reality.

The cause of suffering is obviously 'determinism' so being able to address the cause of the 'present' suffering is only a possibility when one could change 'the past' 'determining factors'. However, when it became possible to change 'the past', happened only after it was FULLY UNDERSTOOD WHY 'the past' was, EXACTLY, 'the way' that it was, and that 'the past' is to NEVER be changed, at all. But, 'I' have probably lost 'you', here, right?

[Age]

Anyway...

I'm still waitin' on someone to explain how this......leads to Mike's kinder, gentler world of peppermint-flavored unicorn farts.

But "mike's" kinder, gentler, and thus better world will never happen and occur while people like "henry quirk" REFUSE to stop fighting, and/or killing others, over its beliefs.

It is because of people like "henry quirk" WHY 'this world' remains a mean, cruel, and very ill and sick world.

Age, this is why liberal education for all is so much needed . Liberal education teaches people not bare facts alone, but how to think, judge, and evaluate.

And, HOW to teach you people HOW to think, judge, and evaluate, properly and Correctly, just takes the 'self-discipline' to LEARN HOW to teach what is Right, in Life. And, HOW to LEARN what is Right, in Life, in order to be able to TEACH what is Right, in Life, is just through a process of being Honest, Open, and Wanting to change, for the better, in Life.

"People like henry quirk" are good people who find it hard to review and criticise their own entrenched beliefs.

I agree that people like "henry quirk", which is just ALL of you people, do find it hard and/or difficult to do things, which you have NOT YET LEARNED HOW to do. But, I disagree that ANY of you human beings are good, nor bad. All of you adult human beings do good, AND bad, things.

Liberal education teaches how to attain an open and a flexible mind governed by ordinary everyday human sympathy.

LOL The One and ONLY Mind is ALWAYS OPEN. and 'FLEXIBLE', you, human beings, however, CLOSE "yourselves" OFF because of your BELIEFS, held within those brains.

[BigMike]

But "mike's" kinder, gentler, and thus better world will never happen and occur while people like "henry quirk" REFUSE to stop fighting, and/or killing others, over its beliefs.

It is because of people like "henry quirk" WHY 'this world' remains a mean, cruel, and very ill and sick world.

Progress is slow, no doubt about it. Some people hold on tightly to deeply ingrained beliefs—beliefs that feel intuitive or comforting, even in the face of overwhelming evidence against them.

you holding on tightly to your own beliefs here is a case in point.

Others are quicker to see and respond to that evidence, recognizing that clinging to old ways of thinking only perpetuates the very problems we’re trying to solve.

The idea that our thoughts, desires, and actions are driven by causes doesn’t sit well with everyone. It challenges the ego, the illusion of being fully “in control,” and the moral frameworks built on free will. But that discomfort doesn’t make the evidence any less valid. Slowly—generation by generation, conversation by conversation—more people are starting to understand the deterministic nature of human behavior, and with that understanding comes a shift toward more compassionate, rational solutions.

What holds us back isn’t the lack of evidence—it’s the resistance to letting go of beliefs that have been part of our cultural and philosophical fabric for centuries. Progress may be slow, but it is happening. The question is how long it will take for enough people to see that accepting determinism doesn’t strip us of meaning or morality; it gives us the tools to address the causes of suffering more effectively and move toward a world that isn’t shaped by outdated myths, but by reality.

The cause of suffering is obviously 'determinism' so being able to address the cause of the 'present' suffering is only a possibility when one could change 'the past' 'determining factors'. However, when it became possible to change 'the past', happened only after it was FULLY UNDERSTOOD WHY 'the past' was, EXACTLY, 'the way' that it was, and that 'the past' is to NEVER be changed, at all. But, 'I' have probably lost 'you', here, right?

Age, the notion that "determinism is the cause of suffering" is as misguided as claiming that gravity is the cause of someone falling down the stairs. Determinism is not the enemy—it’s the framework within which everything operates. It’s not about wishing we could change the past, because the past is what it is, and it’s unchangeable. What matters is understanding the causes that led to the present and using that understanding to influence the future.

If you’ve "lost me," it’s because you’re proposing a paradox: addressing suffering by changing an unchangeable past. The deterministic view isn’t about undoing the past—it’s about identifying the causal chains that lead to suffering and addressing them where they can still have an effect: in the present and the future. That’s the entire point of embracing determinism—it empowers us to act meaningfully within reality, not to fantasize about undoing what’s already done.

The challenge isn’t determinism—it’s the resistance to seeing it for what it is and leveraging that understanding to make better choices now. Rejecting determinism isn’t just futile; it’s a refusal to engage with the actual mechanisms at play. Let’s focus on those, rather than entertaining illusions about rewriting history.

[Age]

Our actions, thoughts, and decisions are themselves causes within the deterministic framework.

… the trajectory includes our input.

There’s the contradiction and it is fatal to your thesis, I think. If something is within the system, it’s not an input. If it’s an input it must come in from outside.

There’s no contradiction here; the issue lies in your misunderstanding of the term input within a deterministic system. "Input" doesn’t imply something coming from outside the system—it refers to a cause within the system that influences subsequent events. In a deterministic framework, everything—including our thoughts, actions, and decisions—is part of the causal chain.

Including the speed, or lack there of, in LETTING GO of your BELIEFS, and ASSUMPTIONS.

The system is closed, but that doesn’t mean causal relationships stop existing.

By 'closed' you mean it is, still, an infinite and eternal system, obviously.

For example, when I make an argument and you respond, both my statement and your response are events within the deterministic system. My argument serves as an input (a cause) that influences your reaction, which in turn becomes another cause. This isn’t a contradiction—it’s causality playing out within the framework of determinism.

And, going by this 'logic', the response serves as an 'input' (a cause), which influences your reaction. Or, in other words, ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing could be called 'an input', obviously.

To say that something can’t be an input because it’s "inside" the system is to misunderstand how determinism works.

Or, it was done to just POINT OUT that there is NO thing 'outside' of the system, nor was there EVER ANY ACTUAL 'initial input', as, obviously, ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing can be classed as 'an input' (a cause).

Which, by the way, you human beings WILL come to ALSO REALIZE what the ACTUAL 'first cause' REALLY IS, EXACTLY.

Every cause is an input into what happens next, and every effect becomes a cause in turn.

Or, as I have called 'this One process', previously, the eternal constant-change of Creation through evolution. Which is just the continual re-action process, or what is called, 'Every action has a reaction, which is just creation, reacting, in action.

Now, this is 'an input', which is the cause or your re-action, which will Create 'this world', in which 'we' all live, right?

The trajectory isn’t something fixed in a vacuum—it unfolds through a cascade of causes and effects, including our actions, which are themselves determined by prior causes.

So no, this isn’t fatal to my thesis; it actually reinforces it. Determinism doesn’t require inputs to exist outside the system. Everything we do, say, or think is part of the system and influences its trajectory—that’s the point.

And, once you human beings get RID OF your 'belief system', then 'we' can start to begin to Create 'the world' in which 'we' ALL want to live in, within 'this system', correct?

Or, do you WANT to HOLD ONTO 'your BELIEF/S', here?

[BigMike]

There’s the contradiction and it is fatal to your thesis, I think. If something is within the system, it’s not an input. If it’s an input it must come in from outside.

There’s no contradiction here; the issue lies in your misunderstanding of the term input within a deterministic system. "Input" doesn’t imply something coming from outside the system—it refers to a cause within the system that influences subsequent events. In a deterministic framework, everything—including our thoughts, actions, and decisions—is part of the causal chain.

Including the speed, or lack there of, in LETTING GO of your BELIEFS, and ASSUMPTIONS.

The system is closed, but that doesn’t mean causal relationships stop existing.

By 'closed' you mean it is, still, an infinite and eternal system, obviously.

For example, when I make an argument and you respond, both my statement and your response are events within the deterministic system. My argument serves as an input (a cause) that influences your reaction, which in turn becomes another cause. This isn’t a contradiction—it’s causality playing out within the framework of determinism.

And, going by this 'logic', the response serves as an 'input' (a cause), which influences your reaction. Or, in other words, ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing could be called 'an input', obviously.

To say that something can’t be an input because it’s "inside" the system is to misunderstand how determinism works.

Or, it was done to just POINT OUT that there is NO thing 'outside' of the system, nor was there EVER ANY ACTUAL 'initial input', as, obviously, ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing can be classed as 'an input' (a cause).

Which, by the way, you human beings WILL come to ALSO REALIZE what the ACTUAL 'first cause' REALLY IS, EXACTLY.

Every cause is an input into what happens next, and every effect becomes a cause in turn.

Or, as I have called 'this One process', previously, the eternal constant-change of Creation through evolution. Which is just the continual re-action process, or what is called, 'Every action has a reaction, which is just creation, reacting, in action.

Now, this is 'an input', which is the cause or your re-action, which will Create 'this world', in which 'we' all live, right?

The trajectory isn’t something fixed in a vacuum—it unfolds through a cascade of causes and effects, including our actions, which are themselves determined by prior causes.

So no, this isn’t fatal to my thesis; it actually reinforces it. Determinism doesn’t require inputs to exist outside the system. Everything we do, say, or think is part of the system and influences its trajectory—that’s the point.

And, once you human beings get RID OF your 'belief system', then 'we' can start to begin to Create 'the world' in which 'we' ALL want to live in, within 'this system', correct?

Or, do you WANT to HOLD ONTO 'your BELIEF/S', here?

Age, you're proving the point beautifully: every response, every belief, and every action is part of the deterministic system. Whether you're holding onto beliefs or challenging them, it's all causally connected. Letting go of outdated ideas doesn’t happen by magic—it’s driven by new evidence and perspectives. That’s exactly how we create the world we all want to live in—by engaging, learning, and evolving within the system. Let’s move forward, not in circles.

[Age]

"Input" doesn’t imply something coming from outside the system

lol. Rewrite the dictionary why don’t you!

Determinism doesn’t require inputs to exist outside the system

I think you’d be better saying “ Determinism doesn’t require inputs” or even “Determinism doesn’t have inputs”.

Your smug laughter doesn’t hide the fact that you’re completely missing the point. This isn’t about “rewriting the dictionary”—it’s about understanding how causality works within a deterministic system.

But HOW causality works within the deterministic system, is in the EXACT SAME WAY as causality works within the free will system. How come you do NOT YET understand this Fact?

If you think the word input only applies to something external, then you’re stuck on semantics and ignoring substance.

Are you ABLE TO SEE that the word 'input' implies some thing being 'put in', as, literally, in 'in-put'?

And are you aware that have, literally, made the words 'free will' to mean some thing, which just could not exist?

Are you 'stuck on' semantics, or are you OPEN to CHANGING your semantics, here?

In a deterministic system, everything—every cause, every action, every thought—is part of the system and feeds into what happens next. The fact that the system is closed doesn’t mean causality stops existing or that no relationships occur within it. Saying "determinism doesn’t have inputs" is a meaningless strawman and a lazy dodge of the argument.

Again, ANY argument that is NOT a sound AND valid argument is NOT worth repeating. So, EVERY argument, which you have presented, which is NOT a sound AND valid argument is only worthy of being ignored, and/or just dodged, ANYWAY.

Have you presented a sound AND valid argument YET?

If yes, then WHEN and WHERE, EXACTLY?
If it’s an input it must come in from outside.

If you can’t engage with the concept beyond nitpicking a single word while ignoring the larger framework, then you’re not here to debate—you’re here to derail the discussion. Either address the point or admit you don’t understand it.

The point IS 'this is an input', which IS 'the cause' of YOUR REACTION. 'I', NOW, have FULL CONTROL OVER 'you'.

So, NOW that 'this point' has been ADDRESSED, and CLEARED UP, let 'Me' REMIND 'you' that what 'you' EXPECTING to HAPPEN and OCCUR 'I' DETERMINED, FOR 'you', and for which 'you' WILL NOW HAVE TO WAIT.

See, the REASON 'you' WILL HAVE TO WAIT is BECAUSE 'you' can NOT LET GO of 'your BELIEFS' UNTIL 'I' ALLOW 'you' TO.

[Age]

lol

“Lol”? That’s the best you’ve got? If your contribution to this discussion boils down to smug giggles and a single dismissive syllable, then you’ve already admitted you have nothing of substance to say. Either engage like an adult or sit this one out. I’m here for ideas, not playground taunts.

I WILL SUGGEST that going by HOW you 'adults' have been 'engaging', here, then 'sitting out' would be a FAR MORE 'mature' AND 'grown up' thing to do, exactly.

[Belinda]

But "mike's" kinder, gentler, and thus better world will never happen and occur while people like "henry quirk" REFUSE to stop fighting, and/or killing others, over its beliefs.

It is because of people like "henry quirk" WHY 'this world' remains a mean, cruel, and very ill and sick world.

Progress is slow, no doubt about it. Some people hold on tightly to deeply ingrained beliefs—beliefs that feel intuitive or comforting, even in the face of overwhelming evidence against them.

you holding on tightly to your own beliefs here is a case in point.

Others are quicker to see and respond to that evidence, recognizing that clinging to old ways of thinking only perpetuates the very problems we’re trying to solve.

The idea that our thoughts, desires, and actions are driven by causes doesn’t sit well with everyone. It challenges the ego, the illusion of being fully “in control,” and the moral frameworks built on free will. But that discomfort doesn’t make the evidence any less valid. Slowly—generation by generation, conversation by conversation—more people are starting to understand the deterministic nature of human behavior, and with that understanding comes a shift toward more compassionate, rational solutions.

What holds us back isn’t the lack of evidence—it’s the resistance to letting go of beliefs that have been part of our cultural and philosophical fabric for centuries. Progress may be slow, but it is happening. The question is how long it will take for enough people to see that accepting determinism doesn’t strip us of meaning or morality; it gives us the tools to address the causes of suffering more effectively and move toward a world that isn’t shaped by outdated myths, but by reality.

The cause of suffering is obviously 'determinism' so being able to address the cause of the 'present' suffering is only a possibility when one could change 'the past' 'determining factors'. However, when it became possible to change 'the past', happened only after it was FULLY UNDERSTOOD WHY 'the past' was, EXACTLY, 'the way' that it was, and that 'the past' is to NEVER be changed, at all. But, 'I' have probably lost 'you', here, right?

It is true, Age, that to understand crimes and their prevention we need first to understand the causes of crimes. And , as you say, much of the the causes of crimes is in the past . Do you agree human nature can change for the better?

[Belinda]

Age, Free Will is not caused and that's why it's called "free", because it is free of causation.

The only alternative to being free of causation is randomness.

[Age]

Stop fighting the tide. Truth isn’t the enemy; it’s the way forward. You're ready for this—so take the leap. You'll find clarity, not chaos, waiting for you here.

How does that work you ideological imbecile?

The first thing your ridiculous attempt to change status quo will be CHAOS..anarchy.

Nobody wants what you want to peddle.

Atto, the irony of your comment is astounding. You claim my ideas will lead to chaos while clinging to a status quo that is chaos—inequality, environmental destruction, rampant misinformation, and political polarization. The system you defend is a patchwork of ideological contradictions, built on myths like free will, which are consistently undermined by science and reason.

If you have a better idea, let’s hear it.

A better 'idea' has been put forward, to you, but you did NOT want to hear it.

But dismissing an evidence-based approach to governance as "ridiculous" only highlights your unwillingness to engage with the reality that our current systems are failing. It’s not about peddling anything—it’s about facing truths you seem determined to ignore.

you are OBVIOUSLY NOT YET AWARE that you are 'determined' to IGNORE the Truths being put forward to you, here.

Keep clinging to the crumbling structure if you want, but don’t mistake stagnation for stability.

Could a 'crumbling structure', here, be one that you are HOLDING, and CLINGING, ON TO?

[Age]

Progress is slow, no doubt about it. Some people hold on tightly to deeply ingrained beliefs—beliefs that feel intuitive or comforting, even in the face of overwhelming evidence against them.

you holding on tightly to your own beliefs here is a case in point.

Others are quicker to see and respond to that evidence, recognizing that clinging to old ways of thinking only perpetuates the very problems we’re trying to solve.

The idea that our thoughts, desires, and actions are driven by causes doesn’t sit well with everyone. It challenges the ego, the illusion of being fully “in control,” and the moral frameworks built on free will. But that discomfort doesn’t make the evidence any less valid. Slowly—generation by generation, conversation by conversation—more people are starting to understand the deterministic nature of human behavior, and with that understanding comes a shift toward more compassionate, rational solutions.

What holds us back isn’t the lack of evidence—it’s the resistance to letting go of beliefs that have been part of our cultural and philosophical fabric for centuries. Progress may be slow, but it is happening. The question is how long it will take for enough people to see that accepting determinism doesn’t strip us of meaning or morality; it gives us the tools to address the causes of suffering more effectively and move toward a world that isn’t shaped by outdated myths, but by reality.

The cause of suffering is obviously 'determinism' so being able to address the cause of the 'present' suffering is only a possibility when one could change 'the past' 'determining factors'. However, when it became possible to change 'the past', happened only after it was FULLY UNDERSTOOD WHY 'the past' was, EXACTLY, 'the way' that it was, and that 'the past' is to NEVER be changed, at all. But, 'I' have probably lost 'you', here, right?

Age, the notion that "determinism is the cause of suffering" is as misguided as claiming that gravity is the cause of someone falling down the stairs.

So, if 'gravity' is NOT 'the cause' of 'someone falling down stairs', then what IS, EXACTLY?

Also, and by the way, if 'determinism' is WHY absolutely EVERY thing HAPPENS and OCCURS, then WHY is 'suffering', supposedly, 'now' NOT 'caused' by 'determinism', itself?

Determinism is not the enemy—it’s the framework within which everything operates.

So, 'now' to "bigmike" anyway, EVERY thing that is 'bad' is NOT 'caused' by 'determinism', BUT, EVERY thing that is 'good' IS 'caused' by 'determinism'.

It’s not about wishing we could change the past, because the past is what it is, and it’s unchangeable. What matters is understanding the causes that led to the present and using that understanding to influence the future.

But, 'the causes' that 'led to the present', as 'I' KEEP INFORMING 'you' IS 'determinism', itself. 'Determinism' IS 'the cause' of EVERY thing, OBVIOUSLY. As 'you' KEEP TELLING 'us'. Or, MORE CORRECTLY, as 'you' WERE TELLING 'us'.

'Now' you CLAIM that 'determinism' only 'causes' some things, and NOT other things.

If you’ve "lost me," it’s because you’re proposing a paradox: addressing suffering by changing an unchangeable past.

Were you NOT YET AWARE that 'I' only 'caused' you to BECOME LOST, BECAUSE 'I' 'caused' 'you' TO PERCEIVE some thing that was NOT, here?

The deterministic view isn’t about undoing the past—it’s about identifying the causal chains that lead to suffering and addressing them where they can still have an effect: in the present and the future.

And, HOW FAR BACK are 'you' ABLE TO, literally, GO, here, EXACTLY?

LOL It is like you want to GO BACK TO just 'one input', and then STOP THERE. Which is ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS.

That’s the entire point of embracing determinism—it empowers us to act meaningfully within reality, not to fantasize about undoing what’s already done.

GREAT. Embrace determinism, and then SHOW 'us' HOW 'you' have been empowered to 'act meaningfully', EXACTLY.

The challenge isn’t determinism—it’s the resistance to seeing it for what it is and leveraging that understanding to make better choices now.

LOL So, ONCE AGAIN, you come BACK TO 'making better CHOICES'. Which, according to you CANNOT BE DONE, FREELY, ANYWAY.

Rejecting determinism isn’t just futile; it’s a refusal to engage with the actual mechanisms at play. Let’s focus on those, rather than entertaining illusions about rewriting history.

LOL REMEMBER that 'I' am the ONLY One, here, who has NEVER rejected 'determinism', NOR 'free will'.

REMEMBER that it is ONLY 'you' human beings, with BELIEFS, who have been and ARE 'rejecting' things, here.

Let 'us' NOT FORGET that it has ONLY been you posters, here, WITH BELIEFS, who have been ARGUING and FIGHTING AGAINST each other.

[Age]

There’s no contradiction here; the issue lies in your misunderstanding of the term input within a deterministic system. "Input" doesn’t imply something coming from outside the system—it refers to a cause within the system that influences subsequent events. In a deterministic framework, everything—including our thoughts, actions, and decisions—is part of the causal chain.

Including the speed, or lack there of, in LETTING GO of your BELIEFS, and ASSUMPTIONS.

The system is closed, but that doesn’t mean causal relationships stop existing.

By 'closed' you mean it is, still, an infinite and eternal system, obviously.

For example, when I make an argument and you respond, both my statement and your response are events within the deterministic system. My argument serves as an input (a cause) that influences your reaction, which in turn becomes another cause. This isn’t a contradiction—it’s causality playing out within the framework of determinism.

And, going by this 'logic', the response serves as an 'input' (a cause), which influences your reaction. Or, in other words, ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing could be called 'an input', obviously.

To say that something can’t be an input because it’s "inside" the system is to misunderstand how determinism works.

Or, it was done to just POINT OUT that there is NO thing 'outside' of the system, nor was there EVER ANY ACTUAL 'initial input', as, obviously, ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing can be classed as 'an input' (a cause).

Which, by the way, you human beings WILL come to ALSO REALIZE what the ACTUAL 'first cause' REALLY IS, EXACTLY.

Every cause is an input into what happens next, and every effect becomes a cause in turn.

Or, as I have called 'this One process', previously, the eternal constant-change of Creation through evolution. Which is just the continual re-action process, or what is called, 'Every action has a reaction, which is just creation, reacting, in action.

Now, this is 'an input', which is the cause or your re-action, which will Create 'this world', in which 'we' all live, right?

The trajectory isn’t something fixed in a vacuum—it unfolds through a cascade of causes and effects, including our actions, which are themselves determined by prior causes.

So no, this isn’t fatal to my thesis; it actually reinforces it. Determinism doesn’t require inputs to exist outside the system. Everything we do, say, or think is part of the system and influences its trajectory—that’s the point.

And, once you human beings get RID OF your 'belief system', then 'we' can start to begin to Create 'the world' in which 'we' ALL want to live in, within 'this system', correct?

Or, do you WANT to HOLD ONTO 'your BELIEF/S', here?

Age, you're proving the point beautifully: every response, every belief, and every action is part of the deterministic system. Whether you're holding onto beliefs or challenging them, it's all causally connected. Letting go of outdated ideas doesn’t happen by magic—it’s driven by new evidence and perspectives. That’s exactly how we create the world we all want to live in—by engaging, learning, and evolving within the system. Let’s move forward, not in circles.

GREAT IDEA.

So, WHEN are 'you' GOING TO LET GO OF, and GET RID OF, those BELIEFS, which ARE TURNING 'you' IN CIRCLES, and STOPPING and PREVENTING 'you' FROM MOVING FORWARD in FINDING and SEEING what the ACTUAL Truths ARE, here, EXACTLY?

[Age]

Progress is slow, no doubt about it. Some people hold on tightly to deeply ingrained beliefs—beliefs that feel intuitive or comforting, even in the face of overwhelming evidence against them.

you holding on tightly to your own beliefs here is a case in point.

Others are quicker to see and respond to that evidence, recognizing that clinging to old ways of thinking only perpetuates the very problems we’re trying to solve.

The idea that our thoughts, desires, and actions are driven by causes doesn’t sit well with everyone. It challenges the ego, the illusion of being fully “in control,” and the moral frameworks built on free will. But that discomfort doesn’t make the evidence any less valid. Slowly—generation by generation, conversation by conversation—more people are starting to understand the deterministic nature of human behavior, and with that understanding comes a shift toward more compassionate, rational solutions.

What holds us back isn’t the lack of evidence—it’s the resistance to letting go of beliefs that have been part of our cultural and philosophical fabric for centuries. Progress may be slow, but it is happening. The question is how long it will take for enough people to see that accepting determinism doesn’t strip us of meaning or morality; it gives us the tools to address the causes of suffering more effectively and move toward a world that isn’t shaped by outdated myths, but by reality.

The cause of suffering is obviously 'determinism' so being able to address the cause of the 'present' suffering is only a possibility when one could change 'the past' 'determining factors'. However, when it became possible to change 'the past', happened only after it was FULLY UNDERSTOOD WHY 'the past' was, EXACTLY, 'the way' that it was, and that 'the past' is to NEVER be changed, at all. But, 'I' have probably lost 'you', here, right?

It is true, Age, that to understand crimes and their prevention we need first to understand the causes of crimes. And , as you say, much of the the causes of crimes is in the past . Do you agree human nature can change for the better?

Human nature IS TO INQUIRE, TO EXPLORE, and TO LEARN. This is True Intelligence, or 'human nature'. Human beings are the ONLY ones WITH the ABILITY TO LEARN, UNDERSTAND, and REASON ABSOLUTELY ANY and EVERY thing. EVERY child is born TO DO, or DOING, these things. However because of the Truly AMAZING ABILITY of the brain to WITHHOLD knowledge and of the Mind to be ABLE TO learn, and reason, ANY and EVERY thing, human beings get 'older' LEARNING HOW TO HOLD ONTO BELIEFS, and PRESUMPTIONS, and worse of all LEARNING HOW TO 'REASON' 'that' what is False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and/or Incorrect.

Now, there is NEVER EVER an 'excuse' for a crime, or a Wrong doing, but there is ALWAYS a 'reason', 'a cause', and ONLY WHEN 'the cause' is found, then this ONLY WHEN 'the prevention' for 'that crime', or Wrong doing, can be found and put 'in place' so that 'that crime' or Wrong doing will NEVER happen NOR occur, AGAIN.

Also, CHANGE can NOT be stopped. ALL of Nature is IN a process of CONSTANT-CHANGE, with human nature CONTINUALLY LEARNING, LEARNING HOW TO CHANGE, for the better, is 'A purpose' for 'being human' or for being a 'human being'. LEARNING what IS Right, in Life, is 'our, human, purpose', for being HERE, because there is NO, 'real', purpose for LEARNING what is Wrong, in Life. Other than to LEARN what to PREVENT DOING.

Which is WHY human beings HAD TO BE LEFT to their OWN DEVICES, so AS TO MAKE MISTAKES. Because the BEST WAY human beings LEARN, in Life, of what TO DO, and what TO NOT DO, is FROM 'their MISTAKES'.

[BigMike]

Including the speed, or lack there of, in LETTING GO of your BELIEFS, and ASSUMPTIONS.


By 'closed' you mean it is, still, an infinite and eternal system, obviously.


And, going by this 'logic', the response serves as an 'input' (a cause), which influences your reaction. Or, in other words, ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing could be called 'an input', obviously.


Or, it was done to just POINT OUT that there is NO thing 'outside' of the system, nor was there EVER ANY ACTUAL 'initial input', as, obviously, ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing can be classed as 'an input' (a cause).

Which, by the way, you human beings WILL come to ALSO REALIZE what the ACTUAL 'first cause' REALLY IS, EXACTLY.


Or, as I have called 'this One process', previously, the eternal constant-change of Creation through evolution. Which is just the continual re-action process, or what is called, 'Every action has a reaction, which is just creation, reacting, in action.

Now, this is 'an input', which is the cause or your re-action, which will Create 'this world', in which 'we' all live, right?



And, once you human beings get RID OF your 'belief system', then 'we' can start to begin to Create 'the world' in which 'we' ALL want to live in, within 'this system', correct?

Or, do you WANT to HOLD ONTO 'your BELIEF/S', here?

Age, you're proving the point beautifully: every response, every belief, and every action is part of the deterministic system. Whether you're holding onto beliefs or challenging them, it's all causally connected. Letting go of outdated ideas doesn’t happen by magic—it’s driven by new evidence and perspectives. That’s exactly how we create the world we all want to live in—by engaging, learning, and evolving within the system. Let’s move forward, not in circles.

GREAT IDEA.

So, WHEN are 'you' GOING TO LET GO OF, and GET RID OF, those BELIEFS, which ARE TURNING 'you' IN CIRCLES, and STOPPING and PREVENTING 'you' FROM MOVING FORWARD in FINDING and SEEING what the ACTUAL Truths ARE, here, EXACTLY?

Age, let me know when clinging to incoherent ramblings becomes evidence-based reasoning. Until then, I’ll stick to science—a framework that actually builds rockets, cures diseases, and explains the universe. Your philosophical merry-go-round isn’t moving forward; it’s just spinning.