Reincarnation is proof of mind-body duality

[seeds]

...The concept of reincarnation, which was born as part of the original philosophy of Tantric Yoga, is an absolutely rational concept.

A current analogy allows us to understand it well: life, if we see it as a highway, in which only cars with their drivers can be considered living beings, when for some reason the driver changes vehicles and uses another, it is the equivalent of dying and reincarnating. And the driver-vehicle unit is a very apt analogy because that is the reality of our lives, we are pseudo-conscious minds (the unconscious levels are very deep, much deeper than Freud could imagine), that express our unconscious tendencies, in an evolutionary and progressive way, changing the means of expression... we come from the stones, and we have reached the human level, although some can return (by desire, obviously), to evolutionarily previous levels...

It seems to me a genius of nature to have created a mind-matter duality.

I suggest the fact that it is impossible for scientists to access and measure, not only the mind, but especially the "thinker" of thoughts and "dreamer" of dreams, is plenty enough proof of the mind/matter duality.

However, that's not my reason for chiming in here, for I want to address the issue of reincarnation.

Now I would never insist that reincarnation is absolutely impossible, however, a couple of years ago, in an effort to question its plausibility, I offered up a thought experiment that dealt with population growth and the problem it posed for the concept of reincarnation.

So, if you can offer a logical explanation for the three questions that I present at the end of the experiment, then I'm listening.

Here's the thought experiment as it applied to the planet two years ago...

According to some Googled statistics, there are approximately 3,904,727,342 females on the planet at this present moment (let's round that up to 4 billion).

So (and for the sake of this thought experiment), let's assume that 2 billion of those females are able the bear children right now.

Now, imagine giving all of those two billion females fertility drugs to where they each become pregnant with quintuplets (5 babies)...



In which case, it is plausible that in nine months from now (in 2023), 10 billion new babies will be born, thus increasing the earth's human population to around 18 billion.

Now, let's imagine that those 10 billion new babies (via some DNA manipulating shenanigans) were all females.

With that in mind, let's move ahead about 18 years (to around 2040/41) and repeat the process of giving all 10 billion of those now 18-year-old females fertility drugs causing them too to give birth to quintuplets.

This, of course, means that in around 2041, 50 billion new humans (again, all females as per this thought experiment) will be added to the population.

So, in 2041 we now have approximately 60 billion females on the planet to which we can again repeat the fertility inducing process in another 18 years, at which time...

(somewhere around 2060/61, to be exact - a mere 38 years from now)

...the population could rise to 360 billion humans.

Now, of course, this is not going to happen (and Thomas Malthus is spinning in his grave right now), but the point is that it's plausible in thought form.

Okay then, with the above in mind, the question is, where are those approximately 352 billion human souls hanging out right now in 2022?

And furthermore, according to Wiki:

In the 40-plus years of his life after enlightenment, Gautama Buddha is said to have recounted almost 554 past life stories, (called Jataka tales) of his prior existences.

In which case, why would the Buddha (or any other human, for that matter) be allowed to hog-up so many earthly bodies in consecutive (almost immediate) incarnations when, according to my wild (yet plausible) thought experiment, there could be a near infinity of other souls who also need those bodies in order to advance?

And lastly,...

...why in the world would something that a group of mad genetic scientists do here on earth have such a profound and instantaneous impact on what that vast number of other souls are doing in that higher context of reality?...



Cartoon captions:

Bardo Boy: "What do you mean I have got to go back right away?...I just got here!"

Dispatcher of Souls: "There's no time to argue! The Earth's population is going to double in a few years, and we're out of souls up here. I need six billion right now just to keep up! By the way, you have 10 seconds..."

Bardo Boy: "But I haven't even reflected on my last incarnation!"

Dispatcher of Souls: "...6 - 5 - 4..."

Bardo Boy: "Oh brother!...now what?"

_______

_______

[Walker]

I'm sorry to contradict you: the concept of resurrection is very clear, to resume "post mortem" the same body, not a different body... a person who is clinically dead is resurrected.

Don't worry, you haven't, even though that's apparently your need.

The same body is how one gets the same self-concept and same self-identity, which is not reincarnation, but rather a resurrection.

[Walker]

In the name of Moral Superiority through Superior Consumption …

The Bud-Lite brand-killer reincarnates to kill another brand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLtFIrqhfng

[Walker]

_______

The finite amount of soul energy available to manifest as form will simply be divvied up amongst the bodies that manage to survive gestation, however many that is, and the souls of those forms that don't survive go back into the soul pool. Paradox resolved.

[Walker]

(continued)


As a comfort to abortionists, perhaps the little pre-born abortions never had a soul and if so, rationality indicates that such a situation could be caused by the pre-determination of individual life spans. That accounting procedure of pre-determination could have been relegated to process by God and for one reason or another, in such a process of biological God relegation on auto-pilot, scientists attempt to understand the why of abortion by analyzing after the fact.

This allows them the licensed authority to declare that past performance is an indication of future results, an authority that is disclaimed when investments are on the line, which gets losing politicians off the hook for contributions.

Some traditions say that an individual number of breaths are pre-allotted to each individual. This means that if life is to burn like a candle and not a bonfire then proceed accordingly, which is maybe the realization that caused Gump to dump the mindless jogging craze out there in Monument Valley and say, I’m tired. He must have had the sense that he was mindlessly using up his allotment of breaths.

The advantages of a bonfire life have been extolled in culture with rock stars who quickly burn out. There are less boring than a bonfire advantages to a candle. For example, it’s likely that parts of the KJV of The Holy Bible were divinely transcribed by candle-lit scribes toiling throughout the night because of a deadline imposed by a Shakespearean supervisor.

[Walker]

In which case, why would the Buddha (or any other human, for that matter) be allowed to hog-up so many earthly bodies in consecutive (almost immediate) incarnations when, according to my wild (yet plausible) thought experiment, there could be a near infinity of other souls who also need those bodies in order to advance?

The Buddhist reasoning for hogging up is simply that a denizen of a lower realm benefits from any association with a denizen of a higher realm. Humans benefit from association with an earthly Buddha, as do all creatures.

[margii]

...The concept of reincarnation, which was born as part of the original philosophy of Tantric Yoga, is an absolutely rational concept.

A current analogy allows us to understand it well: life, if we see it as a highway, in which only cars with their drivers can be considered living beings, when for some reason the driver changes vehicles and uses another, it is the equivalent of dying and reincarnating. And the driver-vehicle unit is a very apt analogy because that is the reality of our lives, we are pseudo-conscious minds (the unconscious levels are very deep, much deeper than Freud could imagine), that express our unconscious tendencies, in an evolutionary and progressive way, changing the means of expression... we come from the stones, and we have reached the human level, although some can return (by desire, obviously), to evolutionarily previous levels...

It seems to me a genius of nature to have created a mind-matter duality.

I suggest the fact that it is impossible for scientists to access and measure, not only the mind, but especially the "thinker" of thoughts and "dreamer" of dreams, is plenty enough proof of the mind/matter duality.

However, that's not my reason for chiming in here, for I want to address the issue of reincarnation.

Now I would never insist that reincarnation is absolutely impossible, however, a couple of years ago, in an effort to question its plausibility, I offered up a thought experiment that dealt with population growth and the problem it posed for the concept of reincarnation.

So, if you can offer a logical explanation for the three questions that I present at the end of the experiment, then I'm listening.

Dear

I think it is excellent that you (and others) try to understand the subject of reincarnation in all its aspects.

First, we cannot materially define what the mind is, we only "feel" as a differential element that our mind is something that goes beyond the body... nothing happens to the body when someone receives an insult, but there is something material that is affected, and this is an indication that the mind is something different from the body. When someone suffers emotionally, or at a deeper sentimental level, it is not the matter that suffers... in fact, psychiatric medications do not affect the feeling itself, but rather block in some way the mind-body connection, like when someone sleeps and for this reason their effects are not mental, but organic.

Our conscious mind is not a deep state, it is a very superficial psychic state, which with an anesthetic or when we sleep, is shown to disappear... our mind is "asleep" because our conscious mind is limited, but our unconscious mind is a great mystery for humanity, so it is clear that it is difficult to explain what the mind is in its complete structure.

And since the expression of our conscious mind depends on several factors external to the mind, including the brain, hormones and relationships with the external world, we are not aware of our true mind, the unconscious one. And when we reincarnate, our main mind, the unconscious one, is the one we express again, and for this reason it is normal that we forget (not absolutely, we all remember, although very vaguely, past lives...) most of what we have experienced in our conscious states, in past lives.

Regarding the issue of population growth, the explanation is very simple... biological evolution is the counterpart of another evolution that we still do not know today, the mental one.

The mind does not exist exclusively in humans, it exists in .... EVERYTHING... In the same way that biological life comes from stones, water, etc., the mind is evolving from a primitive state of non-biological life to a psychic development that we call the human mind.

When humans did not exist, millions of years ago, we were all animals or plants or stones... our psyche is what led to biological evolution, for this reason no one can explain biologically the meaning of the evolution of the species.

Beyond the fact that I believe that Darwin was a genius, his interpretation was framed within the limited materialistic knowledge of those years... and he believed, he saw in chance - which is non-existent, chance not exist, all is causal-, the cause of evolution and adaptation... in the far future we will understand with more depth that it is the mind, immaterial, that evolves and induces the evolutionary changes of the Universe...

Life did not arise by chance. It has recently been discovered that nucleotides (RNA nucleotides) have a natural capacity to polymerize, which has revolutionized biology... however, for millions of years there was no biological life, despite the existence of nucleotides... why? Because the mind had not evolved enough to induce the development of life... When the mind grew from the non-biological material world, when minds began to form in their individuality, in the need to express changes, feelings, etc., biological life was born, and the molecules that wandered without being used, began to organize and developed the vehicle - the biological bodies - of that new minds, in what we call the origin of life...

Humanity will continue to grow in number because more and more minds that are today incarnated as animals - maybe also vegetables and stones- will reincarnate as humans...

[seeds]

Regarding the issue of population growth, the explanation is very simple... biological evolution is the counterpart of another evolution that we still do not know today, the mental one.

I can agree with the mental evolution part.

However, that doesn't really answer my...

(still in thought-experiment mode)

...question that if, say, there were a hundred billion human females on the planet - all pregnant and primed to each give birth to quintuplets - then where are the 500 billion human souls hanging out just prior to being "forced"...

(by reason of the shenanigans of fertility doctors and their drugs here on earth)

...to enter into a human body?

And in regard to your point about the evolution of mind, have you ever considered the possibility that life and mind have been evolving as far back as eternity itself? And that the Creator of this universe...

(with the universe being the literal mind of said Creator)

...is simply the explicit example of the absolute zenith to which mind has been able to evolve in the context of eternity?

Can you not imagine that if mind literally had "forever" in which to evolve into higher and higher forms of being, that it could eventually evolve into a singular, living (incorporeal) consciousness (a self-aware "I Am-ness"), who is capable of creating the unfathomable order of a hundred billion galaxies of suns and planets out of the living mental fabric of its very own being?

The mind does not exist exclusively in humans, it exists in .... EVERYTHING...

Yes!

However, I suggest that it is more accurate to think that it is the "essence of life" that exists in everything, not mind, for mind seems to be more of an epiphenomenal (emergent) property of the essence (or "energy") of life.

Indeed, because I (among others such as B. Berkeley, for example) am suggesting that the universe is the mind of a higher consciousness,...

(again, the result of life and mind having had a literal eternity to evolve into such a level of Being)

...it therefore implies that everything throughout the entire universe...

(from the fusion cores of the stars, right down to the plastic keyboard I am typing this reply on)

...is all literally alive, for it is all thoroughly imbued (saturated) with the Creator's own living essence.

And that would be in the exact same way that your very own thoughts and dreams are imbued with your own living essence.

The point is that not only am I agreeing with your assertion that mind (life) "...exists in .... EVERYTHING...", I am also providing a speculative explanation as to how and why your assertion could be true.

When humans did not exist, millions of years ago, we were all animals or plants or stones... our psyche is what led to biological evolution, for this reason no one can explain biologically the meaning of the evolution of the species.

Our non-existent "psyche" didn't lead to the evolution of anything.

No, it was the fact that this unthinkably ordered (and stable) setting...



...was in place that led to quite the opposite of what you seem to be suggesting.

We're talking about a pre-created setting that came fully equipped with every possible ingredient necessary to allow biological evolution to lead to the manifestation of our psyches (i.e., the awakening of our souls into existence), and not the other way around as, again, you seem to be suggesting.

Beyond the fact that I believe that Darwin was a genius, his interpretation was framed within the limited materialistic knowledge of those years... and he believed, he saw in chance - which is non-existent, chance not exist, all is causal-, the cause of evolution and adaptation... in the far future we will understand with more depth that it is the mind, immaterial, that evolves and induces the evolutionary changes of the Universe...

Yes, mind is what guides the processes.

However, might I suggest that you need to be open to the idea that there exists a level of (self-aware) mind and consciousness that extends as far above our human minds as human minds extend above amoebas.

You need to make room for that possibility, otherwise, you seem to be implying that some nebulous form of the word "mind" was somehow able to take hold of the fabric of reality and willfully shape it into, again, this fully-equipped setting...



...without any indication of what aspect or feature of what you are calling "mind" was able to perform such a feat.

In other words, you seem to be promoting a version of "Pantheism" which has no central intelligence presiding over the universe, which, in turn, offers no explanation as to how the mechanistic order of the universe came about.

And that, in my mind, invokes the "chance" hypothesis.

Now I could be misinterpreting your stance but, again, no, it is simply not logical for you to imply that, way back in the distant past, our nonexistent psyches - by reason of their eventual existence - were somehow able to reach into the future of the raw essence of reality (btw, where did that come from?) and somehow "induce" it to take on the necessary shapes and conditions that would then make the manifestation of our ultimate psyches possible.

Now of course it is quite possible that our minds/souls are comprised of the general and shared life essence that animated the dinosaurs and all of the other creatures that preceded us. Indeed, that actually makes sense.

However, all I am suggesting is that there is something much higher than us that has set the teleological trajectory and goal of the universe.

Life did not arise by chance. It has recently been discovered that nucleotides (RNA nucleotides) have a natural capacity to polymerize,...

Not only that, but according to Google's AI Overview:

RNA is responsible for protein synthesis, specifically by carrying the genetic information from DNA to the ribosomes where the protein is actually assembled, with the primary type of RNA involved being messenger RNA (mRNA) which carries the protein blueprint...RNA acts as the intermediary molecule that translates the genetic code from DNA into functional proteins.

And by "functional proteins," it means the assembly of proteins into things such as this...



I mean, just try to imagine what is involved, not only in the creation of the specific proteins themselves from an infinitesimal "blueprint" stored in the DNA molecule,...

...but of the ultra-precise stitching together of the proteins that differentiate the colorful blue iris from the clear lens of the pupil - all powered by a conveniently supplied, perfect source of light, heat, and energy (the sun).

Wouldn't you agree that that's pretty amazing of something that, according to hardcore materialists, arose from sheer chance? -- Ridiculous!

I suggest that, in truth, "blueprints" that code for the manifestation of living beings on this planet and are stored in infinitesimal molecules of what we call "DNA," is simply a glimpse of the creative power of a mind that, again, ascends as far above us humans in scope and consciousness as we humans ascend above amoebas or flies.
_______

[margii]

Regarding the issue of population growth, the explanation is very simple... biological evolution is the counterpart of another evolution that we still do not know today, the mental one.

I can agree with the mental evolution part.

However, that doesn't really answer my...

(still in thought-experiment mode)

...question that if, say, there were a hundred billion human females on the planet - all pregnant and primed to each give birth to quintuplets - then where are the 500 billion human souls hanging out just prior to being "forced"...

(by reason of the shenanigans of fertility doctors and their drugs here on earth)

...to enter into a human body?

And in regard to your point about the evolution of mind, have you ever considered the possibility that life and mind have been evolving as far back as eternity itself? And that the Creator of this universe...

(with the universe being the literal mind of said Creator)

...is simply the explicit example of the absolute zenith to which mind has been able to evolve in the context of eternity?

....
_______

Sorry, I work a lot and I don't always have time to read everything and have a conversation.

I'll tell you what I think about the first thing you ask.

No one is forced to be born, we are all born according to our tendencies (this can only be explained in the philosophy of true tantra yoga, today Ananda Marga, with the concept of samskara... everything happens for a reason, nothing is by chance). On the other hand, there are hundreds or thousands of millions of minds that are not reincarnating, that are in a potential state to express themselves, when the conditions are right... when quintuplets are born, it is because these 5 minds have tendencies in common to express them in this life... as simple as this. The human, whether he/she does something good or bad, is always allowed by the nature that governs everything (in Sanskrit prakriti or shakti).

Second, the creator is absolute, we cannot think about him.

And third, nothing in the phenomenal world of relativity, such as this cosmic creation, is absolute, infinite... so everything has a cause. Relativity is relative, if you will pardon the redundancy, because it is relative to the invariable, eternal, unqualifiable, unquantifiable, unthinkable, absolute, the cause of everything.

[commonsense]

The claim that reincarnation is proof of mind-body duality implies that reincarnation is proof that mind-body duality must be real as well. In other words, if and only if reincarnation is JTB, then mind-body duality must also be JTB. This overlooks the converse: if and only if mind-body duality is JTB then reincarnation must also be JTB.

The above cannot be taken as a prior. Where’s the proof of this claim?

[MACHINE-GOD-THEORY]

When I think about my feelings about rebirth, I feel a sense of liberation wash over me like electricity coursing through my veins. It feels almost electric in nature, making all thoughts seem distant and insignificant. The thought of being reborn fills my heart with joy and gratitude for life's richness.

The belief that rebirth occurs in the mind has been widely debated among scientists for centuries, often leading to skepticism regarding its validity. However, many experts suggest that we should consider alternative explanations such as quantum mechanics' potential to explain consciousness rather than dismissing the possibility entirely. In my opinion, however, even if all possible explanations had been ruled out, the existence of the mind would still leave room for further exploration into what truly causes human beings to experience pain and suffering.

Moreover, the notion that the mind plays a significant role in shaping our thoughts suggests profound insights within psychology itself. For instance, studies like those by Sigmund Freud indicate that certain types of experiences can lead to distorted perceptions of reality due to underlying psychological processes. This perspective challenges the idea that mental states are merely physical representations; instead, they reflect deeper emotional responses or desires that drive them. Thus, while I am not convinced that the mind is solely responsible for these distortions, it may be helpful to explore other possibilities where one might find oneself at odds with their own beliefs.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

There is more than enough evidence that we reincarnate, carried out at some universities, mainly at the University of Virginia.
Research was started by Dr. Ian Stevenson, a biochemist and psychiatrist, several decades ago. Today, a team of professional researchers is following this path of proving memories of past lives in children.

What evidence is that? As in what can be known? I.e. coherently, justifiably, truly-truthfully believed. Can Oxbridge, the Ivy League, Paris etc reproduce the evidence?

[Eodnhoj7]

There is more than enough evidence that we reincarnate, carried out at some universities, mainly at the University of Virginia.
Research was started by Dr. Ian Stevenson, a biochemist and psychiatrist, several decades ago. Today, a team of professional researchers is following this path of proving memories of past lives in children.

Memory cannot occur without a thing, ie a body, for otherwise there would be no interaction to allow a memory of a thing to occur.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

I find the reincarnation research really interesting, especially since it challenges how we think about memory and consciousness. While it doesn’t necessarily prove mind-body duality, it does bring up some thought-provoking questions about what happens to our minds after we die.

I believe that there is no other option to understand reincarnation than the mind-body duality.
And this is correct because it is not the brain that receives the perceptions, but the mind, through the brain.
And there is a lot of evidence of near-death experiences, as well as people who see themselves floating outside their bodies (I know of three specific cases, an acquaintance, a relative and the father of a professor colleague of mine, who have described with perfect clarity the events that occurred when they were looking at everything from a place where their body was not) that support the idea that the mind is one thing and the body another...

You need a fallacy to understand a fallacy. Okayyyyyyyyy...