Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

[Dubious]

I think we need a new concept here, spiritual determinism. When one's mediocre understanding of determinism is accompanied by feelings of spiritual ecstasy.

Don't know if you're serious or not, but it sounds a little bit nutmeg to me!

[Age]

I am not sure what is so hard to comprehend and understand about EVERY person has 'the ability to choose', or also known as 'free will', 'within some circles', as some might say, however, what EVERY person is able to choose FROM, exactly, was 'pre-determined', or also known as 'determinism', again 'within some circles'.

So, 'free will' AND 'determinism' BOTH co-exist, and work, together, in tandem, to create 'the world', or the 'actual life', in which 'we' end up living within.

So, every person has the ability to choose, but only from a select limited amount of choices, which absolutely absolutely ALL of them came from one's own 'past experiences', and what is CHOSEN, then 'determines' 'the future'.

Also, let 'us' not forget that both the 'religious' from the 'scientific faith' as well as from the 'theological faith' reject each other, while embracing the impossible.

[Age]

When you cherish determinism and it blossoms in your heart, it fosters love, kindness and compassion, it inspires you to become the best version of yourself that you can be.

But, if you can NOT, freely, 'choose' to become the best version of the Self, which 'you' can be, then you will just have to WAIT, until you are destined to be.

[Atla]

When you cherish determinism and it blossoms in your heart, it fosters love, kindness and compassion, it inspires you to become the best version of yourself that you can be.

Cower for safety between the iron thighs of the deterministic overlords you blithering peasant!!

Let go of your anger and open up your heart to a new age of joy and prosperity under the loving embrace of determinism.

[BigMike]

Nothing says insecurity quite like your endless bleating about your ignore list combined with your inability to do the actual ignoring.

It's the quality of your prose that is causing this particular vomit. You are at your very worst when you try to write an Obama speech.

Flash, it seems I’ve struck a nerve—or maybe just the wrong literary tone for your palate. I’ll leave the Obama speeches to Obama, but let’s not confuse disagreement with the merits of an idea for disdain over delivery. If you’re finding my prose hard to stomach, consider it an unintended contribution to your rigorous standards of critique.

We've covered the merits of your work extensively already, it's not really much of an issue and you'll be forgotten fairly quickly once you have us all on your prodigious ignore list and just bugger off to some other site to plug your ebook to yet another apathetic audience that probably won't share your elevated opinion of Big Mike's Big Ideas.

But that whole celebration of lost agency angle is silly, bordering on pseudo-religiosity. Your rhetorical stylings take the form of overcooked cheese.

Btw - who on my ignore list have I not ignored?

Are you gaslighting me? When you wrote "Your application, therefore, is duly approved." you were putting me on your ignore list were you not?

Flash, you’re absolutely correct, and I appreciate the reminder—consider it an administrative error. I’ve double-checked, and you’re officially on the list now. Thanks for your diligence in holding me accountable!

[BigMike]

Once we let go of the illusion of free will and accept determinism as the guiding principle of our existence, it’s natural to feel unmoored, as though meaning and purpose have evaporated. This can be unsettling because so much of what we believe about ourselves—our choices, morality, and aspirations—has been tied to the idea of free will. But determinism doesn’t strip life of meaning; rather, it reshapes how we view it and offers a different kind of clarity, even liberation.

Whether or not we believe in free will, it will not change any of our usual behavioral routines or social conditions. As always, it will be business as usual. The only event which can incisively modify our behavior is one of prolonged and intense trauma, compared to which negating free will is a mere formality since most people wouldn't give it the least regard in how their lives unfold.

In effect, the cancellation of free will does not offer any kind of metanoia in its wake. That which is more or less fixed and determined remains in spite of all our philosophic free will pondering.

Dubious, your response touches on an important reality: letting go of free will as an illusion doesn’t mean we suddenly overhaul our lives or society overnight. You're right that for many, this realization feels like a formality—something abstract, with little immediate impact on how they live or act. But where I differ is in the potential for this shift in understanding to spark something deeper, something transformative, over time.

Recognizing determinism isn’t about waking up and seeing the world change instantly. It’s about creating the possibility for a systemic, collective shift in how we approach morality, justice, and responsibility. When we understand that every action is causally linked to prior conditions—when cruelty, failure, and even brilliance are seen as the inevitable outcomes of that chain—we begin to see the futility of blame and retribution. The question then becomes: what do we do with this knowledge?

The answer lies in the very thing you highlight: trauma as a catalyst for change. If enough people are willing to step back and truly reckon with the harm perpetuated by outdated notions of personal moral responsibility—particularly within systems like criminal justice and education—then the seeds of transformation are planted. Slowly, these ideas can ripple outward, shaping policies, laws, and societal norms.

In that sense, determinism is like a mirror. It forces us to confront not just the limitations of human agency, but also the immense potential of systems built on understanding and empathy instead of blame and cruelty. Will everyone "get it"? Of course not. But for those who do, the choice becomes clear: do we let this knowledge sit idly, or do we act within the deterministic web to create something better?

So no, it’s not “business as usual”—at least not for those who internalize the implications. It’s the beginning of a long, deliberate shift toward a society that embraces truth, compassion, and rationality. What we build in its place is, ironically, up to us.

[BigMike]

As the discussion here seems to be winding down—aside from a couple of newcomers excitedly grappling with the concept of infinity—I think it’s time to pivot. From my perspective, the forum has become much more productive now that most of the science deniers have faded into the background. My consistent focus on conservation laws, and by extension determinism, has been about laying the groundwork for tackling the central question of this topic.

For those who understand and accept reality—who grasp what is and isn’t true—the lingering questions might now be: So what? What’s next? Is that all there is? It feels like the right moment to turn to those questions and explore the implications: the absence of free will, the lack of moral responsibility, and what that all means for us. These answers don’t come from the laws of nature; they’re ours to shape.

The choice before us—whether to continue perpetuating systemic cruelty or to rise above our primal instincts and seek a better way—depends entirely on the intellectual honesty and collaborative capacity of those who truly "get it." Whether we can agree on a path forward, and what that path might be, is the challenge that remains.

[accelafine]

'The 'choice' before us'?? Itsn't that the whole point? That there isn't one?

[BigMike]

'The 'choice' before us'?? Itsn't that the whole point? That there isn't one?

Accelafine, you’re absolutely right to question the concept of "choice" in a deterministic framework—it seems contradictory on the surface. But here’s the nuance: while we don’t have "free" choices independent of causality, the processes leading to decisions are still real and consequential. What we call "choice" is simply the outcome of complex interactions between internal and external influences. It feels like choice because we’re part of the causal process, not outside of it.

Here’s where it gets interesting: we are all part of each other’s external influences. Just as your past experiences, environment, and biology shape your thoughts and actions, the words and actions of others ripple through the web of causality, influencing those around them. This interconnectedness is not unlike the concept of six degrees of separation—each person is linked to everyone else through a chain of interactions.

When I express an idea here, for instance, that idea enters your mental sphere as one of the countless influences that shape your next thought, feeling, or decision. It’s not that you freely choose to accept or reject it, but that it becomes one of the many factors interacting within your mind. Similarly, your response becomes part of my causal web, shaping how I refine or articulate my own thoughts.

This interplay means that while no one has "free will" in the traditional sense, our actions still matter. The way we engage with each other determines the collective trajectory of our society. By consciously aiming to reduce harm, foster understanding, or promote empathy, we influence the deterministic web in ways that can lead to better outcomes—not through "choice," but through causally inevitable cooperation and interaction.

So, no, the "choice" isn’t truly free. But the outcome of these interconnected influences—what we call "our choice"—can still make a profound difference in shaping the future.

[FlashDangerpants]

When you cherish determinism and it blossoms in your heart, it fosters love, kindness and compassion, it inspires you to become the best version of yourself that you can be.

Cower for safety between the iron thighs of the deterministic overlords you blithering peasant!!

Let go of your anger and open up your heart to a new age of joy and prosperity under the loving embrace of determinism.

I see it! I see the light! The instant and permanent, but fragile and slow, both super and dooper.... Pooper indeed, and scooper to boot. A TRUTH almost beyond my capacity to squeal excitedly at.

But it is too late, I am on the outs, there is no way back into the cult for me now

Only the True Believers of science can bask in the warmth of Big Mike's Big Afterglow.

[attofishpi]

For those who understand and accept reality—who grasp what is and isn’t true—the lingering questions might now be: So what? What’s next? Is that all there is? It feels like the right moment to turn to those questions and explore the implications: the absence of free will, the lack of moral responsibility, and what that all means for us. These answers don’t come from the laws of nature; they’re ours to shape.

Mike, as much as I like you as a fairly fair debater upon this forum that is clearly wrong about what shape your version of the deterministic universe has formed you...basically like a pointless piece of poo..it doth indeed sadden me.

[accelafine]

For those who understand and accept reality—who grasp what is and isn’t true—the lingering questions might now be: So what? What’s next? Is that all there is? It feels like the right moment to turn to those questions and explore the implications: the absence of free will, the lack of moral responsibility, and what that all means for us. These answers don’t come from the laws of nature; they’re ours to shape.

Mike, as much as I like you as a fairly fair debater upon this forum that is clearly wrong about what shape your version of the deterministic universe has formed you...basically like a pointless piece of poo..it doth indeed sadden me.

Instead of giving the middle finger do you realise that Brian only looks as if he's pointing to the previous post?

[attofishpi]

For those who understand and accept reality—who grasp what is and isn’t true—the lingering questions might now be: So what? What’s next? Is that all there is? It feels like the right moment to turn to those questions and explore the implications: the absence of free will, the lack of moral responsibility, and what that all means for us. These answers don’t come from the laws of nature; they’re ours to shape.

Mike, as much as I like you as a fairly fair debater upon this forum that is clearly wrong about what shape your version of the deterministic universe has formed you...basically like a pointless piece of poo..it doth indeed sadden me.

Instead of giving the middle finger do you realise that Brian only looks as if he's pointing to the previous post?

OMG woman, how many times have I told you not to eat any ol' cheese you find when cleaning under the cooker?

[BigMike]

For those who understand and accept reality—who grasp what is and isn’t true—the lingering questions might now be: So what? What’s next? Is that all there is? It feels like the right moment to turn to those questions and explore the implications: the absence of free will, the lack of moral responsibility, and what that all means for us. These answers don’t come from the laws of nature; they’re ours to shape.

Mike, as much as I like you as a fairly fair debater upon this forum that is clearly wrong about what shape your version of the deterministic universe has formed you...basically like a pointless piece of poo..it doth indeed sadden me.

Atto, your sentiment is noted, but let’s not conflate determinism with a loss of meaning or purpose. The deterministic nature of the universe doesn’t render us “pointless”—it simply shifts where we look for value and understanding. The real tragedy lies not in determinism, but in clinging to the myth of free will, which is less a comforting illusion and more a systemic conspiracy to preserve outdated ideas of moral responsibility and blame.

The idea of free will serves as a convenient narrative that societies have perpetuated to justify punitive systems and hierarchies. It reinforces the belief that individuals are entirely self-made, ignoring the web of external influences that shape every thought and action. By unraveling this myth, we can begin to address systemic cruelty and injustice, not with blame, but with understanding and a focus on prevention and rehabilitation.

The deterministic framework doesn’t strip us of agency—it redefines it. Agency, under determinism, is the cumulative result of all the causal factors acting upon us and through us. Our interactions, discussions, and actions still ripple outward, shaping the world. Recognizing that doesn’t render us powerless; it gives us clarity about how change happens—not through some abstract “freedom,” but through understanding and working with the deterministic web we’re all part of.

So, no, this isn’t about seeing ourselves as “pointless.” It’s about rejecting the conspiracy of free will and embracing a more honest, compassionate, and ultimately effective way of engaging with the world.

[attofishpi]

..nah mate - since knowing GOD to exist for the past 27 years - having my arse kicked by the Jew that I sometimes think didn't bother to convert to Christianity - it's apparent that this entity wouldn't have bothered with 10 commandments if we don't make decisions based on our decisions based on our decisions as we reincarnate through time karmically based on our decisions etc..