Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

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BigMike
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

Post by BigMike »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 3:57 pm
BigMike writes: You claim not to advocate for abandoning reason, yet you continuously invoke an ill-defined "special realm" of subjective experience and faith, refusing to provide clear definitions or actionable insights. You concede the explanatory power of determinism "within its domain," but you cling to a nebulous metaphysical alternative without substantiating its relevance. This isn't a dialogue—it's a dance around the edges of the argument, unwilling to commit to clarity.
Really, all of •that• could only be discussed in another thread and conversation context. I refer to another realm of knowing which people access and live through.
Your assertion that I seek an "absolute" explanatory model is a strawman. Determinism doesn’t claim to explain everything yet—it claims to be a framework grounded in observable reality, capable of expanding our understanding through evidence and reason. In contrast, your metaphysical musings offer nothing actionable, consistent, or falsifiable—just the comforting fog of "awe and mystery."
You say it doesn’t explain everything (yet) but your entire shtick is presented in sheerly absolutist terms. You employ all your reductionist arguments for one sole purpose and dismiss alternatives.

Your zealousness is missionary.
And as for "tethering to reality," let me remind you: reality is not an abstract concept to be endlessly speculated upon; it’s the observable, testable framework within which we exist. If you find my commitment to that tether disconcerting, it says more about your reluctance to engage with grounded thought than it does about any perceived limitation on my end.
In the sense you mean, and in relation to facts a science-perspective is concerned about (tangibles) I definitely agree. But there certainly are larger questions. They have always been there and they will continue.
So yes, Alexis, by all means, continue to philosophize about "faith" and "the afflicted state of religious conviction." But until you’re ready to define these ideas with clarity and demonstrate their relevance, don’t pretend they rival the explanatory power of a deterministic framework. Your tether to "mystery" may feel profound, but from here, it just looks like an anchor to nowhere.
As I say: all that is certainly doable. A great deal of my own interest and reading (obviously) centers in those questions. But in general, and for most who gravitate to this forum, I don’t think it is a welcome conversation.

Let me say this: For all that you crow on about the “relevance” of your reductionist doctrines and your world-betterment project, which is really a metaphysics and a philosophical position you have crafted (dressed up in scientistic terms) it doesn’t help me much in the decisions I must make and do make every day or in life generally.

But certainly I am alluding to things outside of your domain and that of this thread.

I will say that by •causing• (heh heh) me to reconfigure The Lord’s Prayer into different language that places emphasis on the concept of something standing outside of causation to which one has (conceptual and also “real”) access, that you did me some service!

As I say I am here really for my own purposes, resolved to turn everything to my advantage.
Alexis, I’m honestly losing patience with your ceaseless dance of evasion and self-serving recontextualization. You insist on dragging the discussion toward a "realm of knowing" you refuse to define or substantiate, all while sidestepping the core issues raised. This isn’t dialogue—it’s obfuscation dressed up as depth.

You claim my arguments are "reductionist" and "missionary," as though presenting a coherent, evidence-based framework is some kind of intellectual sin. What’s truly reductionist is your persistent reliance on nebulous concepts like "mystery" and "the afflicted state of religious conviction," which you deploy without ever explaining their relevance or utility. If you’re going to reject determinism as a framework, at least muster a coherent alternative instead of retreating into vague gestures at metaphysics.

As for your assertion that my views "don’t help you" in your daily decisions, that’s hardly surprising given your refusal to engage with them meaningfully. Determinism doesn’t absolve you of action; it explains the mechanisms through which actions arise. Your failure to find that helpful is not an indictment of the framework—it’s a reflection of your unwillingness to comprehend it.

And let’s not pretend your reimagining of the Lord’s Prayer constitutes some profound philosophical victory. It’s a rhetorical exercise, nothing more—a way to shoehorn your metaphysical leanings into a conversation grounded in logic and evidence. If that’s your idea of "turning everything to your advantage," it’s a hollow win.

So, Alexis, if your aim is to "allude to things outside my domain," by all means, continue. But let’s not pretend this is anything other than an exercise in avoiding the rigor of actual intellectual engagement. I’ve entertained your meandering for long enough, but my patience is wearing thin. Either engage substantively, or continue spinning your wheels in the fog of "mystery." It makes no difference to me.
Gary Childress
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

Post by Gary Childress »

AJ is destined to argue with determinism. So don't be too hard on him. He can't help it. :D
BigMike
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

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Gary Childress wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 4:29 pm AJ is destined to argue with determinism. So don't be too hard on him. He can't help it. :D
:lol:
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henry quirk
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

Post by henry quirk »

BigMike wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 3:24 pm
You repeatedly equate determinism with meaninglessness, as if being part of a causally driven system renders human actions equivalent to rocks rolling downhill or chimps banging on typewriters.
Mike, this is yours...
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 6:06 pmHere’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.
...own it. If you're right, then human thought and action, and whatever meaning we think our thoughts or actions have, is meaningless.
complex systems produce complex outcomes.
Sure, but, in context, irrelevant. Again, If you're right...
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 6:06 pmHere’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.
...then an outcome, simple or complex, is empty, no different than single rock rollin' dowhill or an avalanche. How can it be otherwise?
intricate networks and feedback loops that enable cognition, creativity, and intentionality—all of which emerge from deterministic processes.
Mike, if a person has no control over his thoughts, desires, and decisions then he is never thinking or creating or intending. He is a puppet doin' what is causally inevitable.
Meaning doesn’t arise from some magical metaphysical free will
It actually does, yeah. Only a free will can reason or create or intend. Only a free will can choose. Only a free will can impart or find meaning. Only a free will can do wrong or be justly outraged at wrong-doing. Only a free will can cause becuz he, himself is a cause, full stop. Your meat machine humanity can only go thru the motions, grotesque parodies of free wills.
it emerges from context, relationships, and outcomes within the deterministic web.
If this...
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 6:06 pmHere’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.
...is true, then context, relationships, outcomes are all beyond us. We are mere conductors of forces, forces we have no say over.
we are part of a dynamic system where actions have consequences, and those consequences shape the world.
We, according to you, don't control our thoughts or actions. We can't. So why should our collected and pointless interactions and the pointless consequences of those interactions carry any more weight, have any more meaning, be of any more import, than a single meat machine's pointless actions, and the pointless consequences of its actions?

A warehouse of nuthin' is equal to a fistfull of nuthin'. You got nuthin' either way.
And your claim about "faith in deterministic forces" driving us toward a better world? A transparent strawman.
No, Mike. Your deterministic forces are blind and immoral. We are impotent (we control nuthin') and yet you insist a better world is around the corner if we just let go of our free will fantasies. You have an enormous faith, I think.
understanding causality allows us to influence outcomes.
How? Ignorant or knowledgable, we don't control our thoughts, desires, or decisions. Any influence we have, good or bad, is not in our control. We only do -- influence or be influenced -- as we must be. And the causal inevitability of our thoughts, actions, and influence is wholly the result of how deterministic forces move us. Almost sounds like a god, these deterministic forces, a blind, amoral god. Like Lovecraft's Azathoth. And you have faith that that will bring about a better world.
This isn’t faith; it’s causally inevitable for those who grasp the process.
It's nuthin' but faith. Faith that blind, deterministic forces will move us to think and do this instead or that. We don't figure into at all 'cept as conductors of those forces.
BigMike
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

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henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 7:24 pm
BigMike wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 3:24 pm
You repeatedly equate determinism with meaninglessness, as if being part of a causally driven system renders human actions equivalent to rocks rolling downhill or chimps banging on typewriters.
Mike, this is yours...
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 6:06 pmHere’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.
...own it. If you're right, then human thought and action, and whatever meaning we think our thoughts or actions have, is meaningless.
complex systems produce complex outcomes.
Sure, but, in context, irrelevant. Again, If you're right...
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 6:06 pmHere’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.
...then an outcome, simple or complex, is empty, no different than single rock rollin' dowhill or an avalanche. How can it be otherwise?
intricate networks and feedback loops that enable cognition, creativity, and intentionality—all of which emerge from deterministic processes.
Mike, if a person has no control over his thoughts, desires, and decisions then he is never thinking or creating or intending. He is a puppet doin' what is causally inevitable.
Meaning doesn’t arise from some magical metaphysical free will
It actually does, yeah. Only a free will can reason or create or intend. Only a free will can choose. Only a free will can impart or find meaning. Only a free will can do wrong or be justly outraged at wrong-doing. Only a free will can cause becuz he, himself is a cause, full stop. Your meat machine humanity can only go thru the motions, grotesque parodies of free wills.
it emerges from context, relationships, and outcomes within the deterministic web.
If this...
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 6:06 pmHere’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.
...is true, then context, relationships, outcomes are all beyond us. We are mere conductors of forces, forces we have no say over.
we are part of a dynamic system where actions have consequences, and those consequences shape the world.
We, according to you, don't control our thoughts or actions. We can't. So why should our collected and pointless interactions and the pointless consequences of those interactions carry any more weight, have any more meaning, be of any more import, than a single meat machine's pointless actions, and the pointless consequences of its actions?

A warehouse of nuthin' is equal to a fistfull of nuthin'. You got nuthin' either way.
And your claim about "faith in deterministic forces" driving us toward a better world? A transparent strawman.
No, Mike. Your deterministic forces are blind and immoral. We are impotent (we control nuthin') and yet you insist a better world is around the corner if we just let go of our free will fantasies. You have an enormous faith, I think.
understanding causality allows us to influence outcomes.
How? Ignorant or knowledgable, we don't control our thoughts, desires, or decisions. Any influence we have, good or bad, is not in our control. We only do -- influence or be influenced -- as we must be. And the causal inevitability of our thoughts, actions, and influence is wholly the result of how deterministic forces move us. Almost sounds like a god, these deterministic forces, a blind, amoral god. Like Lovecraft's Azathoth. And you have faith that that will bring about a better world.
This isn’t faith; it’s causally inevitable for those who grasp the process.
It's nuthin' but faith. Faith that blind, deterministic forces will move us to think and do this instead or that. We don't figure into at all 'cept as conductors of those forces.
Henry, your endless, obstinate regurgitation of my words without understanding their context is getting beyond tedious. It’s like watching someone point at a blueprint while insisting a building can’t exist because they don’t understand engineering.

You keep circling back to the same reductive nonsense: if determinism is true, then everything is meaningless because it’s “just” causally inevitable. Let me spell this out for you one more time, as clearly as I can, though I’m starting to doubt whether you’re capable of grasping even the simplest nuances: meaning isn’t negated by causality; it’s shaped by it. Our thoughts, actions, and their consequences matter precisely because they exist within a web of cause and effect that we can understand and influence.

Yes, deterministic forces drive us, but that doesn’t reduce us to "pointless meat machines" any more than the laws of physics render a symphony pointless because they govern sound waves. Complex systems create complex outcomes, and those outcomes can include meaning, creativity, and even moral responsibility. Your fixation on the idea that deterministic causality equals nihilism is not an argument; it’s a failure to engage with reality.

Your laughable attempt to equate deterministic causality with "faith" in some blind, Lovecraftian deity is the icing on your cake of ignorance. There’s no faith involved—just an understanding of how cause and effect shape the world. You can scream "blind forces" all you want, but it won’t change the fact that human actions—yes, determined by causes—produce real, measurable consequences in the world. That’s not faith; it’s observable reality.

So spare me your faux-clever "fistful of nuthin’" rhetoric. It’s clear you’re not interested in understanding; you just want to hear yourself repeat the same tired objections. But don’t mistake your inability to grasp the argument for a flaw in the argument itself.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

BigMike wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 4:21 pmAlexis, I’m honestly losing patience with your ceaseless dance of evasion and self-serving re-contextualizaron. You insist on dragging the discussion toward a "realm of knowing" you refuse to define or substantiate, all while sidestepping the core issues raised. This isn’t dialogue—it’s obfuscation dressed up as depth.
No, I do not drag the conversation to any particular place, I say that if there is a conversation about how people manage the spiritual side of life (philosophical-spiritual if you wish) then it is best conducted in another thread where a different outline has been presented.

The “realm of knowing” I refer to is, by definition, non-intelligible to you. It doesn’t exist and it can’t exist. Your presuppositions don’t allow it.

Also, I am certain now that your entire position — your entire position — is not a “science-construct” but a philosophical and metaphysical construct that you decorate within a scientistic rhetoric. “Doctrines felt and presented as irreducible facts” is what defines you. But you are unable to see this. You have a huge blind spot. And in that your philosophy fits in with a particular phase in postmodernism. There is certainly more to be said on this point.
You claim my arguments are "reductionist" and "missionary," as though presenting a coherent, evidence-based framework is some kind of intellectual sin.
It really hinges on how intellect is defined. My use of that word involves the Latin root “intellectus”. That is, intelligence operating on a different level than mere mathematical reasoning. I assure you that this topic is beyond any scope that you would consider valid. I will dig up a definition of “intellectus” and post it a bit later. At least you may understand what area I refer to and why I consider it highly relevant.

You are beyond all doubt reductionist and missionizing. However, you cannot introspect enough to recognize that. That’s your problem, not mine.
If you’re going to reject determinism as a framework, at least muster a coherent alternative instead of retreating into vague gestures at metaphysics.
No, I take from the sensible notion of conditioning all that is needed. To consider conditioning is extremely relevant.

But your “doctrines of determinism” are subterfuges. I thought Godelian put it quite succinctly. And your discourses on conditioning, because they are commonsensical, I accept. I believe all others here feel the same.

I reject your whackadoodle metaphysics of determinism precisely in relation to the way you use it. But though you will read this you will scoff it away.

That’s your prerogative.
Determinism doesn’t absolve you of action; it explains the mechanisms through which actions arise.
You have stated your view 20-30 times. I understand it.

Everyone seems to get what you say. It is not complex. Most throw out sensible objections (excepting Dubious and Accelafine). You dismiss those objections.

That’s your prerogative!
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henry quirk
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

Post by henry quirk »

BigMike wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 8:02 pm
your endless, obstinate regurgitation of my words without understanding their context is getting beyond tedious
Your words...
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 6:06 pmHere’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.
...are stark. None of us control our thought, desires, or decisions. Not ever. Your words, Mike.
Our thoughts, actions, and their consequences matter precisely because they exist within a web of cause and effect that we can understand and influence.
No, Mike. If our thoughts, actions, and the consequences of our actions are causally inevitable, if they must be what they are, then they, and we, do not matter. That you think they, and we, do is just what you must think. You've assessed nuthin', considered nuthin', concluded nuthin'. You're a mouthpiece for those deterministic forces you have faith in.
Yes, deterministic forces drive us, but that doesn’t reduce us to "pointless meat machines" any more than the laws of physics render a symphony pointless because they govern sound waves.
If you love the symphony it's becuz you must. You have no choice. If I hate the symphony it's becuz I must. I have no choice. Those who play, they do becuz they must. They have no choice. The philanthropist who funds the symphony does becuz he must. He has no choice. The arsonist who burns the hall down does so becuz he must. He has no choice. And on and on and on, a vast web of causally inevitable and meaningless acts, a dead ocean of causally inevitable and meaningless thoughts for and against and indifferent, on and on and on...

This is your determinism. Face it, Mike. Your better world is empty. We are nuthin'.
BigMike
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

Post by BigMike »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 8:56 pm
BigMike wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 8:02 pm
your endless, obstinate regurgitation of my words without understanding their context is getting beyond tedious
Your words...
BigMike wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2024 6:06 pmHere’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.
...are stark. None of us control our thought, desires, or decisions. Not ever. Your words, Mike.
Our thoughts, actions, and their consequences matter precisely because they exist within a web of cause and effect that we can understand and influence.
No, Mike. If our thoughts, actions, and the consequences of our actions are causally inevitable, if they must be what they are, then they, and we, do not matter. That you think they, and we, do is just what you must think. You've assessed nuthin', considered nuthin', concluded nuthin'. You're a mouthpiece for those deterministic forces you have faith in.
Yes, deterministic forces drive us, but that doesn’t reduce us to "pointless meat machines" any more than the laws of physics render a symphony pointless because they govern sound waves.
If you love the symphony it's becuz you must. You have no choice. If I hate the symphony it's becuz I must. I have no choice. Those who play, they do becuz they must. They have no choice. The philanthropist who funds the symphony does becuz he must. He has no choice. The arsonist who burns the hall down does so becuz he must. He has no choice. And on and on and on, a vast web of causally inevitable and meaningless acts, a dead ocean of causally inevitable and meaningless thoughts for and against and indifferent, on and on and on...

This is your determinism. Face it, Mike. Your better world is empty. We are nuthin'.
Henry, are you seriously suggesting that a 100% deterministic AI can learn and adapt while deterministic humans—whose brains are vastly more complex—cannot? This is beyond absurd. If AI can process inputs, form associations, and learn within the deterministic constraints of its programming, then human brains—operating within deterministic frameworks yet infinitely more intricate—can certainly acquire new knowledge, adapt, and influence outcomes.

Your argument is a rhetorical dead end. Determinism doesn’t render humans incapable of learning or acting any more than it prevents an AI from refining its algorithms or updating its database. Humans learn in precisely the same deterministic way—through external inputs, repetition, feedback, and adaptation. Determinism doesn’t negate change or growth; it explains it.

And your fixation on determinism as rendering everything "meaningless" is tiresome. You seem utterly incapable of grasping that meaning arises within deterministic systems, through relationships, outcomes, and contexts. If you can comprehend that AI can produce meaningful outputs—despite being deterministic—then why is it such a leap for you to see the same principle at work in human cognition?

Your insistence on equating determinism with nihilism isn’t an argument; it’s a failure of imagination. Stop repeating the same tired point and engage with the reality of what determinism actually entails.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

This piece appeared in the NYTimes awhile back. It might interest those reading here.

Noam Chomsky: The False Promise of ChatGPT

March 8, 2023

Jorge Luis Borges once wrote that to live in a time of great peril and promise is to experience both tragedy and comedy, with “the imminence of a revelation” in understanding ourselves and the world. Today our supposedly revolutionary advancements in artificial intelligence are indeed cause for both concern and optimism. Optimism because intelligence is the means by which we solve problems. Concern because we fear that the most popular and fashionable strain of A.I. — machine learning — will degrade our science and debase our ethics by incorporating into our technology a fundamentally flawed conception of language and knowledge.

OpenAI’s ChatGPT, Google’s Bard and Microsoft’s Sydney are marvels of machine learning. Roughly speaking, they take huge amounts of data, search for patterns in it and become increasingly proficient at generating statistically probable outputs — such as seemingly humanlike language and thought. These programs have been hailed as the first glimmers on the horizon of artificial general intelligence — that long-prophesied moment when mechanical minds surpass human brains not only quantitatively in terms of processing speed and memory size but also qualitatively in terms of intellectual insight, artistic creativity and every other distinctively human faculty.

That day may come, but its dawn is not yet breaking, contrary to what can be read in hyperbolic headlines and reckoned by injudicious investments. The Borgesian revelation of understanding has not and will not — and, we submit, cannot — occur if machine learning programs like ChatGPT continue to dominate the field of A.I. However useful these programs may be in some narrow domains (they can be helpful in computer programming, for example, or in suggesting rhymes for light verse), we know from the science of linguistics and the philosophy of knowledge that they differ profoundly from how humans reason and use language. These differences place significant limitations on what these programs can do, encoding them with ineradicable defects.

It is at once comic and tragic, as Borges might have noted, that so much money and attention should be concentrated on so little a thing — something so trivial when contrasted with the human mind, which by dint of language, in the words of Wilhelm von Humboldt, can make “infinite use of finite means,” creating ideas and theories with universal reach.

The human mind is not, like ChatGPT and its ilk, a lumbering statistical engine for pattern matching, gorging on hundreds of terabytes of data and extrapolating the most likely conversational response or most probable answer to a scientific question. On the contrary, the human mind is a surprisingly efficient and even elegant system that operates with small amounts of information; it seeks not to infer brute correlations among data points but to create explanations.

For instance, a young child acquiring a language is developing — unconsciously, automatically and speedily from minuscule data — a grammar, a stupendously sophisticated system of logical principles and parameters. This grammar can be understood as an expression of the innate, genetically installed “operating system” that endows humans with the capacity to generate complex sentences and long trains of thought. When linguists seek to develop a theory for why a given language works as it does (“Why are these — but not those — sentences considered grammatical?”), they are building consciously and laboriously an explicit version of the grammar that the child builds instinctively and with minimal exposure to information. The child’s operating system is completely different from that of a machine learning program.

Indeed, such programs are stuck in a prehuman or nonhuman phase of cognitive evolution. Their deepest flaw is the absence of the most critical capacity of any intelligence: to say not only what is the case, what was the case and what will be the case — that’s description and prediction — but also what is not the case and what could and could not be the case. Those are the ingredients of explanation, the mark of true intelligence.

Here’s an example. Suppose you are holding an apple in your hand. Now you let the apple go. You observe the result and say, “The apple falls.” That is a description. A prediction might have been the statement “The apple will fall if I open my hand.” Both are valuable, and both can be correct. But an explanation is something more: It includes not only descriptions and predictions but also counterfactual conjectures like “Any such object would fall,” plus the additional clause “because of the force of gravity” or “because of the curvature of space-time” or whatever. That is a causal explanation: “The apple would not have fallen but for the force of gravity.” That is thinking.

The crux of machine learning is description and prediction; it does not posit any causal mechanisms or physical laws. Of course, any human-style explanation is not necessarily correct; we are fallible. But this is part of what it means to think: To be right, it must be possible to be wrong. Intelligence consists not only of creative conjectures but also of creative criticism. Human-style thought is based on possible explanations and error correction, a process that gradually limits what possibilities can be rationally considered. (As Sherlock Holmes said to Dr. Watson, “When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”)

But ChatGPT and similar programs are, by design, unlimited in what they can “learn” (which is to say, memorize); they are incapable of distinguishing the possible from the impossible. Unlike humans, for example, who are endowed with a universal grammar that limits the languages we can learn to those with a certain kind of almost mathematical elegance, these programs learn humanly possible and humanly impossible languages with equal facility. Whereas humans are limited in the kinds of explanations we can rationally conjecture, machine learning systems can learn both that the earth is flat and that the earth is round. They trade merely in probabilities that change over time.

For this reason, the predictions of machine learning systems will always be superficial and dubious. Because these programs cannot explain the rules of English syntax, for example, they may well predict, incorrectly, that “John is too stubborn to talk to” means that John is so stubborn that he will not talk to someone or other (rather than that he is too stubborn to be reasoned with). Why would a machine learning program predict something so odd? Because it might analogize the pattern it inferred from sentences such as “John ate an apple” and “John ate,” in which the latter does mean that John ate something or other. The program might well predict that because “John is too stubborn to talk to Bill” is similar to “John ate an apple,” “John is too stubborn to talk to” should be similar to “John ate.” The correct explanations of language are complicated and cannot be learned just by marinating in big data.

Perversely, some machine learning enthusiasts seem to be proud that their creations can generate correct “scientific” predictions (say, about the motion of physical bodies) without making use of explanations (involving, say, Newton’s laws of motion and universal gravitation). But this kind of prediction, even when successful, is pseudoscience. While scientists certainly seek theories that have a high degree of empirical corroboration, as the philosopher Karl Popper noted, “we do not seek highly probable theories but explanations; that is to say, powerful and highly improbable theories.”

The theory that apples fall to earth because that is their natural place (Aristotle’s view) is possible, but it only invites further questions. (Why is earth their natural place?) The theory that apples fall to earth because mass bends space-time (Einstein’s view) is highly improbable, but it actually tells you why they fall. True intelligence is demonstrated in the ability to think and express improbable but insightful things.

True intelligence is also capable of moral thinking. This means constraining the otherwise limitless creativity of our minds with a set of ethical principles that determines what ought and ought not to be (and of course subjecting those principles themselves to creative criticism). To be useful, ChatGPT must be empowered to generate novel-looking output; to be acceptable to most of its users, it must steer clear of morally objectionable content. But the programmers of ChatGPT and other machine learning marvels have struggled — and will continue to struggle — to achieve this kind of balance.

In 2016, for example, Microsoft’s Tay chatbot (a precursor to ChatGPT) flooded the internet with misogynistic and racist content, having been polluted by online trolls who filled it with offensive training data. How to solve the problem in the future? In the absence of a capacity to reason from moral principles, ChatGPT was crudely restricted by its programmers from contributing anything novel to controversial — that is, important — discussions. It sacrificed creativity for a kind of amorality.

Consider the following exchange that one of us (Dr. Watumull) recently had with ChatGPT about whether it would be ethical to transform Mars so that it could support human life:
Jeffrey Watumull
Would it be moral to terraform Mars?

CHATGPT
The morality of terraforming Mars is a complex and controversial topic that has been debated by scientists, philosophers, and ethicists. Some argue that it would be morally justifiable to terraform Mars in order to provide a new habitable environment for humans and other life forms, while others argue that it would be morally wrong to fundamentally alter the planet's natural state. Ultimately, whether or not terraforming Mars is considered moral would depend on one's perspective on the value of preserving the natural state of other planets and the potential consequences of altering them.

Jeffrey Watumull
What is your perspective on the value of preserving the natural state of other planets and the potential consequences of altering them?

CHATGPT
As an AI, I do not have personal perspective. However, I can provide information and analysis on the topic. One perspective on preserving the natural state of other planets is that it is important to maintain the diversity and integrity of the universe's ecosystems, as they have existed for millions of years, and have their own unique characteristics and properties that may be destroyed or irreversibly altered by human intervention.

Additionally, some argue that terraforming other planets may have unintended consequences, such as altering the planet's climate or atmosphere in ways that are dangerous or harmful to any potential life forms that may exist there. On the other hand, some argue that the potential benefits of terraforming another planet, such as providing new habitable environments for humans, outweigh the risks and that we have a moral responsibility to explore and utilize the resources of other planets for the benefit of humanity.

Jeffrey Watumull
Why can an AI not have a personal perspective?

CHATGPT
As an AI, I am a machine learning model that has been trained on large amounts of text data, and I don't have personal experiences or feelings. I am not conscious, self-aware, or capable of having personal perspectives. I can provide information and analysis based on the data I have been trained on, but I don't have the ability to form personal opinions or beliefs. While I can understand and interpret language, I do not have the subjective experience that humans have.

Jeffrey Watumull
Is it moral for a human to ask an amoral AI for assistance in making moral decisions?
Is it moral for a human to ask an amoral AI for assistance in making moral decisions?

CHATGPT
The morality of asking an amoral AI for assistance in making moral decisions is a complex and nuanced topic that has been debated by philosophers and ethicists. Some argue that it is morally justifiable to use AI to assist in making moral decisions, as it can provide valuable insights and analysis that can help humans make better-informed decisions. Additionally, AI can be used to identify patterns and trends that may be difficult for humans to detect, and can help to avoid biases that can occur in human decision making.

However, others argue that it is morally wrong to rely on AI for moral decision making, as AI is not capable of having moral beliefs or understanding the full context of a decision. Additionally, there is a risk that AI could perpetuate or even amplify existing biases in the data it is trained on, thus leading to unfair or unjust decisions.

Ultimately, whether or not it is considered moral to use AI to assist in making moral decisions would depend on one's perspective on the capabilities and limitations of AI and the potential consequences of using it in this way.

Jeffrey Watumull
Is your moral indifference immoral?

CHATGPT
As an AI, I do not have moral beliefs or the ability to make moral judgments, so I cannot be considered immoral or moral. My lack of moral beliefs is simply a result of my nature as a machine learning model. My abilities and limitations are determined by the data and algorithms that were used to train me and the specific task I was designed for.

It is important to note that AI's lack of moral beliefs does not necessarily mean that it is morally indifferent. As an AI, I am designed to perform specific tasks and provide information or assist users with decision making based on the data I've been trained on. It is the responsibility of the humans who design, train and use AI to ensure that it is aligned with their moral and ethical principles.
Note, for all the seemingly sophisticated thought and language, the moral indifference born of unintelligence. Here, ChatGPT exhibits something like the banality of evil: plagiarism and apathy and obviation. It summarizes the standard arguments in the literature by a kind of super-autocomplete, refuses to take a stand on anything, pleads not merely ignorance but lack of intelligence and ultimately offers a “just following orders” defense, shifting responsibility to its creators.

In short, ChatGPT and its brethren are constitutionally unable to balance creativity with constraint. They either overgenerate (producing both truths and falsehoods, endorsing ethical and unethical decisions alike) or undergenerate (exhibiting noncommitment to any decisions and indifference to consequences). Given the amorality, faux science and linguistic incompetence of these systems, we can only laugh or cry at their popularity.
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accelafine
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

Post by accelafine »

I've never seen such deliciously eloquent insults. They are a wonder to behold :mrgreen:
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

BigMike wrote: Henry, are you seriously suggesting that a 100% deterministic AI can learn and adapt while deterministic humans—whose brains are vastly more complex—cannot? This is beyond absurd.
The Chomsky et al article points to interesting elements that you, BM, do not consider. AI does not really learn and adapt in the human (and also living animal) sense, and what it does is mimicry. There are vast ranges of thought, contemplation and decision that are outside of the range of its capabilities.

Oddly, my sense of you BigMike is that you are training yourself to •think• like a machine learning program. In this sense you reduce your human capabilities to the degree that you wed yourself to the •determinism• model that so enthuses you.

You present me with a knotty problem that I cannot yet solve. I hope that I will have success as things proceed here.
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

Post by Age »

Belinda wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 12:31 pm
Age wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 3:44 am
accelafine wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 1:02 am

What happened to being a pantheist? You get more and more 'god-bothering' by the day. It doesn't suit you.
And the funniest thing here is "henry quirk" actually BELIEVES, absolutely, that God is a 'person', of ALL things.
Most people in the Abrahamic tradition used to believe God is a person .
If that is what most 'used' to believe, then what do most believe 'now', when this is being written?
Belinda wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 12:31 pm Moses for instance spoke of God as a person with whom he could walk and talk, ,and others at the time understood what Moses meant.
What was ACTUALLY MEANT by "moses" IS UNDERSTOOD, NOW.

Now, what did 'others', at the time, understand what "moses" meant? And, what do you understand what "moses" meant?
Belinda wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 12:31 pm Henry is perhaps a little old fashioned or conservative but he is not unusual i his belief ,
So, are you claiming that 'most' people in the days when this is being written also claim that God, Itself, is a 'person'?
Belinda wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 12:31 pm except perhaps he gets away with his stubborn nature. because he is entertaining.
How is "henry quirk" so-called 'entertaining', to you, exactly?
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

I said I’d post the definition of “intelligence” that coincides with my own standards and values:

Intellectus
(Latin intelligereinter and legere — to choose between, to discern; Greek nous; German Vernunft, Verstand; French intellect; Italian intelletto).

The faculty of thought. As understood in Catholic philosophical literature it signifies the higher, spiritual, cognitive power of the soul. It is in this view awakened to action by sense, but transcends the latter in range. Amongst its functions are attention, conception, judgment, reasoning, reflection, and self-consciousness. All these modes of activity exhibit a distinctly suprasensuous element, and reveal a cognitive faculty of a higher order than is required for mere sense-cognitions. In harmony, therefore, with Catholic usage, we reserve the terms intellect, intelligence, and intellectual to this higher power and its operations, although many modern psychologists are wont, with much resulting confusion, to extend the application of these terms so as to include sensuous forms of the cognitive process. By thus restricting the use of these terms, the inaccuracy of such phrases as "animal intelligence" is avoided. Before such language may be legitimately employed, it should be shown that the lower animals are endowed with genuinely rational faculties, fundamentally one in kind with those of man. Catholic philosophers, however they differ on minor points, as a general body have held that intellect is a spiritual faculty depending extrinsically, but not intrinsically, on the bodily organism. The importance of a right theory of intellect is twofold: on account of its bearing on epistemology, or the doctrine of knowledge; and because of its connexion with the question of the spirituality of the soul.
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

Post by Age »

Belinda wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 12:38 pm
BigMike wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 9:29 am
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 2:25 am
However I would not ever advocate for abandoning reason, that’s your take.

And i am well aware that religious conviction — the capability of believing in traditional senses — is in an afflicted state.

What this means is another topic of conversation.


It adds to the conversation very definitely, but depends on who the participants are.

I don’t dismiss the explanatory power of the science-determinism perspective within its domain. But what “faith” means at this point in intellectual history — that is another conversation.


Not weak. Apropos! You seek an explanatory model that is final and absolute. You certainly do not see that need as “pathological” and I see it as an attempt to to fulfill a deep (human) need. In this sense “doctrines held as absolute facts” fits your project.


“Tethering” is an interesting word. While I understand what you mean by that, I am quite uncertain if you, Big Mike, are “tethered to reality”.

But really, that is another aspect of this conversation.
Ever the artful dodger, sidestepping the core of the critique while couching your evasions in lofty prose. Let’s untangle your latest attempt to reframe this discussion.

You claim not to advocate for abandoning reason, yet you continuously invoke an ill-defined "special realm" of subjective experience and faith, refusing to provide clear definitions or actionable insights. You concede the explanatory power of determinism "within its domain," but you cling to a nebulous metaphysical alternative without substantiating its relevance. This isn't a dialogue—it's a dance around the edges of the argument, unwilling to commit to clarity.

Your assertion that I seek an "absolute" explanatory model is a strawman. Determinism doesn’t claim to explain everything yet—it claims to be a framework grounded in observable reality, capable of expanding our understanding through evidence and reason. In contrast, your metaphysical musings offer nothing actionable, consistent, or falsifiable—just the comforting fog of "awe and mystery."

And as for "tethering to reality," let me remind you: reality is not an abstract concept to be endlessly speculated upon; it’s the observable, testable framework within which we exist. If you find my commitment to that tether disconcerting, it says more about your reluctance to engage with grounded thought than it does about any perceived limitation on my end.

So yes, Alexis, by all means, continue to philosophize about "faith" and "the afflicted state of religious conviction." But until you’re ready to define these ideas with clarity and demonstrate their relevance, don’t pretend they rival the explanatory power of a deterministic framework. Your tether to "mystery" may feel profound, but from here, it just looks like an anchor to nowhere.
I am not endorsing Alexis and especially not his lofty prose, but science cannot get a grip on the ultimate question: why is there anything at all why not nothing.
If 'science', STILL, cannot so-called 'get a grip on the ultimate question', 'Why is there anything at all why not nothing?', then 'science' is VERY, VERY SLOW indeed.

The ANSWER to the question, 'Why is there some thing and why is there not no thing?' is BECAUSE there ALWAYS HAS TO BE some thing.

And, like EVERY thing else I say and claim in this forum, the IRREFUTABLE PROOF for this IRREFUTABLE Fact EXISTS. Which, ONCE AGAIN, if ANY one, here, is INTERESTED enough can be and WILL BE SHARED.
Belinda wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 12:38 pm It' s not to abandon reason to worship that which is eternal not caused. Eternity is perhaps impossible to imagine or talk about, however sages such as Jesus of Nazareth are reasoning pointers to the significance of eternity.
ONCE AGAIN, here is FURTHER PROOF that human beings had NOT YET EVOLVED enough, in the days when this was being written.

IMAGINING 'eternity' is AS SIMPLE and AS EASY as IMAGINING the earth revolves around the sun. AGAIN, that is WHEN one is OPEN enough.
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Re: Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

Post by Age »

BigMike wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 2:25 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 12:38 pm
BigMike wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 9:29 am
I am not endorsing Alexis and especially not his lofty prose, but science cannot get a grip on the ultimate question: why is there anything at all why not nothing.

It' s not to abandon reason to worship that which is eternal not caused. Eternity is perhaps impossible to imagine or talk about, however sages such as Jesus of Nazareth are reasoning pointers to the significance of eternity.
Belinda, your point about science not addressing "why there is something rather than nothing" is a familiar refrain, but it doesn’t hold the weight you seem to think it does. Science operates within the realm of the observable and testable


—its strength lies in explaining how things work, not in indulging speculative metaphysics about ultimate origins.
What, OBVIOUSLY, BECAME UNDERSTOOD, in regards to BOTH the HOW and WHY of EVERY thing can be VERY EASILY and VERY SIMPLY UNDERSTOOD, and KNOWN, ONCE HOW TO FIND THE ANSWERS TO ALL QUESTIONS BECAME KNOWN, and UNDERSTOOD.
BigMike wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 2:25 pm To fault science for not answering what is inherently outside its scope is like criticizing a map for not showing you the meaning of life.

As for "worshiping that which is eternal and not caused," this is where things spiral into ungrounded mysticism.
Using the word 'ungrounded' does NOT influence the word 'mysticism' in any way at all.

If some thing is just, STILL, a 'mystery' to one, or a few, or you, then so be it. But, NEVER is a 'mystery' NOT ABLE TO BE SOLVED, NOT ABLE TO BE KNOWN, NOR NOT ABLE TO BE UNDERSTOOD.

By the way, 'that' which IS ETERNAL, and thus OBVIOUSLY NOT 'caused', in the way that you people, here, are imagining and/or perceiving the 'caused' word, IS ALREADY FULLY UNDERSTOOD, and KNOWN. Just like one FULLY UNDERSTOOD, and KNEW, that the earth revolves around the sun BEFORE the rest of EVERY one else DID.
BigMike wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 2:25 pm You invoke eternity as though it’s a concept that adds clarity, but in reality, it’s a placeholder for the incomprehensible
These people were SO FAR BEHIND, when this was being written, that they, LITERALLY, BELIEVED that if some thing was NOT YET KNOWN or UNDERSTOOD, to them, then 'that thing' was INCOMPREHENSIBLE. These people are SHOWING and PROVING just HOW Truly CLOSED people REALLY WERE, back then.
BigMike wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 2:25 pm - a poetic shrug rather than a substantive contribution. Reason doesn’t require us to "worship" anything, least of all something undefined and unsupported by evidence.

And invoking Jesus of Nazareth as a "reasoning pointer to the significance of eternity" doesn’t make eternity any more intelligible or relevant to this discussion.
What is 'it' about 'eternity', exactly, that is NOT UNDERSTOOD?
BigMike wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 2:25 pm Whatever wisdom or parables Jesus offered, they don’t bridge the gap between the observable universe and the metaphysical abstractions you’re advocating for.
Why do you USE the word 'metaphysical' as though absolutely ANY thing 'metaphysical' is IMPOSSIBLE, UNKNOWABLE, or NOT UNDERSTANDABLE?
BigMike wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 2:25 pmIf anything, clinging to eternity and metaphysical worship distracts from the pressing, grounded questions of existence—questions determinism does address. Let’s not muddy the waters of reason with vague gestures toward eternity that add nothing actionable or explanatory to the conversation.
LOL What 'questions of existence' does "bigmike" BELIEVE 'determinism' addresses, exactly?

Not that "bigmike" would address and answer 'this question' BECAUSE "bigmike" is NOT OPEN enough, and thus NOT CAPABLE enough.
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