Gaza Crisis: Are we morally wrong?

[Gary Childress]

What if we (Americans) are morally wrong to back Israel and enable Israel's campaign in Gaza? What if Israel is morally wrong in its conduct of the war against Gaza? Then what? Do we keep doing what we are doing even though it would be morally wrong to do so? What would be said of us in the end? Would it not matter? What would God think of us? Would it not matter?

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024 ... ia-incited

Finally, the question: ARE we morally wrong? Is Israel morally wrong? And how can we know or find out an answer to that question in the middle of a war?

War by nature is immoral.
Once a war [immoral] is started, both sides are already engaged in something immoral.
Given the existing circumstances, it is immoral for the US to back Israel, but at the same time it is also immoral for Hamas to continue with the war.
The moral thing to do is to prevent a war from starting in the first place; this is not very feasible given the psychological state of the majority at present.
This is why it is critical to establish a moral model and system that will prevent wars from happening at all.

At present, Hamas insist it will continue with as many Oct7 as they can, till they can get rid of all Jew from that land which they claim is theirs.
In this case, it is rational for Israel to want to get rid of Hamas to ensure the Jews survive on that land.
While Israel want to get rid of Hamas to avoid further Oct7, Hamas is defending itself using civilians as a shield, thus the inevitable killing of civilians. It is noted Israel had exercised a lot of caution to minimize the killing of civilians.

While there is a land issue [proximate cause], the real ultimate root cause is the religion, where the religion instigates and wants to exterminate the Jews who are heavily condemned with the holy text of the religion.
The AntiSemitism in the Q is more than the Mein Kampf.
https://www.cspii.org/learn-political-i ... cal-islam/

This is why Iran & Gang who are Shia will partner with the arch enemies Hamas [Sunni] to get rid of the Jews in the name of their God & religion which is condoned in their main holy texts.
Where there is no such common goal, the Sunni [80%] and Shia [15%] will kill each other.

That the US support Israel is secondary, what is critical is the root cause of the conflict is inherent in the religion. Deal with the religion, and the land issue [moral and others] can be resolved easily.

I assume Israel ought to change its religious convictions as well? The Zionist movement has been fueling a lot of the current war with Illegal settlements. I don't think an "eye for an eye" is an effective strategy for peace if both sides adopt the position. (Not that Israel isn't trying to take more than an "eye" from the Palestinians in the present situation.)

I also question the accuracy of the current crisis being fueled solely by religion. The Palestinians want a place to live. That is a pretty universal human sentiment and certainly everyone ought to have a place to live that isn't an open air prison--unless they are actually guilty of something. Religion certainly provides strength and conviction to do things, even if they are the wrong things to do, but it seems like maybe more than just a religious matter. Arab states at the UN recently have reiterated that they will guarantee Israel peace in exchange for a Palestinian state on pre-1967 borders. In my opinion, Israel ought to swallow a little ambition and hubris and come to the table for everyone's benefit, not just their own. Otherwise, all this is just going to keep on escalating until everyone is dragged in and destroyed.

You said: Is it true that Arab states have offered Israel peace in exchange for pre-1967 borders for a Palestinian state?

ChatGPT said:
ChatGPT
Yes, Arab states have indeed offered Israel peace in exchange for returning to the pre-1967 borders and establishing a Palestinian state. This proposal is most notably outlined in the Arab Peace Initiative of 2002. Presented by Saudi Arabia and endorsed by the Arab League, the initiative proposed a two-state solution, with Israel withdrawing to its pre-1967 borders and recognizing an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital. In return, Arab states promised to recognize Israel and establish normal diplomatic relations, effectively offering a path to regional peace and normalization.

Key points of the Arab Peace Initiative include:

Full Israeli Withdrawal from territories occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War (the West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights).
Creation of a Palestinian State alongside Israel, based on the pre-1967 lines, with East Jerusalem as its capital.
Just Solution for Palestinian Refugees that is agreed upon in line with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194, though the exact nature of this solution has been open to negotiation.
Normalization of Relations between Israel and all Arab countries upon Israel’s acceptance of these terms.
The proposal has been revisited multiple times since 2002, but despite some informal dialogues and back-channel negotiations, it has not led to a comprehensive peace agreement. Israel has expressed concerns over security, the specific terms regarding Palestinian refugees, and whether a complete return to 1967 borders is practical. Some Israeli leaders have shown interest in the initiative’s potential but have generally viewed it as a basis for discussion rather than an outright offer they can accept as-is.

Over the years, changing geopolitical dynamics, especially normalization agreements like the Abraham Accords (between Israel and the UAE, Bahrain, Morocco, and Sudan), have altered the landscape somewhat. These agreements bypass the conditions of the Arab Peace Initiative, offering normalization without addressing the Palestinian issue directly. Nonetheless, the Arab Peace Initiative remains a significant framework representing a regional consensus for peace based on a two-state solution.

[Gary Childress]

One hopes the Biden administration will demonstrate more backbone and conform to US foreign policy standards and withhold some military aid to Israel if it continues to block humanitarian aid to Gazans.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3e9q4nylwjo

[Veritas Aequitas]

I assume Israel ought to change its religious convictions as well? The Zionist movement has been fueling a lot of the current war with Illegal settlements. I don't think an "eye for an eye" is an effective strategy for peace if both sides adopt the position. (Not that Israel isn't trying to take more than an "eye" from the Palestinians in the present situation.)

The root cause to peace is the religion which in their Q.. condone the extermination of the Jews.

If and when peace is established, the boundaries should be fixed precisely [with GPS co-ordinates] legalize within the International Court of Justice, then there is no room for further illegal land grabbers.
To deal with and eliminate the root cause, we have to get rid of the religion and eventually all religions which would include Judaism and its offshoot Zionism.
In the meantime, it must be make known the ultimate root cause is from that evil laden religion.

I also question the accuracy of the current crisis being fueled solely by religion. The Palestinians want a place to live. That is a pretty universal human sentiment and certainly everyone ought to have a place to live that isn't an open air prison--unless they are actually guilty of something. Religion certainly provides strength and conviction to do things, even if they are the wrong things to do, but it seems like maybe more than just a religious matter. Arab states at the UN recently have reiterated that they will guarantee Israel peace in exchange for a Palestinian state on pre-1967 borders. In my opinion, Israel ought to swallow a little ambition and hubris and come to the table for everyone's benefit, not just their own. Otherwise, all this is just going to keep on escalating until everyone is dragged in and destroyed.

I believe you are so that familiar with the essence of that Religion [I....].

Btw, I read, there was no original Palestinians in that location.
There were only Arabs of various denominations who migrated there to work under the British.
It is fair, they want a place to live.
Note, 21.1% of Israelists are classified as 'Arabs'.
So why can't the Gazan Arabs who invented themselves as Palestinians live as Israelists with strong democracy. Again the root cause in their case is that divisive evil laden religion.

I read, when Israel retreated from Gaza, there was hope that Gaza could be developed like another Singapore. The Israelists left thousands of Greenhouses and various infrastructures to the Gazan to start off development.
But then they [were duped? and] elected HAMAS with a Charter that explicitly stating their goal [in alignment with their religion] is to the get rid of the Jews from the whole of Israel.
This is how Iran [Shia] got involved their arch enemies HAMAS [Sunni] in attempt to achieve their shared religious driven goals.
It is predicted if Iran achieved its goal in getting rid of Israel from the middle east, their next targets will be getting rid of the other Arab Sunni countries to propagate their Shia teachings, then the West.

So, we must focus on and deal with the ultimate root cause which is that evil laden religion; the proximate and secondary causes to be given lesser attention.

[Age]

I assume Israel ought to change its religious convictions as well? The Zionist movement has been fueling a lot of the current war with Illegal settlements. I don't think an "eye for an eye" is an effective strategy for peace if both sides adopt the position. (Not that Israel isn't trying to take more than an "eye" from the Palestinians in the present situation.)

The root cause to peace is the religion which in their Q.. condone the extermination of the Jews.

If and when peace is established, the boundaries should be fixed precisely [with GPS co-ordinates] legalize within the International Court of Justice, then there is no room for further illegal land grabbers.
To deal with and eliminate the root cause, we have to get rid of the religion and eventually all religions which would include Judaism and its offshoot Zionism.
In the meantime, it must be make known the ultimate root cause is from that evil laden religion.

I also question the accuracy of the current crisis being fueled solely by religion. The Palestinians want a place to live. That is a pretty universal human sentiment and certainly everyone ought to have a place to live that isn't an open air prison--unless they are actually guilty of something. Religion certainly provides strength and conviction to do things, even if they are the wrong things to do, but it seems like maybe more than just a religious matter. Arab states at the UN recently have reiterated that they will guarantee Israel peace in exchange for a Palestinian state on pre-1967 borders. In my opinion, Israel ought to swallow a little ambition and hubris and come to the table for everyone's benefit, not just their own. Otherwise, all this is just going to keep on escalating until everyone is dragged in and destroyed.

I believe you are so that familiar with the essence of that Religion [I....].

Btw, I read, there was no original Palestinians in that location.
There were only Arabs of various denominations who migrated there to work under the British.
It is fair, they want a place to live.
Note, 21.1% of Israelists are classified as 'Arabs'.
So why can't the Gazan Arabs who invented themselves as Palestinians live as Israelists with strong democracy. Again the root cause in their case is that divisive evil laden religion.

I read, when Israel retreated from Gaza, there was hope that Gaza could be developed like another Singapore. The Israelists left thousands of Greenhouses and various infrastructures to the Gazan to start off development.
But then they [were duped? and] elected HAMAS with a Charter that explicitly stating their goal [in alignment with their religion] is to the get rid of the Jews from the whole of Israel.
This is how Iran [Shia] got involved their arch enemies HAMAS [Sunni] in attempt to achieve their shared religious driven goals.
It is predicted if Iran achieved its goal in getting rid of Israel from the middle east, their next targets will be getting rid of the other Arab Sunni countries to propagate their Shia teachings, then the West.

So, we must focus on and deal with the ultimate root cause which is that evil laden religion; the proximate and secondary causes to be given lesser attention.

But you have said before that "christianity" is the evil laden religion.

[Walker]

What if we (Americans) are morally wrong to back Israel and enable Israel's campaign in Gaza? What if Israel is morally wrong in its conduct of the war against Gaza? Then what? Do we keep doing what we are doing even though it would be morally wrong to do so? What would be said of us in the end? Would it not matter? What would God think of us? Would it not matter?

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024 ... ia-incited

Finally, the question: ARE we morally wrong? Is Israel morally wrong? And how can we know or find out an answer to that question in the middle of a war?

Is it a war or a genocide?

[Walker]

If it’s a war then Hamas should not have kicked the Big Dog if they expected to win, which makes their attack on 10-7 a pawn move to instigate a war in the big picture of destroying the West.

If it’s a genocide, then it’s immoral.

[seeds]

Let's see now...

...Are we Americans morally wrong to supply money, weaponry, and tactical support to help a group of people slaughter thousands of innocent men, women, and children who were violently expelled from their homes and lands and forced (by the people we are supporting) to subsist for decades in what has been called an "open-air prison"?

Hmm, that's a tough one, Gary. Let me think about it for a while.


_______

The pushback seems to generally be that Israel has no choice but to destroy Hamas, that Hamas would keep firing rockets at them if Israel doesn't fight back...

Yes, and the pushback always seems to completely ignore the fundamental reason for the existence of Hamas in the first place.

Care to guess what that might be, Gary?

...and that Israel couldn't retaliate effectively without harming civilians because Hamas had stationed most of its military assets around civilian centers...

The following image...



...is an arial photograph of the town I grew up in back in the 50s and 60s. It is a suburb of Detroit, Michigan called Hazel Park. It is 2.82 square miles in size and is rectangularly delineated by four large roads in the middle area of the photograph.

As of 2022, the population density of that tiny area called Hazel Park was 5,346 people per square mile.

Well, the population density of the 5 by 25-mile stretch of land (outdoor prison/concentration camp) called Gaza is estimated to be 15,603 people per square mile, almost 3 times the population density of that cramped little area called Hazel Park in the above photo.

And the point is that no matter where Hamas (Palestinian freedom fighters) stations itself (be it underground or on the surface), it is bound to be near civilians.

They (the Gazans) are a desperate people who are being oppressed by a group of land grabbers who are not only in possession of nuclear weaponry but are backed by the most powerful military on the planet.

In which case, is it reasonable to assume that they (the Gazans/Palestinians) are supposed to deal with their oppressors under the equivalent of some sort of Marquess of Queensberry rules?

Of course, there's fog of war right now that makes finding truth difficult, so it's difficult to know what is true and what isn't true.

The truth is not difficult at all, Gary, for it's been obvious for many decades now...

• 1. It was immoral for the West to hand over lands that belonged to someone else to the Jewish people.
  
  2. It is immoral for the Jews to treat the Gazans in pretty much the same way that the Germans treated the Jews.
  
  3. It is immoral of us (Americans) to help perpetuate this horrible situation.

However, as I have pointed out many times before, that's nothing compared to the real depths of America's immorality as seen in how America's former Secretary of State - Madelaine Albright - once stated that the deaths of 500,000 (that's five hundred thousand) Iraqi children was "...worth the price..." of attaining one of America's imperialistic goals.

We are in for some serious karmic blowback, Gary.
_______

Gary, if you (or anyone else) are truly interested in having a better understanding of the Gaza situation, then do yourself a favor and watch this short little (9-minute) YouTube video on the history of what led up to what happened on Oct. 7, 2023, in Israel...

https://youtu.be/LzOQ-vhF7Hg

And if you want to hear a heartfelt and passionate outpouring of frustration and anger over the slaughter of children and the genocide that Israel and America are carrying out over there, then have a listen to this guy...

https://youtu.be/_OlKGD0_19E
_______

[accelafine]

Hamas propaganda blah propaganda blah blah...

Weird that they keep churning out fake videos of 'slaughtered children'. You would think that with a 'genocide' there would be no shortage of bodies to film You would also think that if Hamas cares about the 'genocide' of the children it beloves so much then it would return the hostages so that said 'slaughter' discontinues You would also think Hamas might consider not making schools and hospitals into weapons storage facilities, and moving their 'beloved' children to safer places instead of using them as human shields hoping they will get killed so they can use them for political gain The trouble is that Israel is being too careful so there aren't the abundance of dead bodies that Hamas was hoping for, hence the videos.

[popeye1945]

What if we (Americans) are morally wrong to back Israel and enable Israel's campaign in Gaza? What if Israel is morally wrong in its conduct of the war against Gaza? Then what? Do we keep doing what we are doing even though it would be morally wrong to do so? What would be said of us in the end? Would it not matter? What would God think of us? Would it not matter?

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024 ... ia-incited

Finally, the question: ARE we morally wrong? Is Israel morally wrong? And how can we know or find out an answer to that question in the middle of a war?

The world community finds the war in Gaza not to be a war, but an example of genocide, of ethnic cleansing. Both the American House of Isreal and Zionist Isreal are evil forces in the world today. The American House of Isreal, called that because the government has been usurped by Zionist Jews, and Isreal itself, clings to the tradition of colonization and indeed world domination. Supernatural beings for me have nothing to do with judging morality, The world will find America and Zionist Israel guilty of mass murder unless these evil forces are successful in dominating the world.

[Age]

Hamas propaganda blah propaganda blah blah...

Weird that they keep churning out fake videos of 'slaughtered children'.

WHERE, EXACTLY, do you KEEP 'seeing' these so-called 'fake videos of slaughtered children', "accelafine", besides, of course, from in your IMAGINATION, ONLY?

You would think that with a 'genocide' there would be no shortage of bodies to film

The NUMBERS, themselves, REVEAL, SHOW, and PROVE the GENOCIDE, ITSELF.

You would also think that if Hamas cares about the 'genocide' of the children it beloves so much then it would return the hostages so that said 'slaughter' discontinues

you could also think that if "israel" did NOT want some form of RETALIATION, then they COULD HAVE and WOULD HAVE STOPPED the DISPOSSESSION, the ENCROACHMENT, the DISPLACEMENT, the OPPRESSION, the TERROR, the WARRING, the SLAUGHTERING, and/or the GENOCIDE A LONG time AGO.

But, then again, because you do NOT 'see' ABSOLUTELY ANY OF 'this', you will ALSO NOT JUST 'think' ABOUT ANY OF this, neither.

You would also think Hamas might consider not making schools and hospitals into weapons storage facilities, and moving their 'beloved' children to safer places instead of using them as human shields hoping they will get killed so they can use them for political gain

LOL Here IS ANOTHER PRIME example of 'CONFIRMATION BIAS' and ONLY SEEING what one WANTS TO SEE, ONLY.

'This one' could NOT PROVIDE A BETTER example of JUST HOW "ONE SIDED", CLOSED, and BLIND some human beings COULD BECOME and EVEN HAD BECOME.

LOL It does NOT MATTER, ONE IOTA, TO 'this one' HOW MANY CHILDREN ARE CONTINUALLY 'DYING', here, 'this one', OBVIOUSLY, DOES NOT CARE ONE IOTA ABOUT ABSOLUTELY ANY OF 'them'.

The ONLY thing that 'this one' CARES ABOUT, here, IS its OWN "ONE SIDED" VIEW and PERSPECTIVE OF things. Thus, REVEALING and PROVING its OWN RELIGIOUS THEOLOGICAL "SIDE", BELIEF, and POSITION.

Which REALLY IS, and WAS, JUST HOW SAD 'life', itself, HAD BECOME when people like 'this one' ARE, and WERE, AROUND.

The trouble is that Israel is being too careful so there aren't the abundance of dead bodies that Hamas was hoping for, hence the videos.

LOL Could 'this one' GET MORE "ONE SIDED", DELUSIONAL, and INSANE, here?

LOL The people FROM "Israel", ONCE AGAIN, JUST KILLED HUNDREDS OF human beings, 'woman', AND even CHILDREN INCLUDED, but 'this one' BELIEVES and CLAIMS that "Israel" is being LAUGHINGLY CALLED 'too careful'.

How DO people like "accelafine", here, BECOME SO CRUEL, and SO UN-EMPATHETIC?

(The ANSWER, by the way, IS OBVIOUS. But, AGAIN SADLY, 'these people', here, BACK when this was being written had NOT YET LEARNED WHY.)

[Age]

What if we (Americans) are morally wrong to back Israel and enable Israel's campaign in Gaza? What if Israel is morally wrong in its conduct of the war against Gaza? Then what? Do we keep doing what we are doing even though it would be morally wrong to do so? What would be said of us in the end? Would it not matter? What would God think of us? Would it not matter?

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024 ... ia-incited

Finally, the question: ARE we morally wrong? Is Israel morally wrong? And how can we know or find out an answer to that question in the middle of a war?

The world community finds the war in Gaza not to be a war, but an example of genocide, of ethnic cleansing. Both the American House of Isreal and Zionist Isreal are evil forces in the world today. The American House of Isreal, called that because the government has been usurped by Zionist Jews, and Isreal itself, clings to the tradition of colonization and indeed world domination. Supernatural beings for me have nothing to do with judging morality, The world will find America and Zionist Israel guilty of mass murder unless these evil forces are successful in dominating the world.

'The world/Universe', Itself will NOT 'find' 'these human beings guilty' BECAUSE 'the world/Universe' ALREADY KNOWS that 'these people' ARE ABSOLUTELY GUILTY, ALREADY.

What 'the world/Universe' ALREADY KNOWS, and ALREADY FINDS ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS, IS that some people think or BELIEVE that 'the one' who is ORCHESTRATING, ORDERING, and/or SUPPORTING THE 'DEATHS' of ACTUAL HUMAN CHILDREN, in NOT JUST 'these lands' above here, but ALSO ON 'other lands' wants 'world peace'. Thus, ANOTHER PRIME example of just HOW SIMPLY and EASILY adult human beings, in the days when this was being written, COULD BE and WERE ABSOLUTELY TRICKED, FOOLED, AND DECEIVED.

[accelafine]

Gee, I wonder when the last accurate census was done by Gaza strippers. Let's just pull a figure out of our arse that keeps Western autistic Jew-haters happy. Meanwhile we will continue to use our own disposable children as human shields and then blame it on 'the Jews'. BWHAAHAHAAHAAAA

[Age]

Gee, I wonder when the last accurate census was done by Gaza strippers. Let's just pull a figure out of our arse that keeps Western autistic Jew-haters happy.

WHY do you HATE so-called "jew-haters" BUT LOVE those who KILL the CHILDREN OF OTHER "religions"?

WHY are you A HATER of those who are NOT OF the "jewish-religion"?

AND, LOL if 'this one' is 'TRYING TO' imply that I AM A "jew-hater". If it IS, then 'this one' IS MORE DELUSIONAL that it HAS BEEN SHOWING and REVEALING SO FAR.

Meanwhile we will continue to use our own disposable children as human shields and then blame it on 'the Jews'. BWHAAHAHAAHAAAA

AGAIN, 'this one's' ABSOLUTE HATRED OF CHILDREN, of the "other side", REARS ITS, OBVIOUS, UGLY HEAD.

This IS TWICE, now, that 'this one' has SHOWN and REVEAL HOW it HATES SOME CHILDREN.

it HAS SHOWN, and CONTINUALLY REVEALS, its LOVE OF ADULTS OF one particular religion, and EVEN MORE SO WHEN those SAME ones ARE KILLING, MURDERING, MAIMING, and BURNING ABSOLUTELY COMPLETELY INNOCENT HUMAN CHILDREN and HUMAN BABIES.

Some people REALLY WERE that BARBARIC and LACKING OF ABSOLUTELY ALL EMPATHY.

[accelafine]

Autistic know-nothing freak with compulsive argumentative disorder can fuck off.

[Age]

Autistic know-nothing freak with compulsive argumentative disorder can fuck off.

So, ONCE AGAIN, what 'we' can CLEARLY SEE, here, is ANOTHER one WITH ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL FOR its CLAIMS, and BELIEFS, here.

its OBVIOUS HATRED OF others, and its LOVE FOR ADULTS who DISPLACE, MAIM, BURN, and KILL CHILDREN IS JUST AS OBVIOUS.

its HATRED of 'those' who HATE adults who ARE DOING 'those things' TO CHILDREN, is ALSO VERY CLEAR and JUST AS OBVIOUS.