Moving Beyond the Illusion of Free Will in Governance

[BigMike]

There's no way Mike is serious with any of this. He's definitely doing research for a dystopian young adult novel in which a teenager journeys through a terrifying post-democracy neo-fascist moral wasteland before learning that she somehow is the special one that gets to topple the wizard behind the curtain.

Okay, let’s take a moment, because this right here is a prime example of how easy it is to dismiss challenging ideas by reducing them to caricature. And hey, I get it—talk of replacing democracy with something that acknowledges determinism can sound like the opening pitch for some grim dystopian screenplay. But let’s actually sit with the idea for a second before we throw it into the "teen dystopia" pile.

The point I’m raising isn’t about tearing down society or turning governance into some kind of technocratic nightmare. It’s about asking hard questions—questions democracy, as it currently functions, doesn’t want to face. If our decisions, our votes, our actions are shaped by forces we don’t control, how do we ensure governance that reflects those realities instead of clinging to the comforting illusion of free will? That’s the conversation.

Far from being dystopian, deterministic governance is about reducing harm, increasing fairness, and addressing the actual root causes of inequality, crime, and environmental collapse. It’s not about handing power to some wizard behind the curtain or stripping humanity of its agency. It’s about building systems that acknowledge how things really work—systems that use evidence, expertise, and data to create outcomes that serve everyone, not just the loudest voices or the wealthiest players.

So sure, you can picture the YA dystopia if you want. But in reality, the “post-democracy” I’m talking about isn’t a wasteland. It’s a system designed to solve problems rather than perpetuating them. If we’re going to push this off as fantasy, let’s at least acknowledge that the status quo isn’t exactly working wonders for us, either. Climate change, wealth disparity, rising political instability—these aren’t challenges we can fix with business as usual. Maybe the real dystopia is pretending otherwise.

[BigMike]

He might find himself “innovating” if that were the trajectory he happened to be on. He might even have the feeling that his actions served a conscious innovative purpose. But that feeling would be an illusion—the illusion of free will.

Exactly. The feeling of innovation or purpose might be an illusion, but the outcomes of those actions—determined by causal chains—are very real. The question isn’t whether free will exists but whether we can understand the forces driving those outcomes and design systems, like governance, that work with them instead of pretending they don’t exist.

[attofishpi]

Climate change, wealth disparity, rising political instability—these aren’t challenges we can fix with business as usual. Maybe the real dystopia is pretending otherwise.

Climate change <-- resolvable if we stop feeding coal to India & China and force them to nuclear
Wealth Disparity <-- it's brilliant. If you're clever you get lots of dosh. If you're stupid and lazy, ya get social security. What's the problem?
Political instability <-- that's key to democracy.

[FlashDangerpants]

Does anyone else remember that guy Vitruvian who was all over this forum for a few weeks a year or two ago? Absolutely convinced that his big idea was a total winner and he gave a list of all the impossible social problems that would be fixed by it.

In his case it was a technologically unfeasible notion of diverting 10% of world GDP to himself so that he could use it to drill giant tunnels through volcanoes and then pump seawater though those tunnels to generate superheated steam. He was going to fix global warming and end the pesky curse of socialism with that one.

He also sounded like a salesman every day, but never resembled a philosopher.


Or like this guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDOI0cq6GZM

[attofishpi]

Does anyone else remember that guy Vitruvian who was all over this forum for a few weeks a year or two ago? Absolutely convinced that his big idea was a total winner and he gave a list of all the impossible social problems that would be fixed by it.

In his case it was a technologically unfeasible notion of diverting 10% of world GDP to himself so that he could use it to drill giant tunnels through volcanoes and then pump seawater though those tunnels to generate superheated steam. He was going to fix global warming and end the pesky curse of socialism with that one.

Yes, he was hilarious. There was something about a large helium balloon that I had to point out, I can't remember what it was for but the guy had no idea about basic physics.

..I do hope this is not a snide way of comparing my statement to that idiot.

[FlashDangerpants]

..I do hope this is not a snide way of comparing my statement to that idiot.

WTF? No, it was about the bloke selling the big idea he thinks is the panacea to fix all our ills if only we surrender our humanity to him. Not the alcoholic schizo bedwetter.

[BigMike]

..I do hope this is not a snide way of comparing my statement to that idiot.

WTF? No, it was about the bloke selling the big idea he thinks is the panacea to fix all our ills if only we surrender our humanity to him. Not the alcoholic schizo bedwetter.

What "big idea" are you referring to?

[attofishpi]

..I do hope this is not a snide way of comparing my statement to that idiot.

WTF? No, it was about the bloke selling the big idea he thinks is the panacea to fix all our ills if only we surrender our humanity to him. Not the alcoholic schizo bedwetter.

Got an argument with this?

Climate change <-- resolvable if we stop feeding coal to India & China and force them to nuclear
Wealth Disparity <-- it's brilliant. If you're clever you get lots of dosh. If you're stupid and lazy, ya get social security. What's the problem?
Political instability <-- that's key to democracy.

PS.
I'm not an alcoholic, an alcoholic is someone that cannot go daily without booze, I often do (like now)
I am not a schizo, just used the system available to me to get what I wanted, loads of dosh.
If i am a bedwetter it's only because of the lucky lady that gets extremely sweaty with GOD induced multiple orgasms of pure sexual atto instilled ecstasy.

..what can I say, turns out GOD is no prude.

[FlashDangerpants]

..I do hope this is not a snide way of comparing my statement to that idiot.

WTF? No, it was about the bloke selling the big idea he thinks is the panacea to fix all our ills if only we surrender our humanity to him. Not the alcoholic schizo bedwetter.

What "big idea" are you referring to?

You serious? You're a salesman upselling from basic clockwork causality to the determinism diamond club for members only.

[FlashDangerpants]

If i am a bedwetter ...

I wasn't willing to hijack Mike's other thread to let it become about whether the guy who can say I am evil but cannot say Hitler is evil counts as proper nazi or just an ersatz knock-off. And I am not going to hijack this one to determine whether you collapse drunkenly into a puddle of your own piss every night because of your obvious alcohol dependency or not.

[attofishpi]

I wasn't willing to hijack Mike's other thread to let it become about whether the guy who can say I am evil but cannot say Hitler is evil counts as proper nazi or just an ersatz knock-off. And I am not going to hijack this one to determine whether you collapse drunkenly into a puddle of your own piss every night because of your obvious alcohol dependency or not.

You are the greatest fool I have ever spoken to upon this forum of "philosophy".

What are you to gain from reading all of those books on philosophy written by others, without an ounce of faith to gain actual wisdom.

(and you're extremely boring, i mean wot a witless wankstain)

[FlashDangerpants]

You are the greatest fool I have ever spoken to upon this forum of "philosophy".

Then I suggest you stop speaking to me because I have zero respect for you.

[attofishpi]

You are the greatest fool I have ever spoken to upon this forum of "philosophy".

Then I suggest you stop speaking to me because I have zero respect for you.

Then I suggest you fuck off to a forum for witless chumps.

[Impenitent]

democracy is failing because more non democrats voted

-Imp

[BigMike]

WTF? No, it was about the bloke selling the big idea he thinks is the panacea to fix all our ills if only we surrender our humanity to him. Not the alcoholic schizo bedwetter.

What "big idea" are you referring to?

You serious? You're a salesman upselling from basic clockwork causality to the determinism diamond club for members only.

Okay, let’s take a step back and address this, because I think we’re missing something fundamental here. This isn’t about selling anything, much less some exclusive “club” or ideology. It’s about recognizing the obvious: the systems we’ve relied on—democracy included—are falling short of solving the most pressing issues we face. Inequality. Climate change. Political instability. These aren’t problems we can fix by doubling down on outdated assumptions about human behavior.

The idea here isn’t to “surrender humanity.” It’s to embrace the tools we have—science, data, understanding—to build systems that actually reflect how the world works. If we know decisions are shaped by factors beyond individual control, shouldn’t our governance systems acknowledge that reality? Shouldn’t they aim to address root causes instead of just reacting to symptoms?

This isn’t an upsell. It’s an invitation to consider whether we can do better by confronting the truths we already know. And let’s be clear: ignoring these truths won’t protect humanity—it’ll just let the same failing systems continue unchecked.