Why Do the Religious Reject Science While Embracing the Impossible?

[Gary Childress]

What was claimed (by me)is that the $5 being put there is part of the cause of her deciding to borrow 3 of it.

That doesn't work. It doesn't "cause" her to make any choice.

I didn't say it did. I also never suggested 'compel'. There's still a choice to be made, and whether it is free or not is 1) dependent on definitions and how things really are, and 2) irrelevant to the point that the $5 being there is part of the cause of the decision. More clearly illustrated in the street crossing example, the traffic is presumably a significant part of the cause of whenever the person freely (or not) decides to make the crossing. At no point is the person compelled to not step in front of the bus, or to cross just because there's a gap in the traffic. One does not cross the street via initiating cause (with no prior cause). That would result in a free willed corpse.

I guess what interests me is whether a "free willed corpse" is possible given the condition that conservation laws of physics are the case.

[accelafine]

If it is an indisputable fact that everything is pre-determined--as BigMike seems to postulate--then what? Does that change ANYTHING about us? And if it does change something about us, what exactly does it change?

Talk about absurd debates...

It actually proves that 'kristian morality' is a load of bollocks and that it has no effect on anything. Most people manage to behave themselves and the ones who don't are going to do what they do regardless.

[Gary Childress]

If it is an indisputable fact that everything is pre-determined--as BigMike seems to postulate--then what? Does that change ANYTHING about us? And if it does change something about us, what exactly does it change?

Talk about absurd debates...

It actually proves that 'kristian morality' is a load of bollocks and that it has no effect on anything.

That's a very interesting claim. But is it true?

How does determinism undermine Christian morality? I believe the Calvinists were a Christian sect that believed in determinism, that our fates are predetermined and that there is nothing a person can in fact do to alter their fate of either being accepted into heaven or not being accepted into heaven. Somehow the Calvinists saw themselves as "Christian" in spite of a belief in determinism.

[accelafine]

If it is an indisputable fact that everything is pre-determined--as BigMike seems to postulate--then what? Does that change ANYTHING about us? And if it does change something about us, what exactly does it change?

Talk about absurd debates...

It actually proves that 'kristian morality' is a load of bollocks and that it has no effect on anything.

That's a very interesting claim. But is it true?

How does determinism undermine Christian morality? I believe the Calvinists were a Christian sect that believed in determinism, that our fates are predetermined and that there is nothing a person can in fact do to alter their fate of either being accepted into heaven or not being accepted into heaven. Somehow the Calvinists saw themselves as "Christian" in spite of a belief in determinism.

The science says it. It's not MY claim.

[attofishpi]

Atto, your argument misinterprets quantum uncertainty and its implications for determinism. Quantum uncertainty, as described by Heisenberg's principle, states that we cannot simultaneously know the exact position and momentum of subatomic particles with absolute precision. This does not mean that those particles lack specific positions and momenta—only that our ability to measure them is limited. The uncertainty is epistemic (about what we can know), not necessarily ontological (about what exists).

Now, addressing your points:

A. If the Big Bang and all its conditions were perfectly identical, the universe would unfold exactly the same way. Even quantum uncertainty would originate from the same initial conditions. The "randomness" we observe arises from our inability to measure or predict certain outcomes, not because they are causeless. Quantum mechanics operates within a deterministic framework at the level of fundamental laws.

B. The divergence you refer to in the Boony’s Room thought experiment would occur only if quantum states are allowed to vary. In a truly identical scenario, with every particle and quantum state precisely recreated, even quantum randomness would follow the same probabilistic rules as before, leading to identical outcomes. Divergence happens only when quantum states differ across iterations, which does not apply in a perfectly identical scenario.

You’re conflating unpredictability (our limited ability to calculate outcomes) with indeterminism (events lacking causes). If you want to argue against hard determinism, you need to show that quantum effects introduce genuine causeless events and that those events somehow override the brain’s physical processes to create "will." So far, quantum mechanics provides no evidence for causeless events overriding determinism in any meaningful way. Conservation laws remain valid, and determinism stands unshaken.

Mike, do you think I can't tell when someone is attempting to blow smoke up my arse?

MY Point 1. & 2. are challenging the SAME PREMISE of hard determinism. You cannot on the one hand have identical David Boons diverging their decision-making process and indeed their actions in Point 2. while still insisting that if another identical instance of Big Bang were to occur that this conversation would again exist.

Thus U R insisting within:-

Point 1. there is no divergence due to ALL conditions being identical ALL the time (thus no "random quantum effects").
Point 2. the two David Boons diverge because of "random quantum effects".

AGAIN - which is it? You cannot blow smoke up my arse Mike and insist you are correct on BOTH point 1 & 2. !!

Atto, your insistence that I'm contradicting myself betrays your misunderstanding of both quantum mechanics and determinism. Let me clarify again.

In Point 1, the identical re-creation of the Big Bang assumes not just identical macroscopic conditions but also identical quantum states. If this happens, the universe—including this conversation—would play out exactly the same way because even quantum events, which follow probabilistic rules, would be governed by the same initial conditions and thus yield identical outcomes.

Since when has anything of probability yielded identical outcomes - not often dependent on parameters. The more the parameters the more unlikely the identical outcome.

Thus.

This thread and every chat within it is extremely unlikely in any Big Bang repeat instance and any argument from the likes of you and other "hard" determinists is ridiculous beyond compare.

In Point 2, the divergence in Boony’s Room occurs only if quantum states are allowed to vary. Quantum effects can cause divergence if the states aren’t perfectly replicated or if the system evolves with indeterminate variables. However, this variability arises because quantum states were not explicitly identical in that scenario.

Yet NOW U R insisting that Quantum states will remain identical if the same Big Bang occurred again. Through TIME quantum states change - you admitted that originally.

You’re conflating two different situations: one where conditions, including quantum states, are perfectly identical (Big Bang scenario), and one where quantum variations exist (Boony's Room). In a truly identical scenario, there would be no divergence—neither in David Boon nor in this conversation—because quantum “randomness” would be dictated by the exact same probabilities as before.

Probability dictates uncertainty, (non-determinism) - yet where the massive amounts of improbability that could be considered since a Big Bang repeat, a hard determinist as yourself will not yield to the obvious --> that hard determinism is BOLLOCKS.

[Gary Childress]

It actually proves that 'kristian morality' is a load of bollocks and that it has no effect on anything.

That's a very interesting claim. But is it true?

How does determinism undermine Christian morality? I believe the Calvinists were a Christian sect that believed in determinism, that our fates are predetermined and that there is nothing a person can in fact do to alter their fate of either being accepted into heaven or not being accepted into heaven. Somehow the Calvinists saw themselves as "Christian" in spite of a belief in determinism.

The science says it. It's not MY claim.

Is it true, though, that Christian morality is undermined by determinism?

And if so, what about Christian morality is not compatible with determinism?

I mean, I can kind of see where "accepting Christ as one's 'savior'" would perhaps be undermined if a person is pre-determined in whether or not they "accept Christ". But who knows? Maybe God is just the sort of God that would create some people to be screwed over in their end by design. I mean, I kind of think oblivion would be preferable to being forever condemned by a God who doesn't approve of me. So maybe Christians are a different kind of people from me in that they are OK with potentially being condemned by a God who doesn't approve of them. Or maybe that's the trick. If you are OK with the possibility of being condemned by God, then you are "saved" and not condemned.

Anyway, if it were proven beyond possible doubt to IC that the world was deterministic, then I'm sure IC would figure out a way to make Christianity compatible with determinism. If I were him, I probably would. I mean, who wants to admit to wasting their whole life reading a religious book that turned out to be fundamentally flawed? It would be like me confessing that what I've studied of philosophy has done nothing to improve me. I mean, I actually think that's possible. However, I can't see IC thinking that studying the Bible has had no fundamental special benefit. It seems like it would be unacceptable to him.

[attofishpi]

fukin moron. DEFINE A CHRISTIAN...and I'LL DEFINE AN ATHEIST. DUH!!

[Gary Childress]

fukin moron. DEFINE A CHRISTIAN...and I'LL DEFINE AN ATHEIST. DUH!!

Who are you responding to, Atto? Are you responding to me or Accelafine?

[accelafine]

That's a very interesting claim. But is it true?

How does determinism undermine Christian morality? I believe the Calvinists were a Christian sect that believed in determinism, that our fates are predetermined and that there is nothing a person can in fact do to alter their fate of either being accepted into heaven or not being accepted into heaven. Somehow the Calvinists saw themselves as "Christian" in spite of a belief in determinism.

The science says it. It's not MY claim.

Is it true, though, that Christian morality is undermined by determinism?

And if so, what about Christian morality is not compatible with determinism?

I mean, I can kind of see where "accepting Christ as one's 'savior'" would perhaps be undermined if a person is pre-determined in whether or not they "accept Christ". But who knows? Maybe God is just the sort of God that would create some people to be screwed over in their end by design. I mean, I kind of think oblivion would be preferable to being forever condemned by a God who doesn't approve of me. So maybe Christians are a different kind of people from me in that they are OK with potentially being condemned by a God who doesn't approve of them. Or maybe that's the trick. If you are OK with the possibility of being condemned by God, then you are "saved" and not condemned.

Anyway, if it were proven beyond possible doubt to IC that the world was deterministic, then I'm sure IC would figure out a way to make Christianity compatible with determinism. If I were him, I probably would. I mean, who wants to admit to wasting their whole life reading a religious book that turned out to be fundamentally flawed? It would be like me confessing that what I've studied of philosophy has done nothing to improve me. I mean, I actually think that's possible. However, I can't see IC thinking that studying the Bible has had no fundamental special benefit. It seems like it would be unacceptable to him.

If he's even read it Of course they've wasted their time. Even if we had this 'free will' that they like to bang on about, 'kristian morality' would still be bollocks. I mean FFS. Who cares if someone fancies his neighbour's wife? Imagine that being near the top of the list of WORST and MOST IMMORAL acts a human could possibly do? Talk about fucked up priorities.

According to Mr Bot, this is Jebus Krist's greatest 'quote': ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment" (Matthew 6:25) FFS.

Here's another one: ''Do not judge or you too will be judged" (Matthew 7:1). Oh my, kristians are renowned for following THAT one...

[attofishpi]

Gazza, I was talking to U.

this is Jebus Krist's greatest 'quote': ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment" (Matthew 6:25) FFS.

Yes, and GOD did more than crucify me (personally) ...and still I understand the reasoning Y 4 love.

[accelafine]

What does 'don't judge' mean anyway? Everyone 'judge's' others all the time. It's a safety mechanism.

[attofishpi]

What does 'don't judge' mean anyway? Everyone 'judge's' others all the time. It's a safety mechanism.

..it always resonates with the reckoning.

I hate it when people confess their murders or I hear of a "friend" that has done disgusting things...because I have my days of reckoning and I wouldn't wish that on ne1 ...judging others rather than oneself.

GOD IS EVIL &



GOOD.

[Gary Childress]

Gazza, I was talking to U.

this is Jebus Krist's greatest 'quote': ''You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment" (Matthew 6:25) FFS.

Yes, and GOD did more than crucify me (personally) ...and still I understand the reasoning Y 4 love.

Have you been drinking again, or would you like me to feel bad because you apparently think I'm a "moron"? I mean, if I'm a "moron" what does that make you?

[attofishpi]

..got about 4 beers and a bottle of Chardonnay left for din dins..(after 6 Italian Peronis)



..doesnt change the fact that GOD crucified me/

[Gary Childress]

..got about 4 beers and a bottle of Chardonnay left for din dins..(after 6 Italian Peronis)



..doesnt change the fact that GOD crucified me/

I have felt extreme torment at times when I was scared to the point of insanity. However, doctors have given me medicine to remove the visions I was having and it seems to largely work. Still, I have bad thoughts about my future and fear death and stuff like that.

I suppose it could be because of God that I had those thoughts. In a sense it could be God telling me to change. But I'm not sure what changes God would want me to make. I don't feel like I have done anything substantially wrong, especially when compared to murderers and warmongers who don't seem to be paralyzed with fear like that. I mean, why would God torment me into paralysis but seemingly let people who are guilty of murder go unscathed in life? It seems counter intuitive to me.