The Democrat Party Hates America

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seeds
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by seeds »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:21 am
Image

close the border
Just for funzies, and because it seems to be the trendy thing to do as of late, I asked Microsoft's Copilot the following question (bolding and font re-sizing mine)...
Me:
To what extent has America's meddling in the politics of various countries in South America, contributed to the surge of refugees to America?

Copilot:
America's involvement in South American politics has had a significant impact on the region, contributing to various socio-political issues that have, in turn, led to an increase in refugees seeking asylum in the U.S. Over the decades, the U.S. has been involved in regime changes, supporting coups, and backing authoritarian regimes to counter left-wing movements. This has often led to political instability, economic hardship, and human rights abuses in the affected countries.

For instance, U.S. interventions during the Cold War aimed at curbing Soviet influence often resulted in long-term instability. The economic and social turmoil in countries like Venezuela, exacerbated by political mismanagement and external pressures, has forced millions to flee. Similarly, the violence and economic instability in countries like El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras have roots in historical U.S. policies and interventions.
The point is that it takes a special kind of idiot to not understand where a great deal of the blame for the border crisis lies.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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seeds wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 4:53 am The point is that it takes a special kind of idiot to not understand where a great deal of the blame for the border crisis lies.
Just a few years back the Wall Street Journal and ‘big business’ very strongly advocated for open borders. The free flow of immigrants (legal and illegal) keeps labor cost down.

So that must be taken into consideration.

The populist movement challenges that, for nativist and worker-protection reasons.

Also, if there is a régime in power that foments wars which cause people to flee their countries, creating a refugee crisis, then that régime’s policies need to be thwarted.

Though I am uncertain how deep or sincere it really is, the “Super Ticket” of Gabbard, Kennedy, Ramaswamy, Musk, Carlson and Trump all oppose seeking and expanding wars. I vote for Trump largely because of the influence of those on that ticket.

The Democrat Party has become unrecognizable value-wise.
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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Dubious wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:02 amThere's already a plethora of the home-grown variety who think it's a good idea! You know, the Made in America kind!
You ain't wrong.
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henry quirk
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by henry quirk »

seeds wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 4:53 amit takes a special kind of idiot to not understand where a great deal of the blame for the border crisis lies.
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:15 amI agree. It's well past tine for the US to stop bein' a buttinsky.
BigMike
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by BigMike »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:17 am You seem to assume there is a solution, but my impression of what you write is that you have not apprehended the depth of the problem. Therefore, your will to seek a solution is premature.

Allow me to ask: What titles on contemporary (American) issues would you recommend if I were to ask you for say five or six? I certainly expect that as an author you have read many in the course of research. I will share my own if you wish.

Which titles are important reads?
Alright, let me start with one work I studied that might be of interest in this context: the English translation of Emmy Noether’s original 7-8 page paper. Noether’s theorem is dense but revolutionary; it essentially links symmetries in physical systems to conservation laws. This isn’t just physics for the sake of physics—Noether’s work touches on the fundamental structures that determine how the universe behaves. Here's the link to that translation: http://cwp.library.ucla.edu/articles/no ... rt186.html.

Let’s dive into why Noether’s work is so significant in understanding free will and even how we think about governance and moral responsibility. At its core, Noether’s theorem reveals a profound connection between the symmetry of a system and conservation laws. Every single law of physics — from how planets orbit the sun to how neurons fire in our brains — is ultimately a variation on this theme.

Noether showed that if a system has a certain kind of symmetry, then there’s something that must be conserved. For example, if a system is symmetric in time, meaning the laws of physics don’t change from one moment to the next, we get conservation of energy. If a system is symmetric in space, meaning the laws don’t vary from place to place, we get conservation of momentum. These aren’t just arbitrary rules; they’re fundamental truths about how the universe behaves at every level.

Now, when it comes to our brains, the firing of neurons, and the decisions we make, we’re talking about a whole network of physical processes unfolding according to these same conservation principles. Think about it: every action potential that zips down a neuron’s axon, every release of neurotransmitters at a synapse, every muscle that twitches as a result — they’re all governed by the same conservation laws. Energy isn’t created or lost in our thoughts or actions; it’s transformed, directed, and conserved, maintaining the closed system of physical law that Noether’s theorem supports.

When we talk about choice, agency, or moral responsibility, these are human constructs built on the very physics that keep our universe predictable and stable. Every “choice” we make is essentially the result of energy conserved and directed through the specific patterns and processes in our brains, influenced by our biology, past experiences, and the external stimuli around us. If our brains, like all physical systems, are subject to these conservation laws, then it follows that our decisions are not the product of an uncaused or free agent, but rather the natural outcome of these deterministic processes.

So, why does this matter for democracy or governance? Well, if our behavior is governed by deterministic laws, then perhaps we need to rethink how we approach concepts like responsibility, punishment, and even policy-making. Shouldn’t our laws and policies be designed with a recognition of the real drivers of human behavior — these fundamental, immutable laws of physics — rather than assuming humans possess absolute free will?

In short, Noether’s insight into conservation laws is not some abstract principle disconnected from daily life; it’s a framework that forces us to look differently at the very foundation of human decision-making, morality, and governance. I’d be curious to know where you see these ideas aligning — or not — with the depth of the issues we’re discussing. I’d be genuinely interested to hear why you might feel this isn’t relevant, too shallow, to discussions around free will, moral responsibility, or even democratic voting. To me, the deterministic nature of physical laws, as framed by Noether’s work, plays directly into debates about human agency and our social constructs. I’d love to hear where you see the disconnect or, on the other hand, if you think there’s value in drawing these ideas together.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

What?!?

I asked you to mention titles written on contemporary American issues. And this is what you send up?

You seem to be working from an “unusual” (putting it mildly) set of presuppositions that have influenced and determined some (odd) conclusions.

I am uncertain I want to invest time going down a questionable road with you.

At the very least — to use a hunting term — I flushed you out to a degree.

Do please proceed however. That is what this space is for …
BigMike
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by BigMike »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:56 pm What?!?

I asked you to mention titles written on contemporary American issues. And this is what you send up?

You seem to be working from an “unusual” (putting it mildly) set of presuppositions that have influenced and determined some (odd) conclusions.

I am uncertain I want to invest time going down a questionable road with you.

At the very least — to use a hunting term — I flushed you out to a degree.

Do please proceed however. That is what this space is for …
Alright, fair enough! I get that my response may have felt like an unexpected pivot. But I’m genuinely interested in hearing more about which part of it seems off the mark to you. Is it the way conservation laws tie into discussions of free will and governance? Or is it the underlying assumptions about determinism that feel like a stretch?

I’m coming at this from the view that if we want to understand human behavior, we should look at it through the lens of how the world actually operates — at every level, including the neurological and physical. But if that’s not resonating, I’d love to hear where we’re diverging here. Which part of this, in your view, takes us down that “questionable road”?
BigMike
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by BigMike »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:17 am Allow me to ask: What titles on contemporary (American) issues would you recommend if I were to ask you for say five or six? I certainly expect that as an author you have read many in the course of research. I will share my own if you wish.

Which titles are important reads?
I appreciate your curiosity about my reading list and the kinds of works that shape my thinking. Now, I tend to follow a bit of advice from Niels Henrik Abel—maybe you know it: "Study the masters, not their students." Abel's words are a reminder to dig into the source, to go straight to the minds that shaped the field and laid down the foundational ideas. There’s a certain clarity and boldness in the masters’ work that, for me, cuts through a lot of the noise.

So when it comes to studying, I’ve leaned on those voices that explore ideas deeply and directly rather than interpretations or more surface-level takes. It’s not that contemporary analysis doesn’t have value—it absolutely does—but I like to get to the roots. I find that understanding the original insights from the big thinkers gives me a stronger grounding, especially when wading through modern issues.
Dubious
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Dubious »

BigMike wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 3:44 pm

...but I like to get to the roots.
...as do I, always. But in order to do that it becomes necessary to forgo much of the philosophical sediment and claptrap which obfuscates the reality. Where do the so-called masters look to discover the fundamental views which reflect conditions more precisely but in nature and the incorporated realities of the conditions we find ourselves in having created them but which most philosophical commentary and laminations only serve to distort.

Forgive the interruption; back to the regular channel!
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

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Dubious wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 7:29 pm Forgive the interruption; back to the regular channel!
I think we’re actually seeing eye to eye here. When you get into concepts like determinism and the idea that every event has a cause—well, you’re right. It’s not about just putting old ideas in fresh language; it’s about drilling down to the actual bedrock of reality. The goal isn’t to build on layers of philosophical interpretations but to reach the raw, underlying principles themselves.

When I say I look to the masters, it’s because I’m searching for the unfiltered insights that reflect the natural world as it is. They help cut through the noise, not adding more layers but peeling them back. That’s why I stay focused on what’s real, on that chain of cause and effect that shapes everything around us. It’s not dressed-up philosophy—it’s about uncovering the actual mechanisms at play in human behavior, in the universe, without the “sediment,” as you put it.

So, no need for forgiveness here. I think these kinds of interruptions are exactly where we get to the good stuff.
seeds
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by seeds »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:51 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 4:53 amit takes a special kind of idiot to not understand where a great deal of the blame for the border crisis lies.
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:15 amI agree. It's well past tine for the US to stop bein' a buttinsky.
I don't think the mild little term "buttinsky" quite covers the damage America has done (and plans to do) to other societies across the planet.

And the point was, that if America is going to help facilitate,...

"...regime changes, support coups, and back authoritarian regimes to counter left-wing [aka, democratic] movements..."

...which, in turn, has led to,...

"...political instability, economic hardship, and human rights abuses in the affected countries..." - (in South America and the Middle East to name a few)

...then don't you think that America bears responsibility to take-in the innocent men, women, and children whose homelands we've help to make unlivable for them?

Again, it takes a special kind of (blind and heartless) American idiot who whines about needing to block the flood of refugees (by violence if necessary), when it was America's violent foreign policies that helped create the problem to begin with.
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Age
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Age »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:56 pm What?!?

I asked you to mention titles written on contemporary American issues. And this is what you send up?
But why not 'send up' or 'end up', here?

After all a lot of discussions around Truly meaningful, deeper, and universal things, which is what 'philosophical discussions are, supposed, to entail, just 'end up' being about some people's Truly insignificant, shallow, and personal views of things. Well this is what they 'send up' here anyway.

So, why not turn things around and bring discussions in a 'philosophical setting', like what this forum is, BACK TO where they REALLY BELONG.

If ANY one wants to talk about their own personal political view, in some like country like the one being discussed here, then why not take that view and discussion over to a website and forum that was made for those types of Truly insignificant discussions.

What "bigmike" 'brought' or 'sent' here, when cooked into' and 'discussed' FULLY shows and reveals WHY you adult human beings, sometimes, have and look from the most Truly shallow, narrow, and insignificant perspective of things.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:56 pm You seem to be working from an “unusual” (putting it mildly) set of presuppositions that have influenced and determined some (odd) conclusions.
you obviously have not STOPPED to just consider what was said and written.

you, OBVIOUSLY, have a 'one-sided' view and position here, which you want to KEEP, and FIGHT FOR.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:56 pm I am uncertain I want to invest time going down a questionable road with you.

At the very least — to use a hunting term — I flushed you out to a degree.

Do please proceed however. That is what this space is for …
In other words you are wanting "bigmike" to keep writing and speaking here, but you will just keep not reading, nor listening.
Age
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Age »

BigMike wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 3:07 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:56 pm What?!?

I asked you to mention titles written on contemporary American issues. And this is what you send up?

You seem to be working from an “unusual” (putting it mildly) set of presuppositions that have influenced and determined some (odd) conclusions.

I am uncertain I want to invest time going down a questionable road with you.

At the very least — to use a hunting term — I flushed you out to a degree.

Do please proceed however. That is what this space is for …
Alright, fair enough! I get that my response may have felt like an unexpected pivot. But I’m genuinely interested in hearing more about which part of it seems off the mark to you. Is it the way conservation laws tie into discussions of free will and governance? Or is it the underlying assumptions about determinism that feel like a stretch?

I’m coming at this from the view that if we want to understand human behavior, we should look at it through the lens of how the world actually operates — at every level, including the neurological and physical. But if that’s not resonating, I’d love to hear where we’re diverging here. Which part of this, in your view, takes us down that “questionable road”?
If ANY of you here Truly want to understand 'human behavior', FULLY, then how this IS and WAS achieved is, really, far simpler and easier than any of you are imagining.
Age
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Age »

BigMike wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 3:44 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:17 am Allow me to ask: What titles on contemporary (American) issues would you recommend if I were to ask you for say five or six? I certainly expect that as an author you have read many in the course of research. I will share my own if you wish.

Which titles are important reads?
I appreciate your curiosity about my reading list and the kinds of works that shape my thinking. Now, I tend to follow a bit of advice from Niels Henrik Abel—maybe you know it: "Study the masters, not their students." Abel's words are a reminder to dig into the source, to go straight to the minds that shaped the field and laid down the foundational ideas. There’s a certain clarity and boldness in the masters’ work that, for me, cuts through a lot of the noise.

So when it comes to studying, I’ve leaned on those voices that explore ideas deeply and directly rather than interpretations or more surface-level takes.
But, HOW did 'you' 'decide' who the so-called "masters" are, exactly? For example, some say 'the master' is a SAGE, or a Spirit, God, Allah, (or) Enlightenment, Itself.

If, and when, 'you' find out WHY 'you' made/make the 'decision/s' that 'you' do, exactly, then 'you' will have discovered 'human behavior' in a much more enlightened or fuller way.
BigMike wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 3:44 pm It’s not that contemporary analysis doesn’t have value—it absolutely does—but I like to get to the roots. I find that understanding the original insights from the big thinkers gives me a stronger grounding, especially when wading through modern issues.
Expressing that there are some so-called 'big thinkers' and some who are not just shows and reveals 'your prejudices' only. It certainly does not show nor prove that there are some so-called 'masters' or cbig thinkers' or not.

Also, finding and uncovering the very 'root' of human behavior' was in fact very revealing, very refreshing, and very rewarding.

As it also led to the Creation of 'the (exact same) world' that all of you human beings Truly wanted and desired, anyway.
Gary Childress
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Re: The Democrat Party Hates America

Post by Gary Childress »

seeds wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 6:28 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 1:51 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 4:53 amit takes a special kind of idiot to not understand where a great deal of the blame for the border crisis lies.
henry quirk wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:15 amI agree. It's well past tine for the US to stop bein' a buttinsky.
I don't think the mild little term "buttinsky" quite covers the damage America has done (and plans to do) to other societies across the planet.

And the point was, that if America is going to help facilitate,...

"...regime changes, support coups, and back authoritarian regimes to counter left-wing [aka, democratic] movements..."

...which, in turn, has led to,...

"...political instability, economic hardship, and human rights abuses in the affected countries..." - (in South America and the Middle East to name a few)

...then don't you think that America bears responsibility to take-in the innocent men, women, and children whose homelands we've help to make unlivable for them?

Again, it takes a special kind of (blind and heartless) American idiot who whines about needing to block the flood of refugees (by violence if necessary), when it was America's violent foreign policies that helped create the problem to begin with.
_______
I think you and Henry might be trying to accomplish a similar goal (justice) but in different ways with different results. I tend to wonder if there's common ground to be had or if we're all going to remain divided and constantly bickering over who's got it right. And I think it all comes down to which is the case; are we humans all one species or are we as many different species as there are differences in genotypes, phenotypes, religions and political systems. Lumpers vs. splitters. It's the Tower of Babel all over again. :|

Such is life I suppose.
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