The Democrat Party Hates America

[seeds]

No. Of course not. It would be caused by external influences.

BigMike doesn't seem to be interested in dealing with actual challenges to determinism.

Nevertheless, as a response to him exercising his "free will" to ignore my earlier post to him - the one regarding "Strong Emergence" - viewtopic.php?p=739298#p739298 - I decided to engage ChatGPT once again with a follow up question...

Me:
Couldn't strong emergence also be seen as challenging hardcore determinism's stance against humans possessing free will? And that's because a human mind (with its accompanying "I Am-ness," which would be the alleged possessor or "agent" of free will) is not readily deducible to the seeming deterministic workings of matter, and therefore is exempt from the implications of hardcore determinism.

ChatGPT:
Yes, you’re right—strong emergence is often seen as a philosophical ally in the argument against hardcore determinism and in support of human free will. This is largely because strong emergence suggests that certain mental or conscious properties, such as the experience of "I Am-ness" or agency, are not reducible to the deterministic, mechanistic properties of matter. This irreducibility implies that, at the level of the mind or consciousness, new forms of causation or influence might emerge that aren’t bound by strict determinism. In other words, if the conscious mind has fundamentally new properties that aren’t predictable or explainable solely by brain activity or physical processes, then it may act with a kind of freedom not constrained by determinism.

How Strong Emergence Challenges Determinism and Supports Free Will

• Irreducibility of Consciousness: In strong emergence, consciousness isn’t just an epiphenomenon or byproduct of brain processes. It is, instead, an entirely new phenomenon with its own properties and causal powers, which aren’t reducible to or predictable from physical matter alone.
  
  Genuine Causal Agency: If consciousness (or the "I Am" sense of self) possesses causal powers that arise uniquely at the level of the mind, then actions may not be strictly determined by physical states alone. This can support the notion that human beings are genuine agents with the ability to make choices not strictly bound by the brain’s biochemistry.
  
  Exemption from Determinism: Hardcore determinism implies that every event, including every thought and decision, is causally determined by prior states of matter. If the conscious mind has fundamentally new, emergent properties, it could, in principle, act independently of the deterministic chain of physical events, suggesting a potential space for free will.

A Key Philosophical Debate

Critics of strong emergence argue that it raises questions about how higher-level causal powers could operate in ways fundamentally disconnected from physical causation without violating the laws of physics or invoking dualism. Yet, proponents of strong emergence believe it points to the possibility that new laws or principles of consciousness could emerge at the mental level, potentially allowing for top-down causation (where mental states affect physical states) that does not reduce to determinism.

In this view, strong emergence provides a framework in which the conscious self, or "I Am-ness," may possess a degree of freedom from deterministic physical causation, making it a compelling approach to reconciling free will with a world that includes complex physical processes.

Come on now, BigMike, how about addressing these legitimate arguments against determinism?
_______

[Gary Childress]

I think there may be a God and if so, God is pissed at me for dissing him/her or whatever. When I go, I just want to go without pain or fear. And I want there to be a world left behind afterwards where future generations will flourish and not have to deal with the same shit we did. That's pretty much it. There's nothing else to hope for or want that is worth wanting or hoping for.

[Alexis Jacobi]

All I want is for five thousand people to sign up for The 12-Week (“Life Transformational”) Email Course (at $4,888.00 a head) and to finally GET IT that there all questions have been answered!

Is this too damned much to ask?!?

[Dubious]

All I want is for five thousand people to sign up for The 12-Week (“Life Transformational”) Email Course (at $4,888.00 a head) and to finally GET IT that there all questions have been answered!

Is this too damned much to ask?!?

YES! Approximately $4887.00 too much...and I'll want a 99% discount on the amount which remains outstanding!

[Dubious]

I think there may be a God and if so, God is pissed at me for dissing him/her or whatever. When I go, I just want to go without pain or fear. And I want there to be a world left behind afterwards where future generations will flourish and not have to deal with the same shit we did. That's pretty much it. There's nothing else to hope for or want that is worth wanting or hoping for.

Don't worry! Once your existence has ceased so will your concern for anything else. If humanity is so loathsomely stupid, pathetic and insane they will fully deserve whatever is coming to them. Among the intelligences which may and probably do exist in the cosmos, we will be among those scribes who have failed miserably to receive an entry in the annals of success by having overcome the immense challenges of our own limitations. What is now already points the way to what will be. The word apocalypse is no-longer such an imagined event as it once was.

[Alexis Jacobi]

BigMike doesn't seem to be interested in dealing with actual challenges to determinism.

Perhaps he’s thinking?

[seeds]

All I want is for five thousand people to sign up for The 12-Week (“Life Transformational”) Email Course (at $4,888.00 a head) and to finally GET IT that there all questions have been answered!

Is this too damned much to ask?!?

Perhaps you need an agent?

For a mere 10% of your projected earnings (upfront, of course), I will make up some fliers and nail them to light poles around town.
_______

[seeds]

...When I go, I just want to go without pain or fear.

Well, if your final days are spent in a hospice facility, you can always hope that a cute young nurse will go heavy on the morphine for you.

Presto - no pain and no fear (and a sweet farewell smile to boot).

Goodbye Gary....



...Do you need the bedpan before you go? Because you'd better not leave me no mess to clean up like the other day.
_______

[BigMike]

The opposite of “determined” in this context would be “independent” or “uncaused.” For free will to be truly free, it would need to operate independently of these prior causes, allowing the mind to act without being influenced by physical states or past experiences. But here’s the catch: in a universe governed by cause and effect, such independence doesn’t fit. Every action, even those we experience as conscious decisions, has a chain of causes behind it, making it “determined” in a scientific sense.

OK. So you are a determinist who doesn't believe in Free Will. Is that correct?

That's correct.

[BigMike]

This is a re-post, in case Alexis missed it the first time.

Now, on the question of responsibility: I’m not suggesting that we’re unaware of our actions or incapable of avoiding harm. Our consciousness allows us to process information, weigh options, and respond to stimuli—like avoiding an oncoming truck. But the point is that these responses are products of our brain’s physical processes, which are in turn shaped by prior influences and environmental conditioning. In other words, while we feel we’re making free choices, every thought and decision is the result of complex interactions within the brain, bound by physical laws.

Factually, even in our ultra-modern 2024, the “mechanism” through which or by which humankind act, think, reason and discern, is debated and undecided.

But curiously, you have re-roped in the fact of the realness of consequential choices that each of us can and do make, within our cultural and temporal matrixes, and within our biological matrix, except you cannot refer to any evidence of a metaphysical agent.

However, you are not the only one to have concerned himself with the •psychic• factor (the psyche is what I mean) and the issue and question of human consciousness.

I think that ultimately I resist your spiel in some way similar to my resistance of a dreary poem. I do not mean this personally though. I do not disagree that material science (scientism more properly) presents strong arguments (for determinism), but the way it is handled or wielded is to me far too constraining.

As Basil Willey has suggested a “master metaphysician” is needed to explore even the most convincing, and devastating, materialist argument.

I myself do not desire to tie myself up in those knots …

Alexis, let me ask—do you see how memories and learning, both of which are hardwired into our physical brain through our history of influences, could account for the sense of agency or “selfness” you’re seeking, even within a deterministic framework? These memories, experiences, and learned responses aren’t just passing phenomena; they create enduring, physical changes in our neural pathways and become an integral part of who we are. They shape our perceptions, preferences, and responses, giving rise to a personal narrative that feels distinctly “us.”

This deeply ingrained history essentially defines our identity, our values, and our unique way of interacting with the world. So, in that sense, couldn’t this framework of memories and influences be enough to account for the sense of agency and individuality you’re talking about, even if it doesn’t imply an external metaphysical agent?

It might not satisfy the notion of metaphysical free will, but doesn’t it provide a substantial, scientifically grounded form of self that still respects our lived experience of choice and individuality?

[Age]

I think you're shooting yourself in the foot. How are you going to change the system or anyone's conditions if you are unable to change the system or their conditions? Can you change the laws of conservation if they determine that things are as they are?

I understand why this might seem paradoxical at first glance, but let’s dig a little deeper. The laws of conservation don’t stop change—they explain *how* change happens. When I say that every action, thought, and memory is shaped by physical processes, I’m not denying that change is possible. In fact, change is always happening—our brains are constantly adapting to our environment and experiences. What we learn, remember, and respond to are all shaped by external forces, which cause real, lasting changes in our neuronal networks. That’s what memory is: the physical rewiring of our brain, where new axon terminals grow, synapses strengthen, and neural pathways adjust based on our experiences.

The idea isn’t that we’re “stuck” without the possibility of altering the world or our surroundings. It’s that these changes are caused by interactions in a complex, deterministic system. So, even if individuals don’t have free will in the traditional sense, we can still change systems by creating conditions that shape people’s behavior in beneficial ways. We influence laws, environments, and social systems that, in turn, reshape individuals and society—through education, for instance, or social reform.

It’s not about changing the fundamental laws of conservation but rather understanding them to create meaningful, impactful shifts in the world we live in.

But just understanding fundamental laws never necessarily helps in creating meaningful, impactful shifts in 'the world' at all.

Understanding how and why all adult human beings do Wrong, however, helps, tremendously, in impacting the actual meaningful shift in 'the world', which is currently desperately needed in the days when this is being written.

See, stopping and/or preventing future adult human beings from also doing the Wrong, that the 'current' ones are doing, is the biggest and best impactful shift that could, and will, happen.

Prevention is always better than the cure.

[BigMike]

But just understanding fundamental laws never necessarily helps in creating meaningful, impactful shifts in 'the world' at all.

Understanding how and why all adult human beings do Wrong, however, helps, tremendously, in impacting the actual meaningful shift in 'the world', which is currently desperately needed in the days when this is being written.

See, stopping and/or preventing future adult human beings from also doing the Wrong, that the 'current' ones are doing, is the biggest and best impactful shift that could, and will, happen.

Prevention is always better than the cure.

I agree that understanding why people act in harmful or destructive ways is essential to creating meaningful change. The idea isn’t that understanding fundamental laws directly leads to shifts in behavior, but rather that this understanding informs us on how change occurs and how we might influence it.

When we grasp that human behavior is shaped by external conditions—like education, social structures, and environmental influences—we can design systems that encourage beneficial behavior and reduce harmful actions. This is where prevention comes in. By shaping these conditions thoughtfully, we can help steer future generations toward better choices without relying on the concept of free will.

In essence, understanding the mechanisms behind behavior allows us to target the root causes of harmful actions, rather than merely treating symptoms after the fact. So yes, knowing *how* people are influenced helps us create preventive strategies that might stop future harm before it happens.

[Age]

But just understanding fundamental laws never necessarily helps in creating meaningful, impactful shifts in 'the world' at all.

Understanding how and why all adult human beings do Wrong, however, helps, tremendously, in impacting the actual meaningful shift in 'the world', which is currently desperately needed in the days when this is being written.

See, stopping and/or preventing future adult human beings from also doing the Wrong, that the 'current' ones are doing, is the biggest and best impactful shift that could, and will, happen.

Prevention is always better than the cure.

I agree that understanding why people act in harmful or destructive ways is essential to creating meaningful change. The idea isn’t that understanding fundamental laws directly leads to shifts in behavior, but rather that this understanding informs us on how change occurs and how we might influence it.

But how could you human beings affect or influence the fundamental law of 'change', itself?

Change happens ALWAYS, no matter what you human beings do or do not do.

Now, as for influencing 'a change' that puts 'the world' back on to the 'Right track's, then one does not have to know a thing about fundamental laws, all one has to learn, and understand, how and why they are doing Wrong. Which, obviously, can and will, only, occur and happen after one start accepting responsibility, by admiring, what they doing Wrong, in Life.

I say, 'obviously', because until one start accepting responsibility, by being honest and open about what they doing Wrong, then there is, literally, NOTHING AT ALL that needs CHANGING.

When we grasp that human behavior is shaped by external conditions—like education, social structures, and environmental influences—we can design systems that encourage beneficial behavior and reduce harmful actions.

Is there are human being who has not yet grasped that human behavior is shaped by external conditions?

If yes, then who are they, exactly?

This is where prevention comes in.

Prevention comes in only after one has understood and grasped what directly causes mis/behaviors, and has successfully changed 'that'.

By shaping these conditions thoughtfully, we can help steer future generations toward better choices without relying on the concept of free will.

Have you heard the expressions, 'Look at "yourself" before you look at others', and/or, 'you have to fix/help "yourself" first before you could help fix others'?

If yes, then why not do these first, before attempting to change the environment, itself?

See, once the very thing that directly causes the 'mis/behaviors', which has created the environment and external conditions, which is what causes children to 'grow up' and do the very SAME Wrong that you adult human beings do, the 'the environment/external conditions just change, naturally, anyway.

And, obviously once you adult human beings stop doing the Wrong that you all obviously are doing, in the days when this is being written, then the 'external conditions', which influence behavior, will only be of Right, and good. Therefore, 'the prevention' and stopping of children to 'grow up' also doing Wrong will begin.

In essence, understanding the mechanisms behind behavior allows us to target the root causes of harmful actions, rather than merely treating symptoms after the fact.

Have you yet grasped and understood 'the mechanism', and 'root causes', behind human behavior, and misbehavior?

If yes, then have you grasped and understood them FULLY, yet?

If yes, then you already KNOW, EXACTLY, 'the solution's, and 'the formula' needed here, right?

So yes, knowing *how* people are influenced helps us create preventive strategies that might stop future harm before it happens.

But, it is not a matter of 'might', it is a matter of 'will'.

The answer, solution, and formula needed here is, already, known. Most, however, just do not believe, or accept, this.

[BigMike]

I see where you’re going with this, especially around the idea of taking personal responsibility before attempting to influence broader systems. And yes, change is inevitable—nothing we do or don’t do can prevent change from occurring in some form. But it’s not about influencing the concept of change itself; it’s about influencing *how* that change unfolds in ways that steer us toward a better, healthier society.

You ask if people haven’t already grasped that behavior is shaped by external conditions. In theory, many people might agree with this, but in practice, much of society still operates as though we act from an independent, free will that overrides environmental influence. We still largely frame responsibility in individual terms, as if personal willpower alone is the primary driver of human actions. But once we recognize that misbehavior has root causes grounded in environment, social structures, and prior conditioning, we see that to create genuine improvement, we must adjust the external conditions that shape future behavior.

As for whether I’ve fully understood the mechanisms behind human behavior and misbehavior: I believe we’re getting closer as a society to understanding these mechanisms, thanks to psychology, neuroscience, and social sciences. We know that conditioning, prior experiences, and environmental factors play huge roles. The formula isn’t a mystery—it involves creating conditions that minimize harm and support prosocial behaviors, essentially “stacking the deck” in favor of positive outcomes.

You mentioned that the answer, solution, or formula already exists. I’d love to hear your thoughts on what you see as the exact solution. How do you envision society effectively stopping the cycle of “Wrong” you’re talking about?

[Age]

I see where you’re going with this, especially around the idea of taking personal responsibility before attempting to influence broader systems. And yes, change is inevitable—nothing we do or don’t do can prevent change from occurring in some form. But it’s not about influencing the concept of change itself; it’s about influencing *how* that change unfolds in ways that steer us toward a better, healthier society.

If 'it' is about steering you human beings towards a better, healthier society, then all that is needed is for you adult human beings to 'accept responsibility', by just admitting your Wrong doings, Honestly and Openly, without fear of judgement nor punishment, and then to 'take responsibility', by just seriously Wanting to change for the better.

See, by just being absolutely Honest, Open, and Wanting to change, for the better, then that is *HOW* 'the world' starts to become a much better, and healthier, place for every one

You ask if people haven’t already grasped that behavior is shaped by external conditions. In theory, many people might agree with this, but in practice, much of society still operates as though we act from an independent, free will that overrides environmental influence.

This is because 'free will' co-exists equally with 'determinism', itself. And, which is how, and why, what is Truly wanted and desired by every one can, will, and does come-to-exist.

Oh, and by the, the reason you say and claim 'free will' does not exist is because you have and hold a definition of and for the 'free will' words and term, which would just be an impossibility to exist, correct?

We still largely frame responsibility in individual terms, as if personal willpower alone is the primary driver of human actions.

Who will do this? And, why will you, and them, largely, do this?

But once we recognize that misbehavior has root causes grounded in environment, social structures, and prior conditioning, we see that to create genuine improvement, we must adjust the external conditions that shape future behavior.

Can you, really, still not yet see the contradiction here?

As for whether I’ve fully understood the mechanisms behind human behavior and misbehavior: I believe we’re getting closer as a society to understanding these mechanisms, thanks to psychology, neuroscience, and social sciences.

So, your, real, answer is, 'No', correct?

And, again, once you do, then you will, also, KNOW what to do in order to create a much better 'world', for every one

We know that conditioning, prior experiences, and environmental factors play huge roles. The formula isn’t a mystery—it involves creating conditions that minimize harm and support prosocial behaviors, essentially “stacking the deck” in favor of positive outcomes.

YET ALL you adult human beings in the days when this was being written just kept doing what you were 'conditioned' to do, while 'trying to' 'justify' those Wrong behaviors' that you ALL just kept on doing.

You mentioned that the answer, solution, or formula already exists.

I actually said and wrote, 'and', instead of, 'or'.

I’d love to hear your thoughts on what you see as the exact solution.

It is, literally, H.O.W. With full and serious Honesty, Openness, and Want (to change,for the better), then that is *HOW* 'the world', environment/external factors, will, and did, just naturally change, for the better, as well.

And, the speed at which this change will, and does, occur and happen in just a generation or two is blindly fast compared to how long it has taken 'the world'/society to become as sick and unhealthy as it is in the days when this is being written. See, when every one is moving, together, towards and for the SAME goal, which every one wants and desires as One, then the speed of this Creator will be some thing to be SEEN, to be believed

How do you envision society effectively stopping the cycle of “Wrong” you’re talking about?

By, and when, you adult human beings STOP 'judging' and 'punishing' one another, then 'the fear' of 'being judged and punished' will be gone, then you adults can, and will, Openly, and Honestly, admit the Wrong you each and all do, and 'seek out' the help and encouragement that you all desire and beed. And then, and only then, can the Wrong that you all do, which creates 'the society', which influences the behavior and misbehavior of all of the continually up and coming adults can, and will, be prevented, and finally STOPPED ONCE, and for ALL.

With the speed of 'the recovery' happening and occuring thousands of times faster, than it took to become so unwell and unhealthy.

To elaborate, it is commonly misspoke, in the days this is being written anyway, that money, or the love-of-money is the root of all evil. However, that is the third root of all evil, child abuse being the second, and dishonesty being the (first) root of all evil.

Honesty is 'the key' that unlocks all of the doors to 'understanding', itself, which is what is Truly needed here to find the answer, solution, and formula to ALL of 'Life's' apparent mysteries, and problems.

And, with your openness and inquisitiveness that you are showing here, you might well be one of the first to comprehend and see/understand 'the understanding' here, which is needed