Challenge accepted, I'll think about it after work. I love psychological mysteries.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 6:06 amThere's something even more fundamentally odd here.Atla wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 4:16 am Someone in their 50s? 60s?, who still has no idea what psychological control is and why some people are acquitted on grounds of insanity. If that's not autism (deficiency in the theory of mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind) then what is it?
The article:Iambiguous:One good reason not to blame the kleptomaniac is that she cannot help her behavior. She possesses a psychological problem that is out of her control. That’s why some defendants are acquitted on grounds of insanity. If you are not in control of your actions, you are not responsible for those actions.Read that passage from the article. Try to find a way to interpret it that entails the writer is assuming psychological problems are illusions.Again, the assumption being that psychological problems themselves are just illusions.
compatibilism
Re: compatibilism
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Iwannaplato
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Re: compatibilism
You might be creative enough to find a way. And I'd certainly give it a shot myself at gunpoint.Atla wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 6:33 amChallenge accepted, I'll think about it after work. I love psychological mysteries.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 6:06 amThere's something even more fundamentally odd here.Atla wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 4:16 am Someone in their 50s? 60s?, who still has no idea what psychological control is and why some people are acquitted on grounds of insanity. If that's not autism (deficiency in the theory of mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind) then what is it?
The article:Iambiguous:One good reason not to blame the kleptomaniac is that she cannot help her behavior. She possesses a psychological problem that is out of her control. That’s why some defendants are acquitted on grounds of insanity. If you are not in control of your actions, you are not responsible for those actions.Read that passage from the article. Try to find a way to interpret it that entails the writer is assuming psychological problems are illusions.Again, the assumption being that psychological problems themselves are just illusions.![]()
But X leads to behaviors that a person cannot control; therefore X is an illusion
is a seroius challenge.
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Flannel Jesus
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Re: compatibilism
X has real world consequences, therefore X is an illusion. This is your brain on drugs kids. You don't want to end up like iambiguous.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 6:49 am
But X leads to behaviors that a person cannot control; therefore X is an illusion
is a seroius challenge.
Re: compatibilism
Iambiguous blurts out nonsense without thinking.
When you show that it's nonsense, he can't remember having written it or he ignores you or "he could never have not written it".
When you show that it's nonsense, he can't remember having written it or he ignores you or "he could never have not written it".
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Iwannaplato
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Re: compatibilism
I don't remember him being this sytematically off in his reading of the people and articles he quotes. I can't be sure, perhaps I didn't focus enough on his responses to other people and articles. It certainly seemed like this, often, in his responses to my posts, so I can't be sure there has been a change. But it is truly remarkable and to the degree that I wonder if it is clinical and not personality-caused.Flannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:09 pmX has real world consequences, therefore X is an illusion. This is your brain on drugs kids. You don't want to end up like iambiguous.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 6:49 am
But X leads to behaviors that a person cannot control; therefore X is an illusion
is a seroius challenge.
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Flannel Jesus
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Re: compatibilism
I, on the contrary, can't remember any time ever where he put real good-faith effort to understand the information he seeks out.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:34 pm I don't remember him being this sytematically off in his reading of the people and articles he quotes.
There is, of course, a front-facing show of genuine curiosity, but that is a bit of a mirage, an illusion that disappears as you step into it.
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Iwannaplato
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Re: compatibilism
A. PseudolisteningFlannel Jesus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:44 pm I, on the contrary, can't remember any time ever where he put real good-faith effort to understand the information he seeks out.
There is, of course, a front-facing show of genuine curiosity, but that is a bit of a mirage, an illusion that disappears as you step into it.
Forming your response to the speaker instead of focusing on what is being said.
Preoccupation, when there is too much on the mind of the listener, so that they cannot listen.
Preexisting familiarity with the topic of conversation, which results in less effort to actively listen.
B. Cognitive Inflexibility and OCD - not making a diagnosis, just noticing a similar pattern:
1. Intolerance of Ambiguity LOL or Alternative Views: Due to a strong need for control and certainty, they may struggle with open-ended answers or ambiguity in others’ responses. This can lead them to repeatedly ask for clarification or even argue with responses that don’t align with their need for a definitive answer.
2. Difficulty Accepting New Perspectives: Cognitive rigidity often manifests as a “closed-minded” style of engagement, meaning they may have difficulty engaging with or accepting differing viewpoints. In a discussion, this might look like dismissive or repetitive arguments that reject opposing viewpoints rather than genuinely exploring them.
3. Hyperfocus on Specific Topics: Due to OCD’s focal nature, a user might dominate discussions on certain subjects related to their obsessions, posting extensively or monopolizing threads to ensure all aspects of their concerns are addressed.
Cognitive inflexibility in OCD often reinforces the individual's need for reassurance and certainty, resulting in recurring behaviors and responses that can feel rigid or closed to discussion partners or friends and relatives. Over time, this can lead to tensions with others if their communication is perceived as repetitive and dismissive of others’ viewpoints. This pattern highlights the intersection of mental health and communication skills.
Addendum: The fear of dasein and its effects on communication
If one has decided that due to dasein one's opinions can simply change, that one is a kind of mere vessal for ideas, and a series of experiences has and can again change ones views NOT really engaging with new perspectives could be a kind of defense mechanism. One comes to a kind of supposedly non-belief limbo. In actual fact Iambiguous believes lots of things, but generally refuses to justify these things in response to queries and counters by others. If he interprets an article one way and someone challenges this and then justifies it based on the text, Iambiguous does not then point out what leads him to his interpretation. Instead one gets some kind of abstract general dismissal (intellectual contraption): 'of course we both may well be compelled to think our interpretations are correct. End of discussion. There is never an attempt to actually see and show what process led to his interpretation. So, the entire justification of positions is off the table. Which leads to total statis. We could look at that as an unfortunate side effects of poor communication habits and, yes, a lack of curiosity, or we could look at that as the goal. Never again tossed around by the whims of dasein.
Re: compatibilism
Well I'm not certain, let's see:Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 6:49 am You might be creative enough to find a way. And I'd certainly give it a shot myself at gunpoint.
But X leads to behaviors that a person cannot control; therefore X is an illusion
is a seroius challenge.
Imo what is fairly clear is that Iambig has fundamentally failed to understand every human being he has ever met, because of his autism or similar condition that comes with a clinical deficiency in the theory of mind.iambiguous wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:09 amThis is the part where some will insist human psychology evolved in such a way that our desires, emotions, intuitions and other "internal components" of "I" just somehow acquired autonomy. It's only a matter of time before science confirms this. In the interim nature has created a human psychology that is able to delude us into thinking that we really do have free will.But why shouldn’t we blame the kleptomaniac? That is to say, how are we justified in holding the kleptomaniac morally responsible? One good reason not to blame the kleptomaniac is that she cannot help her behavior. She possesses a psychological problem that is out of her control. That’s why some defendants are acquitted on grounds of insanity. If you are not in control of your actions, you are not responsible for those actions.
He's psychologically blind. He doesn't understand what people mean by the word "psychological". He perceives little to nothing of what we call psychology. Maybe he thinks that "psychological" means "something we think (about)".
That's why he completely misunderstood the above quote too, the quote talks about our everyday psychological ability to make choices, and the loss of that ability under some circumstances. But he seems to think that the quote is about determinism, and notes that this is where some will insist that we somehow acquire ("libertarian") free-will autonomy.
And then he just seems to look at this part taken out of his above context. But I'm still not sure what he means here. Maybe he thinks that "grounds of insanity" means "because of determinism". And assuming determinism, psychological problems (= conceptual problems / problems we think about / sg. like that) don't change the fact of determinism either, so they are just illusory, made-up problems regarding the determinism/free will issue? Unless we assume that they are "real problems" in the sense that they create free will?iambiguous wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:09 amAgain, the assumption being that psychological problems themselves are just illusions.One good reason not to blame the kleptomaniac is that she cannot help her behavior. She possesses a psychological problem that is out of her control. That’s why some defendants are acquitted on grounds of insanity. If you are not in control of your actions, you are not responsible for those actions.
Dunno.. I give up..
Re: compatibilism
Ironically (or not) dasein fits in seamlessly with determinism. The time and place and experiences builds up who you are.Dasein
Libertarian free-will, on the other hand, would let you reject any aspect of dasein that you wanted.
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Iwannaplato
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Re: compatibilism
...or that happened. I mean, if you wanted to reject a part of dasein, that would be coming from your nature or your nurture or a combination. I am not sure how desire fits in with libertarian free will. If desire leads to a choice, that choice was causes inevitably by the prior state of the universe including your desires.
Re: compatibilism
If God came down and revealed Himself/Herself/Itself, would Iambiguous lose any free-will that he thinks he has?
He would have to follow all of God's rules to get immortality and salvation. Isn't that being compelled by God?
It sounds the same as being compelled at gunpoint to do something.
Iambiguous would lose the freedom of nihilism.
He would have to follow all of God's rules to get immortality and salvation. Isn't that being compelled by God?
It sounds the same as being compelled at gunpoint to do something.
Iambiguous would lose the freedom of nihilism.
Re: compatibilism
It seems to be that libertarian desires are mine and I'm completely in control of them....or that happened. I mean, if you wanted to reject a part of dasein, that would be coming from your nature or your nurture or a combination. I am not sure how desire fits in with libertarian free will. If desire leads to a choice, that choice was causes inevitably by the prior state of the universe including your desires.
I think that free-willers lose sight of the fact that desires came from somewhere. (Somewhere like culture, tradition, advertising
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Re: compatibilism
Compatibilism: How does it allow for moral responsibility?
r/askphilosophy at reddit
On the other hand, that may not be the way I or you or others understand it at all. For some, internal and external components are six of one, half a dozen of the other. Then those who are actually able to convince themselves that compatiblism can be defined into existence. Its meaning can be grasped objectively such that we are all obligated to share the One True Definition in our exchanges here.
You tell me.
r/askphilosophy at reddit
I've always struggled to understand how compatibilism is morally different from any type of hard determinism.
From what I understand, compatibilism states that there's a moral difference between an action that is caused by some internal cause (the subject's motivation) or some external cause (environmental causation).
On the other hand, that may not be the way I or you or others understand it at all. For some, internal and external components are six of one, half a dozen of the other. Then those who are actually able to convince themselves that compatiblism can be defined into existence. Its meaning can be grasped objectively such that we are all obligated to share the One True Definition in our exchanges here.
This encompasses what may well be the most problematic component of our discussions here. The fact [and "here and now" it certainly seems to be one] of the gap between our own "world of words" philosophical assessments and what brain scientists have been able sustain empirically as the most likely explanation. On the other hand, both philosopherss and scientists have the same brains. It's just that this doesn't seem to make much of a difference given all of the conflicting assessments we are still bombarded with centuries later.My question is, internal causation is still causation, if the event E1 leads to the event E2, which leads to the action A, how is the subject morally responsible for A? If the subject does A, because E1 happened, which led the subject to want E2, which lead the subject to do A, the action (A) is still just the causal product of the event E1. E.g., someone jumps into the pool because they want to cooldown because the heat is unbearable.
Click.The same would apply regarding external causes. E.g., someone jumps into the pool because they were pushed.
In the first case, the heat being unbearable is completely out of the subject's influence, just as being pushed is.
So, why do compatibilists seem to attribute moral responsibility to the subject's action in the first case but not on the second one?
You tell me.
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Re: compatibilism
Click [or there abouts].
Really?
Okay, given my post to you above...
iambiguous wrote: ↑Wed Oct 30, 2024 2:16 amphyllo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:53 pmI took that to mean that scientists can observe a society holding people responsible. And how do they accomplish this? Through either rewards or punishments.
The mentally ill arsonist is not being rewarded and she is not being punished. She is being "cured" so she can go back into society and she is being controlled so she cannot start more fires.
And around and around and around we go.
Okay, add society "curing" the mentally ill to your list of why free will must be the real deal.
Why? Because just thinking about not being able to hold anyone at all responsible for the terrible things we encounter in life is just unbearable to some. After all, that's why so many will always come back to a God, the God here. With God you have a guaranteed soul awash in free will...a soul able carry you over into Paradise if you embody His moral commandments.
phyllo wrote: ↑Tue Oct 29, 2024 3:53 pmThis is how society views responsibility in such cases. There are very few people who would say that the mentally ill arsonist is "not morally responsible", nothing should happen to her and she can just go home. Practically everyone understands that doing nothing is not a reasonable way to deal with the situation. This is happening now. It's not in the clouds or just in someone's head.
Again, all you doing here, in my view, is noting what does unfold out in society regarding such things as crime and punishment. Criminals, policemen, lawyers, judges, juries etc., all intertwined in any number of complex interactions. And I would never rule out autonomy here unless and until hard determinism was in fact demonstrated to exist.
What would be the result, and how would we go about determining if the experiments themselves are conducted autonomously.
Okay, in recent exchange with Atla, he noted something that reminded of you:
What, her friend isn't also determined to have that discussion with her? A discussion also wholly in sync with the laws of matter. What's crucial for me is in imagining hundreds of men and women trying to talk with her about the abortion. All, in turn, wholly determined to say only what their brain compels them too.
But all in vain because the laws of nature left Mary with no other option. Jane is toast. But in a free will world, Jane might still be toast, but there is actually the possibility she wouldn't be.
I seem to recall you making a similar argument.
...please note more specifically what you construe to be examples of nonsensical and ignorant thinking on my part.
- iambiguous
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Re: compatibilism
No, as some hard determinists seem compelled to note, my own assessment of dasein here is no less but a manifestation of the only possible reality. It is when free will does become established as the real deal that my own assessment of dasein becomes relevant.
But that only disturbs the hard core objectivists here all the more. If I argue determinism, they often go apeshit because if determinism as "I" understand it "here and now" is the real deal then their own One True Path becomes just another one of Mother Nature's inherent narratives.
But if I argue free will they often go apeshit because that's when I introduce the existential parameters of dasein into the is/ought world. The part about being fractured and fragmented then becomes a whole other concern for them.
No, say the hard determinists, Libertarianism is no less but another of Mother Nature's narratives. They think they are free only because they were never able to actually opt to think otherwise. Just as, in my view, compatibilists are never able to freely opt
not to hold everyone morally responsible for their behaviors.