The education of children in modern times

[LuckyR]

What the employer "gets" from a college graduate isn't what they learned in college, what they get is someone who has proven they can stick to a difficult task for years and not quit. So it's not "the degree" itself, it's what it took, character-wise to get the degree.

Well, they have certainly proven that they are good at orthodox conformity and that they can conceivably stick to a meaningless and boring task for years and not quit. In a sense, they may have learned to be good drones.

I would, however, not say that the task is particularly difficult, as in non-STEM fields, the task mostly amounts to repeating lots of tripe from memory.

STEM fields, on the other hand, are only difficult if the student has no talent for mathematics. In that case, the student should probably do something else which is more in line with his talents. What's the point in struggling with something that you probably do not even like and that you will have to avoid for the rest of your life for lack of talent?

Furthermore, the multi-year length of a degree does not seem to have any bearing on how long graduates will stay in their first job:

https://www.parkerdewey.com/blog/nace-2018-recap

55.3% of recent college graduates will leave their first job within the first year

Last week I attended the 2018 NACE Conference and was inspired by all of the conversations around improving career success for college students and recent grads. However, even with all of the innovation and desire to improve college-to-career outcomes, the US Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that 55.3% of recent college graduates will leave their first job within the first year.

This is a massive issue impacting companies and college students alike, and has not gotten better even with the use of AI, assessments, video interviews, and other filtering tools.

So, doing a boring multi-year degree does not seem to increase the graduate's ability to stick it out in a possibly boring job. That is certainly not what the employer is buying or receiving by demanding a degree.

If one actually reads what you're trying to say and leaves out the self serving pejoratives, you are implying that college work is "meaningless and boring" while most employment must be meaningful and exciting. I think most employed folks would disagree with you.

Secondly you're proposing that obtaining a college degree is quite easy to obtain, whereas the reality is that 40% of bachelor degree candidates can't accomplish it and 76% of associate degree candidates fail to do so.

Your stat on college graduates leaving first jobs is meaningless without data on why they did so. The current economy is notable for undercompensation, so an in-demand worker, with job experience not moving on to greener pastures would be a fool.

[godelian]

If one actually reads what you're trying to say and leaves out the self serving pejoratives, you are implying that college work is "meaningless and boring" while most employment must be meaningful and exciting. I think most employed folks would disagree with you.

What I meant is that college graduates have learned to do endless amounts of boring work and that this should be an excellent preparation for a boring corporate job. However, since college graduates quit their first job after less than a year, it is not necessarily a good preparation for a boring corporate job. For most graduates, it isn't.

Secondly you're proposing that obtaining a college degree is quite easy to obtain, whereas the reality is that 40% of bachelor degree candidates can't accomplish it and 76% of associate degree candidates fail to do so.

In my opinion, getting a college degree is not necessarily easy. Reading lots of boring stuff, is taxing on the nerves. However, it does not mean that the boring stuff is difficult to grasp. It is just boring.

Your stat on college graduates leaving first jobs is meaningless without data on why they did so. The current economy is notable for undercompensation, so an in-demand worker, with job experience not moving on to greener pastures would be a fool.

Yes, agreed. Recent graduates may not get financially compensated enough for their boring corporate pen-pushing work. It certainly makes sense to move on to yet another, better paid but undoubtedly equally boring corporate droning job.

[LuckyR]

Okay, so if I have a meaningful and exciting job position to fill and I follow your advice, I throw out all of the applications from college graduates. So who do I hire? College dropouts or never went to college, or better yet failed to graduate high school, they're probably the least drone-like, right?

[Kaylla]

Or, let's say that this same Angie is only 22 and single. She is beautiful. She goes to church or synagogue, and she's a virgin. Or, she's had only one serious boyfriend so far, and she was with him for five years. She has no children, did not go to university, but has spent her time on small jobs and charity work, and wants to find a good man and have a family. She would not dream of trivial relationships, stays off the internet sites, and knows bars for what they are.

Her serious boyfriend is not a virgin, and fucks around. She would do well to dump his hypocritical patriarchal ass.

[Immanuel Can]

Or, let's say that this same Angie is only 22 and single. She is beautiful. She goes to church or synagogue, and she's a virgin. Or, she's had only one serious boyfriend so far, and she was with him for five years. She has no children, did not go to university, but has spent her time on small jobs and charity work, and wants to find a good man and have a family. She would not dream of trivial relationships, stays off the internet sites, and knows bars for what they are.

Her serious boyfriend is not a virgin, and fucks around. She would do well to dump his hypocritical patriarchal ass.

Yes, she would, if that's what he is. He's high-risk for cheating on her.

But that really wasn't the question, and isn't helpful to the point, because we were speaking of what MEN value, rather than what women do. The question is which of the "Angies" a man will regard as high-value.

And you know the answer, I think.

[Age]

Obviously by a lot of the posts in this thread the education of children in the so-called 'modern times', when this was being written, had FAILED, tremendously.

To have gone from childhood, to being adults, with a lot of the views being presented here, is a SURE SIGN that 'these one's education' was DRASTICALLY Wrong and DISTORTED.

[godelian]

Okay, so if I have a meaningful and exciting job position to fill and I follow your advice, I throw out all of the applications from college graduates. So who do I hire? College dropouts or never went to college, or better yet failed to graduate high school, they're probably the least drone-like, right?

I don't know how it works for all possible jobs. I only know about jobs in my own field. In software engineering, it works as following. This is just a random job advert in New York:

https://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=31744 ... serp&vjs=3

Minimum Qualifications

At least 1-2+ years experience working with web-based technologies
Strong knowledge in JavaScript, and one or more programming languages including but not limited to: PHP, Node, or Python
Strong knowledge with modern web standards including HTML5, CSS3, and ES6+
Strong understanding of database concepts and ability to write complex and optimized queries in databases like MySQL, PostgreSQL
Working knowledge with React/Redux or other JavaScript Frameworks
Familiarity designing and implementing RESTful APIs
Working knowledge of object-oriented design
Familiarity with agile software development methodology
Familiarity with source code control
Excellent communication skills
Knowledge of AWS environment, i.e. S3, containers, Lambda functions, Cognito
Website Accessibility
Knowledge of OWASP top 10 security threats

The environment you’ll be working in:

React/Redux
WordPress
SCSS Modules
CI/CD pipeline to production w/GitLab CI
Test automation for unit, integration
Docker
Jest and Enzyme unit tests
AWS, Pantheon web hosting
MySQL, Postgresql

The salary range for this role is $100,000 - $115,000.00.
All positions are currently eligible for annual profit award or bonus, subject to company results.

The advert does not ask for a degree, because that is pointless. You do not learn any of the above at university. So, don't even bother.

The employer may be interested in the candidate, however, if he does a 3 - 6 month boot camp:

https://www.fullstackacademy.com/progra ... t-bootcamp

Front-end foundations
Front-end development
Development libraries and backend engineering
Full stack development

The employer may recruit brand new boot camp graduates depending on how many otherwise more senior devs are currently on the market. If there is a shortage, a candidate is pretty much sure to get the job with just a bootcamp under his belt. If there is a downturn in the market resulting in a surplus of qualified candidates -- that does not often happen -- then the candidate needs to ask the principal bootcamp admin to push him into a particular job (of his choice) by means of an internship first.

In normal times, the employer does not have the luxury of "throwing out all of the applications" because he won't have any real applications. There will be nothing to "throw out". Instead, an employer will typically need to enlist the services of an external recruiter who is more likely to be able to find suitable candidates.

Searching for Tech Talent

https://www.24seventalent.com/specialties/technology

We make it simple and easy for organizations to find engineers, developers and other full-time and freelance tech professionals. In a rapidly evolving space, 24 Seven’s well-connected tech recruiting experts specialize in helping organizations fill tech roles quickly.

Our Tech Job Expertise

Application Management
Back-End Web Development
CMS Development
Front-End Web Development
Full Stack Development
Game Design
Help Desk/IT Support
Information Architect (IA)
Java/Python

These recruiters typically charge a percentage of the annual salary as a finders fee:

Google AI: What Is the Average Recruitment Fee? Typical recruitment fees range from 15-25% of an employees' first year salary. For example, if a candidate is placed with a company and making $75,000, and the agency charges 20% at time of placement, the company would pay $15,000 to the agency for the placement.

Candidate profiles are never about academic degrees. They are always about (years of) exposure to particular keywords, such as "React", "Javascript", "Python", "Docker", "Git", "AWS", "PostgreSql", and so on.

For most corporate employers, it is ill advised to try to recruit this kind of profile without an external recruitment partner. They may actually have tried in the past. Therefore, they should know better by now.

[LuckyR]

Okay, so if I have a meaningful and exciting job position to fill and I follow your advice, I throw out all of the applications from college graduates. So who do I hire? College dropouts or never went to college, or better yet failed to graduate high school, they're probably the least drone-like, right?

I don't know how it works for all possible jobs. I only know about jobs in my own field. In software engineering, it works as following. This is just a random job advert in New York:

https://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=31744 ... serp&vjs=3

Minimum Qualifications

At least 1-2+ years experience working with web-based technologies
Strong knowledge in JavaScript, and one or more programming languages including but not limited to: PHP, Node, or Python
Strong knowledge with modern web standards including HTML5, CSS3, and ES6+
Strong understanding of database concepts and ability to write complex and optimized queries in databases like MySQL, PostgreSQL
Working knowledge with React/Redux or other JavaScript Frameworks
Familiarity designing and implementing RESTful APIs
Working knowledge of object-oriented design
Familiarity with agile software development methodology
Familiarity with source code control
Excellent communication skills
Knowledge of AWS environment, i.e. S3, containers, Lambda functions, Cognito
Website Accessibility
Knowledge of OWASP top 10 security threats

The environment you’ll be working in:

React/Redux
WordPress
SCSS Modules
CI/CD pipeline to production w/GitLab CI
Test automation for unit, integration
Docker
Jest and Enzyme unit tests
AWS, Pantheon web hosting
MySQL, Postgresql

The salary range for this role is $100,000 - $115,000.00.
All positions are currently eligible for annual profit award or bonus, subject to company results.

The advert does not ask for a degree, because that is pointless. You do not learn any of the above at university. So, don't even bother.

The employer may be interested in the candidate, however, if he does a 3 - 6 month boot camp:

https://www.fullstackacademy.com/progra ... t-bootcamp

Front-end foundations
Front-end development
Development libraries and backend engineering
Full stack development

The employer may recruit brand new boot camp graduates depending on how many otherwise more senior devs are currently on the market. If there is a shortage, a candidate is pretty much sure to get the job with just a bootcamp under his belt. If there is a downturn in the market resulting in a surplus of qualified candidates -- that does not often happen -- then the candidate needs to ask the principal bootcamp admin to push him into a particular job (of his choice) by means of an internship first.

In normal times, the employer does not have the luxury of "throwing out all of the applications" because he won't have any real applications. There will be nothing to "throw out". Instead, an employer will typically need to enlist the services of an external recruiter who is more likely to be able to find suitable candidates.

Searching for Tech Talent

https://www.24seventalent.com/specialties/technology

We make it simple and easy for organizations to find engineers, developers and other full-time and freelance tech professionals. In a rapidly evolving space, 24 Seven’s well-connected tech recruiting experts specialize in helping organizations fill tech roles quickly.

Our Tech Job Expertise

Application Management
Back-End Web Development
CMS Development
Front-End Web Development
Full Stack Development
Game Design
Help Desk/IT Support
Information Architect (IA)
Java/Python

These recruiters typically charge a percentage of the annual salary as a finders fee:

Google AI: What Is the Average Recruitment Fee? Typical recruitment fees range from 15-25% of an employees' first year salary. For example, if a candidate is placed with a company and making $75,000, and the agency charges 20% at time of placement, the company would pay $15,000 to the agency for the placement.

Candidate profiles are never about academic degrees. They are always about (years of) exposure to particular keywords, such as "React", "Javascript", "Python", "Docker", "Git", "AWS", "PostgreSql", and so on.

For most corporate employers, it is ill advised to try to recruit this kind of profile without an external recruitment partner. They may actually have tried in the past. Therefore, they should know better by now.

Two things:

First, in job postings that look for "experience", that experience usually comes from prior employment. In such cases, you're right, no one requires degrees. Which is kind of misleading when discussing the "value" of degrees. Degrees count mainly in entry level hiring (that is in situations without specific experience). The common path is you get the entry level position with your degree, build experience then make further moves up the ladder based on the experience. Your example is too high up the ladder to be relevant to the topic at hand.

Second, your citation mentions "engineers". Well an "engineer" is someone with an engineering degree. They don't need to put a degree requirement in an advert since it's baked into the term.

Just like an ad for a surgeon doesn't need to specify that they're looking for a Medical Doctor.

[godelian]

Second, your citation mentions "engineers". Well an "engineer" is someone with an engineering degree. They don't need to put a degree requirement in an advert since it's baked into the term.

Software engineer, i.e. "programmer", unlike "surgeon", is in principle not a regulated profession:

ChatGPT: Is software engineer a regulated profession?

The regulation of the profession of software engineering varies by country and jurisdiction. In many places, software engineering is not considered a regulated profession in the same way that fields like law, medicine, or accounting are. This means that, generally, there are no mandatory licensing or certification requirements to work as a software engineer in most countries.

However, there are some exceptions:

1. Canada: In certain provinces, such as Ontario and Quebec, software engineers can become licensed professional engineers (P.Eng.) if they meet specific educational and work experience requirements. This is more common in industries that require engineering oversight, such as in safety-critical systems (e.g., aerospace, medical devices).

2. United States: In the U.S., software engineering is not widely regulated at the state level. However, some states may regulate engineers working in specific domains, such as civil, mechanical, or electrical engineering. That said, there are certifications available, like those from the IEEE Computer Society, but they are voluntary and not required to practice.

3. European Union: While software engineering is generally not regulated, there are professional standards and codes of conduct within the EU, such as those set by the British Computer Society (BCS) or the European Federation of National Engineering Associations (FEANI).

4. Australia: Similar to the U.S. and Canada, there is no formal regulation for software engineers, but they can pursue professional membership with organizations like Australian Computer Society (ACS), which offers certification.

In summary, software engineering is generally not regulated in most regions, but professionals can choose to pursue certifications or licenses if they want to demonstrate expertise or work in specialized areas that may require additional credentials.

If the job advert is for a regulated profession, it will always mention which professional board the job candidate must have obtained a license from, to practice.

It is always explicitly mentioned as the top number one and primary requirement in the job advert. In that case, the other requirements are merely secondary.

This is pretty much never the case for "software engineer". The requirements are typically just a collection of keywords. The example job advert did not mention licensing or regulatory certification because that is highly unusual in this field.

[LuckyR]

Second, your citation mentions "engineers". Well an "engineer" is someone with an engineering degree. They don't need to put a degree requirement in an advert since it's baked into the term.

Software engineer, i.e. "programmer", unlike "surgeon", is in principle not a regulated profession:

ChatGPT: Is software engineer a regulated profession?

The regulation of the profession of software engineering varies by country and jurisdiction. In many places, software engineering is not considered a regulated profession in the same way that fields like law, medicine, or accounting are. This means that, generally, there are no mandatory licensing or certification requirements to work as a software engineer in most countries.

However, there are some exceptions:

1. Canada: In certain provinces, such as Ontario and Quebec, software engineers can become licensed professional engineers (P.Eng.) if they meet specific educational and work experience requirements. This is more common in industries that require engineering oversight, such as in safety-critical systems (e.g., aerospace, medical devices).

2. United States: In the U.S., software engineering is not widely regulated at the state level. However, some states may regulate engineers working in specific domains, such as civil, mechanical, or electrical engineering. That said, there are certifications available, like those from the IEEE Computer Society, but they are voluntary and not required to practice.

3. European Union: While software engineering is generally not regulated, there are professional standards and codes of conduct within the EU, such as those set by the British Computer Society (BCS) or the European Federation of National Engineering Associations (FEANI).

4. Australia: Similar to the U.S. and Canada, there is no formal regulation for software engineers, but they can pursue professional membership with organizations like Australian Computer Society (ACS), which offers certification.

In summary, software engineering is generally not regulated in most regions, but professionals can choose to pursue certifications or licenses if they want to demonstrate expertise or work in specialized areas that may require additional credentials.

If the job advert is for a regulated profession, it will always mention which professional board the job candidate must have obtained a license from, to practice.

It is always explicitly mentioned as the top number one and primary requirement in the job advert. In that case, the other requirements are merely secondary.

This is pretty much never the case for "software engineer". The requirements are typically just a collection of keywords. The example job advert did not mention licensing or regulatory certification because that is highly unusual in this field.

In "software engineering" you're right. Civil engineering (and most others), dead wrong.

I guess you agree with my first point.

[godelian]

In "software engineering" you're right. Civil engineering (and most others), dead wrong.
I guess you agree with my first point.

I have never said anything about civil engineering. I don't know how recruitment in civil engineering works. It is not my field.

[Kaylla]

But that really wasn't the question, and isn't helpful to the point, because we were speaking of what MEN value, rather than what women do. The question is which of the "Angies" a man will regard as high-value.

I have no doubt that some men value church-going virgins - I am not sure why you think men in general value them.

[Immanuel Can]

But that really wasn't the question, and isn't helpful to the point, because we were speaking of what MEN value, rather than what women do. The question is which of the "Angies" a man will regard as high-value.

I have no doubt that some men value church-going virgins - I am not sure why you think men in general value them.

Nobody said anything about "church going" exclusively. It could be some other form of spiritual activity. You added that in. But it might be right: church is not a bad place for a sincere person to start. For Jews, it will be Temple, for others, other places of worship. The important thing is probably that she has some attachment to moral and spiritual values that exceed the superficial "I'm a spiritual person" every complete secularist seems to insist is true.

Let's leave that aside.

Let's see what you think men really do value. What would that be?

[godelian]

I have no doubt that some men value church-going virgins - I am not sure why you think men in general value them.

A woman may have the expectation that her man will automatically accept responsibility for all her pregnancies and that he will automatically agree to coparent the children to which she gives birth.

He will be reluctant to do that, however, if he doubts that he is truly the biological father.

The woman will need to maintain her credibility by carefully gatekeeping and credibly restricting sexual access. The fact that she is a virgin certainly increases her credibility, as it indicates that she has a history of restricting sexual access.

So, virginity only matters for women who want to automatically attribute paternity to a particular designated man. It does not matter for women who do not expect any particular man to take responsibility for their pregnancies or to coparent the children to which she gives birth.

Seriously, in the context of casual sex, no man on earth cares about virginity. He doesn't intend to take responsibility anyway.

In modern times, most sex is casual.

Pregnancies are the rare exception and certainly not the rule. If all he is looking for, is regular sexual tension relief, any woman will do, no matter how promiscuous. He just doesn't want her children. They come out of her body. So, it is her problem. My body, my choice!

[Gary Childress]

The 1950s called, they want you back.

I think it might be the other way around, Kaylla. He wants the 1950s back (1950s BCE).