Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

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godelian
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Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by godelian »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:31 am You condemned the West and implied in post #2 that Islam is the best.
I specifically criticized how the changes in modern western law facilitate the following hidden agenda:
Modern western law strongly privileges banksterism and the banksters.

The bank owns your house, your car, the money in your account, receives your salary before you do, and so on. There is a very noticeable pattern in all of that.

You are not allowed to store large amounts of savings in gold or even in cash in your house because law enforcement will confiscate it under civil forfeiture procedures unless you can prove that its origin is not criminal. You are no longer presumed innocent. Your gold or cash savings are deemed to come from crime, unless you prove otherwise, which you probably can't.

Then, I pointed out that the very fact that Islamic law refuses to change, is exactly what makes it immune to this problem. The banksters fail to change Islamic law to support their hidden agenda, exactly because it is fiendishly hard to change Islamic law.

Islamic law does not even need to be "the best" to defend against this problem. It just needs to be stubbornly immutable.

What you do, is to systematically misrepresent what other people say. As I have pointed out already, you are a born liar.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 15722
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Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

godelian wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 6:52 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 3:31 am You condemned the West and implied in post #2 that Islam is the best.
I specifically criticized how the changes in modern western law facilitate the following hidden agenda:
Modern western law strongly privileges banksterism and the banksters.

The bank owns your house, your car, the money in your account, receives your salary before you do, and so on. There is a very noticeable pattern in all of that.

You are not allowed to store large amounts of savings in gold or even in cash in your house because law enforcement will confiscate it under civil forfeiture procedures unless you can prove that its origin is not criminal. You are no longer presumed innocent. Your gold or cash savings are deemed to come from crime, unless you prove otherwise, which you probably can't.

Then, I pointed out that the very fact that Islamic law refuses to change, is exactly what makes it immune to this problem. The banksters fail to change Islamic law to support their hidden agenda, exactly because it is fiendishly hard to change Islamic law.

Islamic law does not even need to be "the best" to defend against this problem. It just needs to be stubbornly immutable.

What you do, is to systematically misrepresent what other people say. As I have pointed out already, you are a born liar.
If not 'best' then 'better than', but I have shown you it is inherently evil laden.

If you believe the words of your God, it stated 'Islam is the perfect religion' thus the best when you invoke the name of Islam.

On this day I have perfected for you your religion.
(Surah Al-Ma’ida, Quran 5:3)
godelian
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Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by godelian »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:59 am If not 'best' then 'better than', but I have shown you it is inherently evil laden.
A moral theory is a definition for what is good and what is evil. In terms of what other theory would such moral theory be evil? You are comparing two theories, one of which is implicit, undocumented, hidden, not mentioned, and so on. That is why your opinion is objectively nonsensical. For your opinion to make sense, you must mention what other moral theory is your benchmark for morality. You clearly don't.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:59 am On this day I have perfected for you your religion.
(Surah Al-Ma’ida, Quran 5:3)
It means that on that day the religion was finalized.
ChatGPT:

This verse is believed to have been revealed during the Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) final pilgrimage (Hajj) to Mecca, shortly before his passing.

It reminds believers to adhere to the principles and practices of Islam without alteration or innovation, as the religion has been perfected by divine decree.

This verse is often seen as a testament to the enduring and unchanging nature of Islam, as well as a reminder of the importance of preserving and practicing the faith as it was revealed.
ChatGPT is surprisingly good at "tafsir" (exegesis, commentary).

The verse means that Islamic law is immutable.

This is exactly what the banksters don't like about Islamic law because changing the law is what they need to do in order to continue the implementation of their hidden agenda: "You'll own nothing and you'll be happy".
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 15722
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

godelian wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 8:19 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:59 am If not 'best' then 'better than', but I have shown you it is inherently evil laden.
A moral theory is a definition for what is good and what is evil. In terms of what other theory would such moral theory be evil? You are comparing two theories, one of which is implicit, undocumented, hidden, not mentioned, and so on. That is why your opinion is objectively nonsensical. For your opinion to make sense, you must mention what other moral theory is your benchmark for morality. You clearly don't.
I have already argued my case.
I am not arguing for any specific moral model at present, but that all humans are "programmed" with an inherent moral function [DNA ] that is evolving positively in time.
I have already provided this evidence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bette ... Our_Nature
violence in the world has declined both in the long run and in the short run and suggests explanations as to why this has occurred.[1] The book uses data documenting declining violence across time and geography. This paints a picture of massive declines in the violence of all forms, from war, to improved treatment of children.
Another is the moral progress in term of Chattel slavery where it is banned in all sovereign nations. There are many other examples showing an evolving moral progress within human history.

The Islamic moral model which is evil-laden is immutable as such there is no room for improvements till eternity.

On that basis, the Islamic moral model cannot be the standard nor preferred one.
It is more effective to expedite the progress of the inherent function within humans.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:59 am On this day I have perfected for you your religion.
(Surah Al-Ma’ida, Quran 5:3)
It means that on that day the religion was finalized.
ChatGPT:

This verse is believed to have been revealed during the Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) final pilgrimage (Hajj) to Mecca, shortly before his passing.

It reminds believers to adhere to the principles and practices of Islam without alteration or innovation, as the religion has been perfected by divine decree.

This verse is often seen as a testament to the enduring and unchanging nature of Islam, as well as a reminder of the importance of preserving and practicing the faith as it was revealed.
ChatGPT is surprisingly good at "tafsir" (exegesis, commentary).

The verse means that Islamic law is immutable.

This is exactly what the banksters don't like about Islamic law because changing the law is what they need to do in order to continue the implementation of their hidden agenda: "You'll own nothing and you'll be happy".
Yes, Islam is claimed to be the final, perfected and no better can emerged thereafter but as demonstrated it is inherently evil; it posed a danger to humanity given the existence of a 10 percentile [150-200 million :shock: ] are people with strong evil propensities who would not hesitate to comply with A5:33 and other evil laden verses. [which is evident]
puto
Posts: 484
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:44 am

Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by puto »

Veritas Aequitas,
you TROLL do even read. Data dump is all you do. ACADEMIC FRUAD.
Atla
Posts: 9936
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by Atla »

puto wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2024 1:00 pm Veritas Aequitas,
...
You, again, are smarter than that.
Are you absolutely sure of that? :wink:
Belinda
Posts: 10548
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by Belinda »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 8:52 am
godelian wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 8:19 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:59 am If not 'best' then 'better than', but I have shown you it is inherently evil laden.
A moral theory is a definition for what is good and what is evil. In terms of what other theory would such moral theory be evil? You are comparing two theories, one of which is implicit, undocumented, hidden, not mentioned, and so on. That is why your opinion is objectively nonsensical. For your opinion to make sense, you must mention what other moral theory is your benchmark for morality. You clearly don't.
I have already argued my case.
I am not arguing for any specific moral model at present, but that all humans are "programmed" with an inherent moral function [DNA ] that is evolving positively in time.
I have already provided this evidence:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bette ... Our_Nature
violence in the world has declined both in the long run and in the short run and suggests explanations as to why this has occurred.[1] The book uses data documenting declining violence across time and geography. This paints a picture of massive declines in the violence of all forms, from war, to improved treatment of children.
Another is the moral progress in term of Chattel slavery where it is banned in all sovereign nations. There are many other examples showing an evolving moral progress within human history.

The Islamic moral model which is evil-laden is immutable as such there is no room for improvements till eternity.

On that basis, the Islamic moral model cannot be the standard nor preferred one.
It is more effective to expedite the progress of the inherent function within humans.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:59 am On this day I have perfected for you your religion.
(Surah Al-Ma’ida, Quran 5:3)
It means that on that day the religion was finalized.
ChatGPT:

This verse is believed to have been revealed during the Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) final pilgrimage (Hajj) to Mecca, shortly before his passing.

It reminds believers to adhere to the principles and practices of Islam without alteration or innovation, as the religion has been perfected by divine decree.

This verse is often seen as a testament to the enduring and unchanging nature of Islam, as well as a reminder of the importance of preserving and practicing the faith as it was revealed.
ChatGPT is surprisingly good at "tafsir" (exegesis, commentary).

The verse means that Islamic law is immutable.

This is exactly what the banksters don't like about Islamic law because changing the law is what they need to do in order to continue the implementation of their hidden agenda: "You'll own nothing and you'll be happy".
Yes, Islam is claimed to be the final, perfected and no better can emerged thereafter but as demonstrated it is inherently evil; it posed a danger to humanity given the existence of a 10 percentile [150-200 million :shock: ] are people with strong evil propensities who would not hesitate to comply with A5:33 and other evil laden verses. [which is evident]
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 7:59 am On this day I have perfected for you your religion.
(Surah Al-Ma’ida, Quran 5:3)
It means that on that day the religion was finalized.
It means your religion is perfected . It does not say your religion will no longer be up for discussion and review in the light of new challenges.

Throughout the first five Islamic centuries, the practice of ijtihad continued both theoretically and practically amongst Sunni Muslims. The initial dispute surrounding the exercise of ijtihad and the existence of mujtahids emerged in its nascent form around the beginning of the sixth/twelfth century.[6] By the 14th century, development of Islamic Fiqh (jurisprudence) prompted leading Sunni jurists to state that the main legal questions had been addressed and the scope of ijtihad was gradually restricted.[2] In the modern era, this gave rise to a perception amongst Orientalist scholars and sections of the Muslim public that the so-called "gate of ijtihad" was closed at the start of the classical era.[2][7] While recent scholarship established that the practice of Ijtihad had never ceased in Islamic history, the extent and mechanisms of legal change in the post-formative period remain a subject of debate.[8]
Therefore Islam, adapted to the challenges of this year, can still be the unifying force.
puto
Posts: 484
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:44 am

Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by puto »

Atla :D, you are correct, and sure is an adjective, lol. I would just try, and make this kid look stupid, but that would be hard, as whoever it is, data dumps. Information does not work that way, as it take time to learn the predicate of the perception. Reasoning, is fun but hard because you get the therefore, according to the rule. To inform a blind man, is hard to convey too in an abstracted way this kid is relative. Whoever it is, already knows how to reason and is grounded in their ignorance and learning. How do you teach an imbecilic person, you show them their failures. This person knows their failures and that is why they copy and paste. Then plays the skeptic in a troll way. By the way, the article about skeptics and trolls was amazingly interesting and well written in issue 165.
puto
Posts: 484
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:44 am

Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by puto »

Veritas Aequitas, what is a moral theory? Lol, you are copying and pasting, again. What does moral mean? What does theory mean? Show me, that is a skeptical saying. Implicit does not mean that. Opinions, lol, you know what an opinion is? First, you have to know what the subject is about, then have a therefore of the predicate. Argued your case? Lol you copy and paste, you do not even, let me help you out, a determined and libertarian arguments are an argument in philosophy. Your use of evident, is hilarious. Philosophy is built on giants, not copy and paste. Philosophy is not dead, as long as you keep doing it. Your problem is you do not know how to do philosophy. One of your problems is that you pick and choose what to post and respond. Do you not understand what you are reading? Is that why you use unacademic sites, or do you not know how to read? I am learning from your posts that you do not know much, and knowledge and information are two different terms. Your information is from other sources that is for sure. Lol, you are an idiot. Learn the term, then change.
Belinda
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by Belinda »

puto wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 12:17 pm Veritas Aequitas, what is a moral theory? Lol, you are copying and pasting, again. What does moral mean? What does theory mean? Show me, that is a skeptical saying. Implicit does not mean that. Opinions, lol, you know what an opinion is? First, you have to know what the subject is about, then have a therefore of the predicate. Argued your case? Lol you copy and paste, you do not even, let me help you out, a determined and libertarian arguments are an argument in philosophy. Your use of evident, is hilarious. Philosophy is built on giants, not copy and paste. Philosophy is not dead, as long as you keep doing it. Your problem is you do not know how to do philosophy. One of your problems is that you pick and choose what to post and respond. Do you not understand what you are reading? Is that why you use unacademic sites, or do you not know how to read? I am learning from your posts that you do not know much, and knowledge and information are two different terms. Your information is from other sources that is for sure. Lol, you are an idiot. Learn the term, then change.
I endorse Puto on the topic of "Philosophy is built on giants, not copy and paste."

I wonder if it would help to align the way we do philosophy with the way we read. I mean , reading can mean anything from early stages of reading such as learning the alphabet and easy phonetics right up to mental critique of the textual content alongside the mostly automatic action of reading.

To put it crudely, understanding is not what a parrot is doing when he talks.
godelian
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Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by godelian »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 8:52 am I am not arguing for any specific moral model at present, but that all humans are "programmed" with an inherent moral function [DNA ] that is evolving positively in time.
I have already provided this evidence:
The Quran endorses the view that humanity has been preprogrammed with its built-in morality:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitra

Fitra or fitrah (Arabic: فِطْرَة; ALA-LC: fiṭrah) is an Arabic word that means 'original disposition', 'natural constitution' or 'innate nature'.
The Quran states that humans were created in the most perfect form (95:4), and were endowed with a primordial nature (30:30).
There is, however, no written documentation available for humanity's native morality. Therefore, your claim that Islam would be at odds with humanity's native morality, is undocumented, unsubstantiated, and unjustified.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

godelian wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 9:24 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 8:52 am I am not arguing for any specific moral model at present, but that all humans are "programmed" with an inherent moral function [DNA ] that is evolving positively in time.
I have already provided this evidence:
The Quran endorses the view that humanity has been preprogrammed with its built-in morality:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitra

Fitra or fitrah (Arabic: فِطْرَة; ALA-LC: fiṭrah) is an Arabic word that means 'original disposition', 'natural constitution' or 'innate nature'.
The Quran states that humans were created in the most perfect form (95:4), and were endowed with a primordial nature (30:30).
There is, however, no written documentation available for humanity's native morality. Therefore, your claim that Islam would be at odds with humanity's native morality, is undocumented, unsubstantiated, and unjustified.
Whatever the presupposed preprogrammed with its built-in morality, it has to dictated and described within the words of God in the final holy texts God sent to his 'last' messenger. There is no where else Islamic morality can be referred to.

For example of Quran at odds with natural morality, Q5:33 exhort and permit believers to kill non-believers upon the slightest fasadin [threats] to the religion. Surely this cannot be moral on a universal basis.
The Quran condone slavery.
In addition there are loads of evil acts that is condoned and permitted by Allah to be committed upon non-believers and believers who are hypocrites or apostate.
One of the natural elements of morality is empathy to all human beings but Islam does not extend empathy to non-believers at all.

In contrast, Christianity's constitution within the Gospels has an overriding pacifist moral maxim, i.e. love all, even enemies, give the other cheek and the like which every Christian must comply with. If they don't they have sinned and has to ask for forgiveness subject to God to judge so.
It is the same with Buddhism, Jainism and others.
puto
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Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by puto »

Veritas Aequitas.
Troll and you are not even worth it.
godelian
Posts: 2742
Joined: Wed May 04, 2022 4:21 am

Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by godelian »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2024 2:17 am For example of Quran at odds with natural morality
Where is the definitive text for natural morality? Since it is not possible to document natural morality, your claim is unsubstantiated.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2024 2:17 am In contrast, Christianity's constitution within the Gospels has an overriding pacifist moral maxim
So, you are trying to judge Islamic morality by using Christianity as a benchmark?

Lemma: Given two moral theories A and B with their difference | A - B | non-empty, it is trivially provable that:

(1) A is immoral in the context of B
(2) B is immoral in the context of A

The point is that the lemma does not apply to natural morality, because natural morality cannot be documented and therefore the difference | A - B | cannot be computed.

You make two cardinal mistakes:

- You somehow believe that you have a copy of natural morality, while you obviously don't.
- You fail to understand that according to the lemma your claim which compares Islam with Christianity is always true for any two different moralities and is therefore vapid.

Conclusion:

- You somehow believe that you know, while in reality you know f-ck all.
- You are arrogant and that is why you sound so stupid.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 15722
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Unifying spiritual practices to save the world

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Belinda wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2024 11:45 am It means your religion is perfected . It does not say your religion will no longer be up for discussion and review in the light of new challenges.

Throughout the first five Islamic centuries, the practice of ijtihad continued both theoretically and practically amongst Sunni Muslims. The initial dispute surrounding the exercise of ijtihad and the existence of mujtahids emerged in its nascent form around the beginning of the sixth/twelfth century.[6] By the 14th century, development of Islamic Fiqh (jurisprudence) prompted leading Sunni jurists to state that the main legal questions had been addressed and the scope of ijtihad was gradually restricted.[2] In the modern era, this gave rise to a perception amongst Orientalist scholars and sections of the Muslim public that the so-called "gate of ijtihad" was closed at the start of the classical era.[2][7] While recent scholarship established that the practice of Ijtihad had never ceased in Islamic history, the extent and mechanisms of legal change in the post-formative period remain a subject of debate.[8]
Therefore Islam, adapted to the challenges of this year, can still be the unifying force.
Whatever is final with Islam is dictated ONLY in the Quran and no where else i.e. the direct words of Allah as sent to his prophet via Angel Gabriel of which a copy is in the hand of God somewhere in heaven.

The practice of Ijtihad is reasoned from the exegesis of the Quran's 6236 verses and there are likely to be tons of variations of interpretations subject to the infinite psychological states of the believers adapted to different environments. There is no central authority to decide the right or wrong interpretations.

Ijtihad is the use of reasoning to establish laws on earth for humans by humans and because humans are being-human, comprised the good and the evil, fallible, bias and has self-interests, their interpretations are not likely to align with Allah intentions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijtihad

Allah had sent the Quran which was made easy to understand; there are many verses to support this point, here's one;
verse 17 of chapter 54, Surah Al-Qamar (The Moon):
Yusuf Ali
"And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?"
The majority of Muslims are naturally good human beings and thus they tend to twist the verses of the Quran to suit to their basic goodness.

The Quran is inherently evil and is loaded with evil laden verses, thus the evil prone will interpret it as intended, take for example Q5:33:
Q:33 Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and spread mischief [fasad] in the land is death, crucifixion, cutting off their hands and feet on opposite sides, or exile from the land.
The term English term 'mischief' when read within the verse is very misleading.
"Fasad" in Arabic is taken in general to be 'bad' as any threat to the religion, i.e. extend to the slightest but very psychologically impactful to believers which include even disbelieving, drawing of cartoons, blasphemy and the like. This interpretation is confirmed in many tafsirs [interpretations] by many popular and influential Islamic clergies. Btw, there is no central authority to decide they are right or wrong but literally and culturally they are right.
If these popular clergies could influence merely 10% of believers to this 'true' interpretation, there would be a potential 150-200 million of them who are inclined to carry out Q5:33 in its full extent and this is already so evident throughout history since the emergence of the religion.

Now, if a believer were to kill [caused death to one, group or a genocide] those who commit fasad [even the slightest] to the religion, e.g. for being a disbeliever*, commit blasphemy, drawings of cartoons of the P, will he be punished by omniscient Allah on Judgment Day for his compliance with God's word in Q5:33?
Your answer?

*'Disbelievers' are a threat to the religion [it is inherent very insecure], especially when they convert believers out of the religion thus potentially weaken or destroying the religion.

Those Muslims [the majority] who are good human beings will try to interpret Q5:33 as applicable only to very 'serious' evil crimes against the religion or ignore it, but they are misinterpreting the verse's obvious meanings and has sinned if they do not comply with Q5:33 upon the intended scenario happened.

There are tons of such verses in the Quran.
Wars, just, unjust, in self-defense is inherently immoral, as such should not be included in an immutable holy texts till eternity.

In contrast, note Christianity contingent upon the Gospels has an overriding pacifist moral maxim with no room for evil at all as a STANDARD, i.e. love all, even enemies, give the other cheeks.
Being humans, not all Christians will comply with the above, thus the non-compliant has sinned and need to ask for forgiveness or be sent to hell.
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