Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

[attofishpi]

For those who understand and accept reality—who grasp what is and isn’t true—the lingering questions might now be: So what? What’s next? Is that all there is? It feels like the right moment to turn to those questions and explore the implications: the absence of free will, the lack of moral responsibility, and what that all means for us. These answers don’t come from the laws of nature; they’re ours to shape.

Mike, as much as I like you as a fairly fair debater upon this forum that is clearly wrong about what shape your version of the deterministic universe has formed you...basically like a pointless piece of poo..it doth indeed sadden me.

Instead of giving the middle finger do you realise that Brian only looks as if he's pointing to the previous post?

..RIGHT! This is a philosophy forum and I must address the glaring failure within your 'logic'..

HOW, did you know that Brian was giving the middle finger IF "Brian only looks as if he's pointing to the previous post? "

GET OUT OF THAT 1

[BigMike]

..nah mate - since knowing GOD to exist for the past 27 years - having my arse kicked by the Jew that I sometimes think didn't bother to convert to Christianity - it's apparent that this entity wouldn't have bothered with 10 commandments if we don't make decisions based on our decisions based on our decisions as we reincarnate through time karmically based on our decisions etc..

Interesting perspective! Just to make sure I’m following, are you sharing this as a literal belief in reincarnation and karmic decision-making, or is this more of a metaphorical take on free will and consequences? I’d like to understand better where you’re coming from.

[Skepdick]

As the discussion here seems to be winding down—aside from a couple of newcomers excitedly grappling with the concept of infinity—I think it’s time to pivot. From my perspective, the forum has become much more productive now that most of the science deniers have faded into the background. My consistent focus on conservation laws, and by extension determinism, has been about laying the groundwork for tackling the central question of this topic.

For those who understand and accept reality—who grasp what is and isn’t true—the lingering questions might now be: So what? What’s next? Is that all there is? It feels like the right moment to turn to those questions and explore the implications: the absence of free will, the lack of moral responsibility, and what that all means for us. These answers don’t come from the laws of nature; they’re ours to shape.

The choice before us—whether to continue perpetuating systemic cruelty or to rise above our primal instincts and seek a better way—depends entirely on the intellectual honesty and collaborative capacity of those who truly "get it." Whether we can agree on a path forward, and what that path might be, is the challenge that remains.

The echo chamber is coming along nicely. Alas, having been stripped from my agency, I have no choice but to believe in free will. Your insistence to the contrary causally compels me.

At what point will deviance become punishable by death in your deterministic utopia?

[attofishpi]

..nah mate - since knowing GOD to exist for the past 27 years - having my arse kicked by the Jew that I sometimes think didn't bother to convert to Christianity - it's apparent that this entity wouldn't have bothered with 10 commandments if we don't make decisions based on our decisions based on our decisions as we reincarnate through time karmically based on our decisions etc..

Interesting perspective! Just to make sure I’m following, are you sharing this as a literal belief in reincarnation and karmic decision-making, or is this more of a metaphorical take on free will and consequences? I’d like to understand better where you’re coming from.

Sure. 1997 - GOD made itself aware to me. Nov 13th 2005 After being bashed up via a baseball bat (that morning a voice from the aether had stated "tonight bad luck") - discharged from hospital & screw up with pain killers - fractured arm. Knowing since 1997 GOD to exist yadayada I say a prayer asking for pain to go (I couldn't sleep and was literally in tears with agony) a voice from the aether said "would you like me to erase that?" - of course I said yes - the pain went for 10 mins - then started to return "do you understand" was said - NO!! I said you f'ing bla bla get rid of the pain (actually, I sort of understand now)
ANYWAY getting back to the reincarnation thang - so I asked "who are you, are you GOD?" - the reply was "I am a sage" - I considered looking it up in my dictionary and was tapped heavily on my RIGHT knee as in do that. - it read- an extremely wise person.

I asked this sage some questions that night - one was "are we born into a family on reincarnation based on how we have conducted our life? a family we deserve?" - i was tapped heavily on my right knee - as in that's RIGHT.


So, to sum up I suppose - yes, go through life as a good atheist - be reborn as an atheist into a good atheist family. Go through life as a woteva and start believing in Hinduism - you may get born into that faith etc etc etc...

Kill and rape little children/kill for Allah - get born as a pig 666 yum yum

[Alexis Jacobi]

Recognizing determinism isn’t about waking up and seeing the world change instantly. It’s about creating the possibility for a systemic, collective shift in how we approach morality, justice, and responsibility. When we understand that every action is causally linked to prior conditions—when cruelty, failure, and even brilliance are seen as the inevitable outcomes of that chain—we begin to see the futility of blame and retribution. The question then becomes: what do we do with this knowledge?

I knew she was on to something, I just did not understand what.

[Dubious]

So no, it’s not “business as usual”—at least not for those who internalize the implications. It’s the beginning of a long, deliberate shift toward a society that embraces truth, compassion, and rationality. What we build in its place is, ironically, up to us.

You're right in thinking that enough has been said about it. My view, to an extent, differs from yours in that I never underestimate human fallibility. If not expedient to the moment, humans will always short-circuit themselves in service to that moment. It's the most potent way to preempt the destiny he hopes to achieve.

For me the paradigm of free will relative to determinism is that they appear to be in collusion. Determinism is a process, fixed by laws, by which determinations are made in the sense that it can negate any number of prior resolves that process may have encountered. Determinism is in that sense, recursive, a battle against itself; it is what critiques itself before finalizing the outcome...a drama which can happen in a matter of seconds without our noticing it, resembling, in effect, a free will episode which endorses the illusion that WE have decided.

...anyway, it was an interesting conversation, one in which I completely agree as to its physical underpinning but less so as to its consequences in terms of any kind of enlightenment the human psyche will accept.

[Alexis Jacobi]

From my perspective, the forum has become much more productive now that most of the science deniers have faded into the background. My consistent focus on conservation laws, and by extension determinism, has been about laying the groundwork for tackling the central question of this topic.

May i suggest developing a line of supplements and performance enhancers? Also: Where can I get a tee shirt?

[Alexis Jacobi]

For those who understand and accept reality—who grasp what is and isn’t true—the lingering questions might now be: So what? What’s next? Is that all there is?

Well, for myself I can only hope that Dubious overcomes his retrograde cynicism, buys a ukelele and learns to play it, puts his notions to music, and starts a YouTube channel with a karaoke option ….

Dream BIG!

[BigMike]

..nah mate - since knowing GOD to exist for the past 27 years - having my arse kicked by the Jew that I sometimes think didn't bother to convert to Christianity - it's apparent that this entity wouldn't have bothered with 10 commandments if we don't make decisions based on our decisions based on our decisions as we reincarnate through time karmically based on our decisions etc..

Interesting perspective! Just to make sure I’m following, are you sharing this as a literal belief in reincarnation and karmic decision-making, or is this more of a metaphorical take on free will and consequences? I’d like to understand better where you’re coming from.

Sure. 1997 - GOD made itself aware to me. Nov 13th 2005 After being bashed up via a baseball bat (that morning a voice from the aether had stated "tonight bad luck") - discharged from hospital & screw up with pain killers - fractured arm. Knowing since 1997 GOD to exist yadayada I say a prayer asking for pain to go (I couldn't sleep and was literally in tears with agony) a voice from the aether said "would you like me to erase that?" - of course I said yes - the pain went for 10 mins - then started to return "do you understand" was said - NO!! I said you f'ing bla bla get rid of the pain (actually, I sort of understand now)
ANYWAY getting back to the reincarnation thang - so I asked "who are you, are you GOD?" - the reply was "I am a sage" - I considered looking it up in my dictionary and was tapped heavily on my RIGHT knee as in do that. - it read- an extremely wise person.

I asked this sage some questions that night - one was "are we born into a family on reincarnation based on how we have conducted our life? a family we deserve?" - i was tapped heavily on my right knee - as in that's RIGHT.


So, to sum up I suppose - yes, go through life as a good atheist - be reborn as an atheist into a good atheist family. Go through life as a woteva and start believing in Hinduism - you may get born into that faith etc etc etc...

Kill and rape little children/kill for Allah - get born as a pig 666 yum yum

Atto, I appreciate you sharing such a personal and profound experience. It’s fascinating how you interpret these moments as evidence of karmic cycles and reincarnation, tied to how one conducts their life. While your belief system offers a compelling narrative about consequences and cosmic justice, it naturally diverges from the deterministic perspective I’ve been discussing.

From a deterministic standpoint, experiences like yours could be seen as the product of a complex web of influences—psychological, neurological, and cultural—all interacting to shape your perceptions and conclusions. That doesn’t diminish the personal significance of your experience, but it frames it within a causally determined universe.

Your belief in karmic reincarnation aligns with a kind of moral determinism, where actions ripple through future lives. It’s an interesting overlap with the deterministic view, though the mechanisms (spiritual vs. physical causality) differ. While I don’t share the spiritual framework, I can respect how it gives structure and meaning to your view of existence and accountability.

[attofishpi]

...well, it makes a lot more sense than standard religious crap - especially within Christianity - that we ALL get born into our first life (this one) and we are all judged equally when we die - upon that 1 life...(RIDICULOUS beyond comprehension - I direct that to Immanuel Can)

[Alexis Jacobi]

From a deterministic standpoint, experiences like yours could be seen as the product of a complex web of influences—psychological, neurological, and cultural—all interacting to shape your perceptions and conclusions.

You left out the mixological.

[BigMike]

So no, it’s not “business as usual”—at least not for those who internalize the implications. It’s the beginning of a long, deliberate shift toward a society that embraces truth, compassion, and rationality. What we build in its place is, ironically, up to us.

You're right in thinking that enough has been said about it. My view, to an extent, differs from yours in that I never underestimate human fallibility. If not expedient to the moment, humans will always short-circuit themselves in service to that moment. It's the most potent way to preempt the destiny he hopes to achieve.

For me the paradigm of free will relative to determinism is that they appear to be in collusion. Determinism is a process, fixed by laws, by which determinations are made in the sense that it can negate any number of prior resolves that process may have encountered. Determinism is in that sense, recursive, a battle against itself; it is what critiques itself before finalizing the outcome...a drama which can happen in a matter of seconds without our noticing it, resembling, in effect, a free will episode which endorses the illusion that WE have decided.

...anyway, it was an interesting conversation, one in which I completely agree as to its physical underpinning but less so as to its consequences in terms of any kind of enlightenment the human psyche will accept.

Dubious, I appreciate your thoughtful reflection on this. You’re absolutely right that human fallibility is a formidable force, one that has often undermined our loftiest aspirations. The interplay between determinism and what feels like free will—what you so aptly describe as "collusion"—is at the heart of our struggle to reconcile the physical laws governing us with our subjective experiences.

Your point about determinism being recursive, critiquing itself through processes that resemble free will, captures the nuance perfectly. From this perspective, every decision—whether it feels free or not—is a negotiation within the web of prior causes, constraints, and influences. The illusion of choice is not trivial; it’s a necessary part of how our minds navigate an overwhelmingly complex universe.

As for the consequences, you raise an important caution. Even if we recognize the deterministic nature of existence, the human psyche, with all its biases and emotional needs, may resist internalizing these truths. Enlightenment, if it comes, will likely be slow and uneven. Still, I hold out hope that embracing this understanding could inspire a more compassionate and rational approach to the challenges we face—one step at a time, as the deterministic web allows.

It’s been a fascinating conversation, and I deeply value the perspective you’ve brought to it.

[attofishpi]

From a deterministic standpoint, experiences like yours could be seen as the product of a complex web of influences—psychological, neurological, and cultural—all interacting to shape your perceptions and conclusions.

You left out the mixological.

..and thus, do you DO_U_BT ....Brian T's account of the REAL IT Y he was born into?

A major born point being Southampton - the vagina of UK between the rivers TEST and Itchen feeding into the SOL'ENTRY point (Solent)

(the white bit at the bottom centre - Isle of Wight)


Ancasta



ANCASTA

This star it shines upon
where it glistens still
where it feeds the soul a quest
to fulfil.
Enter the Test where the sol ent'ers
little child to question Wight.
Itchen to know this little mind
dispensed upon the earth rather blind.
Running through the chaos of time
knocked down and placed well out of line.
From here the child sees much more than they
and reluctant to return to their ridiculous fray.
So here it remains
here to stay
Why?
Why?
Y?
Well, let's take a punt
Cos it's shallow here
And the hEart of us
cares not.

[BigMike]

It’s truly astounding—and a bit disheartening—how some people cling to the conspiracy of free will while rejecting the foundation of reality itself: the laws of conservation. These laws, like those governing energy and momentum, are not abstract theories or philosophical musings; they are the bedrock of physics, tested and validated across countless disciplines. If you reject them, then you might as well reject the very idea of science. And yet, those who champion the myth of free will can’t even articulate what they think is wrong with these principles or how their alternative view holds any water.

Let’s get one thing straight: rejecting determinism isn’t just a failure of intellect—it’s a failure of courage. Sapere Aude—“dare to know.” But instead of daring to face the implications of reality, these people bury their heads in the comforting sands of ignorance. They prefer the illusion of freedom over the rigor of truth, clinging to the idea that they are somehow exempt from the laws that govern the universe.

What’s worse, this conspiracy of free will isn’t even coherent. If you can’t point to a flaw in the conservation laws, if you can’t identify where determinism supposedly breaks down, then you’re not engaging in a debate. You’re playing make-believe. You’re rejecting a compass while insisting you’re navigating just fine.

The belief in free will is nothing more than a comforting lie—an outdated superstition masquerading as self-empowerment. It’s easier to live in the fantasy that we are the authors of our own fate than to grapple with the truth that we are part of a vast, interconnected web of cause and effect. But that truth is precisely where meaning lies—not in the illusion of control, but in understanding our place in the grand machinery of the universe.

So to those who cling to free will, I ask: where is your evidence? Where is your reasoning? What is your alternative framework that explains the overwhelming evidence for causality and conservation? If you have none, then all you’re doing is shouting into the void, desperate to deny what you’re too afraid to confront.

The conspiracy of free will is a denial of courage, a refusal to engage with reality, and a slap in the face of reason. Those of us who accept determinism aren’t shackled by it—we’re liberated by understanding the true nature of existence. The rest? They remain enslaved to a comforting myth, too timid to know the truth.

[Skepdick]

It’s truly astounding—and a bit disheartening—how some people cling to the conspiracy of free will while rejecting the foundation of reality itself: the laws of conservation. These laws, like those governing energy and momentum, are not abstract theories or philosophical musings; they are the bedrock of physics, tested and validated across countless disciplines. If you reject them, then you might as well reject the very idea of science. And yet, those who champion the myth of free will can’t even articulate what they think is wrong with these principles or how their alternative view holds any water.

Let’s get one thing straight: rejecting determinism isn’t just a failure of intellect—it’s a failure of courage. Sapere Aude—“dare to know.” But instead of daring to face the implications of reality, these people bury their heads in the comforting sands of ignorance. They prefer the illusion of freedom over the rigor of truth, clinging to the idea that they are somehow exempt from the laws that govern the universe.

What’s worse, this conspiracy of free will isn’t even coherent. If you can’t point to a flaw in the conservation laws, if you can’t identify where determinism supposedly breaks down, then you’re not engaging in a debate. You’re playing make-believe. You’re rejecting a compass while insisting you’re navigating just fine.

The belief in free will is nothing more than a comforting lie—an outdated superstition masquerading as self-empowerment. It’s easier to live in the fantasy that we are the authors of our own fate than to grapple with the truth that we are part of a vast, interconnected web of cause and effect. But that truth is precisely where meaning lies—not in the illusion of control, but in understanding our place in the grand machinery of the universe.

So to those who cling to free will, I ask: where is your evidence? Where is your reasoning? What is your alternative framework that explains the overwhelming evidence for causality and conservation? If you have none, then all you’re doing is shouting into the void, desperate to deny what you’re too afraid to confront.

The conspiracy of free will is a denial of courage, a refusal to engage with reality, and a slap in the face of reason. Those of us who accept determinism aren’t shackled by it—we’re liberated by understanding the true nature of existence. The rest? They remain enslaved to a comforting myth, too timid to know the truth.

Yep... Rorty called it.

All human beings carry about a set of words which they employ to justify their actions, their beliefs, and their lives. These are the words in which we formulate praise of our friends and contempt for our enemies, our long-term projects, our deepest self-doubts and our highest hopes... I shall call these words a person's "final vocabulary". Those words are as far as he can go with language; beyond them is only helpless passivity or a resort to force. (Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity p. 73)

BigMike has chosen his Final Vocabulary. Too bad he's not using it to say anything of import.