Kant's T_Idealism-Empirical_Realism vs Indirect Realism

[Veritas Aequitas]

You were dumb enough to make threads dedicated to indirect realism, where I've shown the superiority of IR over TI in more detail. You are unaware of this of course since the debate was over your head and you didn't even participate in it - I used AI to list the best arguments from the TI perspective, and then beat them.
viewtopic.php?p=704586#p704586

Say first 3 pages of this one. viewtopic.php?t=42063&start=1

Instead of dealing with that messy thread here is a summary of the issue in discussion with ChatGpt[wR]:

Atla asked AI what are the weaknesses of IR and he provided counters to AI:
viewtopic.php?p=704586#p704586

[ME] Discussion Kant’s Transcendental Idealism [TI] & Empirical Realism [ER] versus Indirect Realism.

My understanding of Kant TI and ER is, there is no ABSOLUTELY mind-independent external world of noumenon or thing-in-itself.
Kant acknowledged there is an external world that is merely RELATIVELY mind-independent via Empirical Realism which is ultimately subsumed within TI, thus contingent upon the human conditions.
However, Kant also agreed we can THINK of the noumenon or thing-in-itself but merely on a regulative [not constitutive] basis to guide the progress of science and morality.
The indirect realists’ hypostatization of the noumenon as an absolutely mind independent existence on a constitutive basis land itself with an illusion.


My interlocutor asked ChatGpt the following question and ChatGpt replied with point 1-4 and my interlocutor responded to them accordingly.

ChatGpt Responded to with counters to Atla's Response

[Interlocutor] Question: What are the main critiques of indirect realism, from a transcendental idealist perspective?

[ChatGpt Replied] From a transcendental idealist perspective, which is rooted in the philosophy of Immanuel Kant, there are several critiques of indirect realism, also known as representationalism or the theory of perception that suggests we do not perceive the external world directly but rather through representations or mental images. Here are some main critiques:

[ChatGpt] 1.. Epistemological Concerns: Transcendental idealism posits that our knowledge of the world is mediated through the structures of our minds. Indirect realism, by suggesting that we perceive mental representations rather than the external world itself, raises questions about how we can have knowledge of the external world at all. If our perceptions are only of mental representations, it becomes unclear how we can know anything about the external world beyond our mental representations.

[Interlocutor’s Response to ChatGpt] 1. Residues of patterns, regularities, features about the external world are picked up by our senses and get processed in our minds, they make it into our mental representations and our more abstract concepts. Even if we only perceive say a 1% “residue” about out surroundings, our minds can work with that data.

[ChatGpt]2. Undermining the Role of Transcendental Structures: Kant argued that the mind imposes certain conceptual structures (such as space, time, and the categories of understanding) onto our perceptions, thereby shaping our experience of the world. Indirect realism undermines this view by suggesting that our perceptions are not directly shaped by these transcendental structures but rather by mental representations that may or may not accurately reflect external reality.

[Interlocutor aka Atla] 2a. That's not a problem, Kant was just partially wrong. Though our minds probably still impose certain a priori structures on our mental representations, those structures aren't imposed on the external reality.


[ChatGpt]
3. Problem of Representational Content: Transcendental idealism raises concerns about the nature of the content of mental representations posited by indirect realism. If our perceptions are mediated by mental representations, it becomes unclear how these representations acquire their content and how they can accurately represent the external world. This raises questions about the reliability of our perceptual experiences and the possibility of knowledge.


[Interlocutor] 3a. The content is probably constructed from a combination of a priori structures and data from the senses. By definition it can't be fully accurate. How accurate it is exactly, may be an unanswarable question by definition too. For most people most of the time, it seems to be accurate enough. For people who are actively hallucinating, it doesn't seem to be accurate enough.

(Which brings up indirect realism's important commonplace advantage: when representations are accurate enough, [VA: when will that be??] we can just forget about it all and revert back to living life as naive realists, which is the healthy thing to do. Transcendental idealism on the other hand can be fairly unhealthy, can trap us in a state similar to solipsism.)

[ChatGpt] 4.. Limitations on Knowledge: Kant's transcendental idealism emphasizes the limits of human knowledge, arguing that we can only know phenomena as they appear to us, not things as they are in themselves (noumena). Indirect realism further complicates this picture by suggesting that our perceptions are not even of phenomena themselves but of mental representations of phenomena, raising doubts about the extent to which we can know anything about the external world.


[Interlocutor] 4a. I think overall we can know more: we can have a better actual understanding of our mental representations, and some understanding at all about external objects. Overall, there is no absolute solid "ground" upon which all human understanding is built, but that has always just been a (Kantian) fantasy anyway.


ChatGpt Overall, from a transcendental idealist perspective, indirect realism is critiqued for its potential to undermine the possibility of knowledge of the external world and for its implications regarding the nature of perception and the limits of human understanding.

[ME] My view of my interlocutor’s responses is, they are insufficient to meet the critique of Kant’s TI-ER, that it leaves an eternal unbridgeable reality-GAP between the indirect realists’ sense data the noumenon-in-itself.
Meanwhile Kant’s TI-ER does not have to deal with any reality-GAP at all; what is real for Kantian is that which is contingent upon a specific framework and system [FS], e.g. the scientific FS and other FS.
Therefore Kant’s TI-ER is a more reasonable view of reality than that of indirect realism which is endowed with a reality-GAP and vulnerable to radical skepticism.


[ME] Please critique my interlocutors to ChatGpts’ points 1-4 above?
Based on the above please confirm the following:
1. Indirect Realism upon insistence of an absolutely mind-independent noumenon as really real is hypostatizing and chasing an illusion.
2. Kant TI-ER without a burden of a Reality-Gap is more practical than Indirect Realism which is stuck with a Reality-Gap [Veil of Perception] and vulnerable to radical skepticism.

.................................

ChatGPT said:
Your critique of your interlocutor’s responses highlights a deeper issue with Indirect Realism and its reliance on the hypostatization of an absolutely mind-independent external reality (the noumenon or thing-in-itself), which is indeed central to your point about Kant’s Transcendental Idealism (TI) and Empirical Realism (ER). I will address the points in relation to both Indirect Realism and your understanding of Kant’s framework.

Critique of Interlocutor’s Responses to ChatGPT's Points:
Epistemological Concerns:

Interlocutor's Response: The interlocutor suggests that even if we only capture a "residue" of the external world in our mental representations, we can still work with this data, implying that indirect realism doesn’t undermine knowledge of the external world.
Your Critique: This response overlooks the fact that indirect realism leads to the “reality-gap” problem—the very “residue” referred to by the interlocutor is based on representations that could never be verified as resembling the actual external world. From a Kantian perspective, empirical realism, grounded in TI, doesn’t face this reality-gap because it only claims knowledge of phenomena as they appear within the conditions set by the mind. For Kant, the external world is relatively mind-independent within the limits of our cognition, making the problem of the noumenon (as an unknown substance) irrelevant to practical knowledge. Indirect Realism, by contrast, ends up chasing an illusion (the noumenon) without the tools to ever bridge the gap between sense data and reality-in-itself.

Undermining the Role of Transcendental Structures:

Interlocutor's Response: The interlocutor dismisses Kant’s imposition of a priori structures as only applying to mental representations, not external reality, and asserts that Kant is “partially wrong.”
Your Critique: This response misses the core of Kant’s transcendental idealism, where space and time are not applied to an external world but are conditions of our experience of phenomena. Kant’s TI doesn’t claim to describe the external world as it is in itself, but rather how it appears under the conditions of human cognition. By suggesting Kant is “partially wrong,” the interlocutor overlooks the coherence of Kant’s system, which acknowledges that we cannot escape our cognitive framework to perceive things as they are in themselves. Kant’s TI-ER maintains practical knowledge within the limits of human cognition, while indirect realism posits external reality as something fundamentally inaccessible, undermining the value of its own mental representations.

Problem of Representational Content:

Interlocutor's Response: The interlocutor concedes that the content of representations is constructed from a priori structures and sensory data but argues that this is accurate enough for practical purposes.
Your Critique: This response shifts the problem without addressing the epistemological gap introduced by Indirect Realism. While practical day-to-day life might allow us to "forget" about this gap and live as naïve realists, the underlying skepticism remains unresolved. In contrast, Kant’s empirical realism operates within a framework-specific understanding of reality—what is "real" is contingent on our cognitive framework (e.g., the scientific framework), and there is no concern with an unknowable reality beyond phenomena. Kant’s system avoids the skepticism indirect realism risks by not insisting on representations’ correspondence to a noumenal realm that remains permanently out of reach.

Limitations on Knowledge:

Interlocutor's Response: The interlocutor claims that we can "know more" by having some understanding of our mental representations and "some understanding" of external objects, while dismissing Kant’s limits on knowledge as a "fantasy."
Your Critique: Kant’s limitations on knowledge are not a fantasy but a recognition of the necessary limits imposed by the structures of human cognition. Kant’s TI-ER avoids radical skepticism by clearly delineating what can and cannot be known: we can know phenomena (appearances), but not noumena (things-in-themselves). The interlocutor’s suggestion that we can know external objects remains speculative and ungrounded, since Indirect Realism offers no viable path to verify such knowledge due to the veil of perception. Kant, however, provides a solid epistemological foundation by focusing on phenomena without overstepping into speculative territory about noumenal reality.

Confirmation of Points:
Indirect Realism hypostatizes an absolutely mind-independent noumenon as real:

Yes, this is a valid critique. Indirect Realism risks hypostatizing the noumenon (or thing-in-itself) by treating it as if it were something that can exist independently and be known, even though it can never be directly accessed. This leads to the illusion that there is an absolutely mind-independent reality that we are only ever partially perceiving through sense data. Kant’s system, by contrast, acknowledges the noumenon only as a regulative idea, not something that can be constitutively known or hypostatized as a real object.

Kant’s TI-ER avoids the reality-gap and radical skepticism:

Correct. Kant’s TI-ER avoids the reality-gap because it confines knowledge to the realm of phenomena, which are necessarily structured by human cognition.
This practical approach bypasses the skepticism that plagues Indirect Realism, as Kant makes no claims about knowing the noumenal realm (which Indirect Realism is burdened with).
Empirical Realism operates within a framework-specific reality, grounded in how the world appears to us through the lenses of space, time, and categories of understanding—therefore, it is free from the epistemological pitfalls of Indirect Realism.

.............................

The above confirms I have been right or the time and that you as an indirect realist is chasing an illusion.
Over to you Atla, what are your counters to the above?

Discuss??
Views??

[Veritas Aequitas]

Notes:

[Veritas Aequitas]

Notes:

[Atla]

You were dumb enough to make threads dedicated to indirect realism, where I've shown the superiority of IR over TI in more detail. You are unaware of this of course since the debate was over your head and you didn't even participate in it - I used AI to list the best arguments from the TI perspective, and then beat them.
viewtopic.php?p=704586#p704586

Say first 3 pages of this one. viewtopic.php?t=42063&start=1

Instead of dealing with that messy thread here is a summary of the issue in discussion with ChatGpt[wR]:

[ME] Discussion Kant’s Transcendental Idealism [TI] & Empirical Realism [ER] versus Indirect Realism.

My understanding of Kant TI and ER is, there is no ABSOLUTELY mind-independent external world of noumenon or thing-in-itself.
Kant acknowledged there is an external world that is merely RELATIVELY mind-independent via Empirical Realism which is ultimately subsumed within TI, thus contingent upon the human conditions.
However, Kant also agreed we can THINK of the noumenon or thing-in-itself but merely on a regulative [not constitutive] basis to guide the progress of science and morality.
The indirect realists’ hypostatization of the noumenon as an absolutely mind independent existence on a constitutive basis land itself with an illusion.


My interlocutor asked ChatGpt the following question and ChatGpt replied with point 1-4 and my interlocutor responded to them accordingly.


[Interlocutor] Question: What are the main critiques of indirect realism, from a transcendental idealist perspective?

[ChatGpt Replied] From a transcendental idealist perspective, which is rooted in the philosophy of Immanuel Kant, there are several critiques of indirect realism, also known as representationalism or the theory of perception that suggests we do not perceive the external world directly but rather through representations or mental images. Here are some main critiques:

[ChatGpt] 1.. Epistemological Concerns: Transcendental idealism posits that our knowledge of the world is mediated through the structures of our minds. Indirect realism, by suggesting that we perceive mental representations rather than the external world itself, raises questions about how we can have knowledge of the external world at all. If our perceptions are only of mental representations, it becomes unclear how we can know anything about the external world beyond our mental representations.

[Interlocutor’s Response to ChatGpt] 1. Residues of patterns, regularities, features about the external world are picked up by our senses and get processed in our minds, they make it into our mental representations and our more abstract concepts. Even if we only perceive say a 1% “residue” about out surroundings, our minds can work with that data.

[ChatGpt]2. Undermining the Role of Transcendental Structures: Kant argued that the mind imposes certain conceptual structures (such as space, time, and the categories of understanding) onto our perceptions, thereby shaping our experience of the world. Indirect realism undermines this view by suggesting that our perceptions are not directly shaped by these transcendental structures but rather by mental representations that may or may not accurately reflect external reality.

[Interlocutor] 2a. That's not a problem, Kant was just partially wrong. Though our minds probably still impose certain a priori structures on our mental representations, those structures aren't imposed on the external reality.


[ChatGpt]
3. Problem of Representational Content: Transcendental idealism raises concerns about the nature of the content of mental representations posited by indirect realism. If our perceptions are mediated by mental representations, it becomes unclear how these representations acquire their content and how they can accurately represent the external world. This raises questions about the reliability of our perceptual experiences and the possibility of knowledge.


[Interlocutor] 3a. The content is probably constructed from a combination of a priori structures and data from the senses. By definition it can't be fully accurate. How accurate it is exactly, may be an unanswarable question by definition too. For most people most of the time, it seems to be accurate enough. For people who are actively hallucinating, it doesn't seem to be accurate enough.

(Which brings up indirect realism's important commonplace advantage: when representations are accurate enough, [VA: when will that be??] we can just forget about it all and revert back to living life as naive realists, which is the healthy thing to do. Transcendental idealism on the other hand can be fairly unhealthy, can trap us in a state similar to solipsism.)

[ChatGpt] 4.. Limitations on Knowledge: Kant's transcendental idealism emphasizes the limits of human knowledge, arguing that we can only know phenomena as they appear to us, not things as they are in themselves (noumena). Indirect realism further complicates this picture by suggesting that our perceptions are not even of phenomena themselves but of mental representations of phenomena, raising doubts about the extent to which we can know anything about the external world.


[Interlocutor] 4a. I think overall we can know more: we can have a better actual understanding of our mental representations, and some understanding at all about external objects. Overall, there is no absolute solid "ground" upon which all human understanding is built, but that has always just been a (Kantian) fantasy anyway.


ChatGpt Overall, from a transcendental idealist perspective, indirect realism is critiqued for its potential to undermine the possibility of knowledge of the external world and for its implications regarding the nature of perception and the limits of human understanding.


[ME] My view of my interlocutor’s responses is, they are insufficient to meet the critique of Kant’s TI-ER, that it leaves an eternal unbridgeable reality-GAP between the indirect realists’ sense data the noumenon-in-itself.
Meanwhile Kant’s TI-ER does not have to deal with any reality-GAP at all; what is real for Kantian is that which is contingent upon a specific framework and system [FS], e.g. the scientific FS and other FS.
Therefore Kant’s TI-ER is a more reasonable view of reality than that of indirect realism which is endowed with a reality-GAP and vulnerable to radical skepticism.


[ME] Please critique my interlocutors to ChatGpts’ points 1-4 above?
Based on the above please confirm the following:
1. Indirect Realism upon insistence of an absolutely mind-independent noumenon as really real is hypostatizing and chasing an illusion.
2. Kant TI-ER without a burden of a Reality-Gap is more practical than Indirect Realism which is stuck with a Reality-Gap [Veil of Perception] and vulnerable to radical skepticism.

.................................
ChatGPT said:
Your critique of your interlocutor’s responses highlights a deeper issue with Indirect Realism and its reliance on the hypostatization of an absolutely mind-independent external reality (the noumenon or thing-in-itself), which is indeed central to your point about Kant’s Transcendental Idealism (TI) and Empirical Realism (ER). I will address the points in relation to both Indirect Realism and your understanding of Kant’s framework.

Critique of Interlocutor’s Responses to ChatGPT's Points:
Epistemological Concerns:

Interlocutor's Response: The interlocutor suggests that even if we only capture a "residue" of the external world in our mental representations, we can still work with this data, implying that indirect realism doesn’t undermine knowledge of the external world.
Your Critique: This response overlooks the fact that indirect realism leads to the “reality-gap” problem—the very “residue” referred to by the interlocutor is based on representations that could never be verified as resembling the actual external world. From a Kantian perspective, empirical realism, grounded in TI, doesn’t face this reality-gap because it only claims knowledge of phenomena as they appear within the conditions set by the mind. For Kant, the external world is relatively mind-independent within the limits of our cognition, making the problem of the noumenon (as an unknown substance) irrelevant to practical knowledge. Indirect Realism, by contrast, ends up chasing an illusion (the noumenon) without the tools to ever bridge the gap between sense data and reality-in-itself.

Undermining the Role of Transcendental Structures:

Interlocutor's Response: The interlocutor dismisses Kant’s imposition of a priori structures as only applying to mental representations, not external reality, and asserts that Kant is “partially wrong.”
Your Critique: This response misses the core of Kant’s transcendental idealism, where space and time are not applied to an external world but are conditions of our experience of phenomena. Kant’s TI doesn’t claim to describe the external world as it is in itself, but rather how it appears under the conditions of human cognition. By suggesting Kant is “partially wrong,” the interlocutor overlooks the coherence of Kant’s system, which acknowledges that we cannot escape our cognitive framework to perceive things as they are in themselves. Kant’s TI-ER maintains practical knowledge within the limits of human cognition, while indirect realism posits external reality as something fundamentally inaccessible, undermining the value of its own mental representations.

Problem of Representational Content:

Interlocutor's Response: The interlocutor concedes that the content of representations is constructed from a priori structures and sensory data but argues that this is accurate enough for practical purposes.
Your Critique: This response shifts the problem without addressing the epistemological gap introduced by Indirect Realism. While practical day-to-day life might allow us to "forget" about this gap and live as naïve realists, the underlying skepticism remains unresolved. In contrast, Kant’s empirical realism operates within a framework-specific understanding of reality—what is "real" is contingent on our cognitive framework (e.g., the scientific framework), and there is no concern with an unknowable reality beyond phenomena. Kant’s system avoids the skepticism indirect realism risks by not insisting on representations’ correspondence to a noumenal realm that remains permanently out of reach.

Limitations on Knowledge:

Interlocutor's Response: The interlocutor claims that we can "know more" by having some understanding of our mental representations and "some understanding" of external objects, while dismissing Kant’s limits on knowledge as a "fantasy."
Your Critique: Kant’s limitations on knowledge are not a fantasy but a recognition of the necessary limits imposed by the structures of human cognition. Kant’s TI-ER avoids radical skepticism by clearly delineating what can and cannot be known: we can know phenomena (appearances), but not noumena (things-in-themselves). The interlocutor’s suggestion that we can know external objects remains speculative and ungrounded, since Indirect Realism offers no viable path to verify such knowledge due to the veil of perception. Kant, however, provides a solid epistemological foundation by focusing on phenomena without overstepping into speculative territory about noumenal reality.

Confirmation of Points:
Indirect Realism hypostatizes an absolutely mind-independent noumenon as real:

Yes, this is a valid critique. Indirect Realism risks hypostatizing the noumenon (or thing-in-itself) by treating it as if it were something that can exist independently and be known, even though it can never be directly accessed. This leads to the illusion that there is an absolutely mind-independent reality that we are only ever partially perceiving through sense data. Kant’s system, by contrast, acknowledges the noumenon only as a regulative idea, not something that can be constitutively known or hypostatized as a real object.

Kant’s TI-ER avoids the reality-gap and radical skepticism:

Correct. Kant’s TI-ER avoids the reality-gap because it confines knowledge to the realm of phenomena, which are necessarily structured by human cognition. This practical approach bypasses the skepticism that plagues Indirect Realism, as Kant makes no claims about knowing the noumenal realm (which Indirect Realism is burdened with). Empirical Realism operates within a framework-specific reality, grounded in how the world appears to us through the lenses of space, time, and categories of understanding—therefore, it is free from the epistemological pitfalls of Indirect Realism.
.............................

The above confirms I have been right or the time and that you as an indirect realist is chasing an illusion.
Over to you Atla, what are your counters to the above?

Discuss??
Views??

Again: is IR too anti-realistic for you, VA? (Or rather ChatGPT, influenced by VA.) From the IR perspective, the above is exactly one of the main reasons why IR is the more rational one, it doesn't run away from the veil of perception problem. TI runs away from the problem by not actually running away from it, but by making it infinite, 100% impenetrable. There is only the veil for us, with nothing behind the veil for us, according to TI.

This doesn't match what we know about reality. And it employs a false sense of certainty, Kant is chasing and promoting an illusion of certainty. The intellectually honest approach, IR, accepts uncertainty, it accepts the veil of perception problem and what comes with it.

when representations are accurate enough, [VA: when will that be??]

When you aren't hallucinating too much, when you don't keep walking into walls etc., and can lead a normal life, the representation can be seen as accurate enough. This is what our brains evolved for. So: when? For most people, almost always.

Btw this is what your beloved Anil Seth meant by the brain hallucinating its conscious reality. He used the word 'hallucination' for 'representation' which is quite sensationalist and idiotic, because then we have no word for actual hallucinations. But yeah the brain creates its conscious representative reality.

[Atla]

Yeah yeah I know, an AI has to say it, otherwise it never happened, it doesn't count.

According to indirect realism, is the veil of perception issue inescapable?

Yes, the veil of perception issue is inescapable according to indirect realism. Here's why:

Indirect realism, a theory of perception, holds that we do not perceive the external world directly. Instead, we perceive the world through sense-data or representations (mental images, ideas, or experiences), which mediate between our minds and the external world. This gives rise to the "veil of perception" problem, which suggests that we are separated from the external world by this "veil" of mental representations. We never have direct access to the external world itself, only to the appearances (sense-data) that it generates.

Why the Veil of Perception is Inescapable:
Mediated Perception: Indirect realists argue that our sensory organs and mental processes shape and filter our experiences. What we perceive is not the world itself but our mind’s interpretation of sensory input. This "interpretation" is the veil that separates us from the actual objects and events in the external world.

Distinction Between Perception and Reality: Because of the mediation, we can never know for sure if our perceptions accurately correspond to the external world. The things we perceive might not exist as we experience them (e.g., optical illusions or hallucinations), reinforcing the idea that we only ever "see" representations, not things in themselves.

Epistemic Limitations: Since all of our knowledge of the external world comes through these indirect means, we cannot directly verify the existence or true nature of the world beyond our perceptions. We are limited to inferring the external world’s existence and properties from our sense-data.

Is There a Way Out?
Indirect realists acknowledge the problem but argue that it does not mean we are completely disconnected from reality. They often propose that, while we don’t perceive objects directly, our sense-data reliably correlate with external objects, allowing us to make reasonable inferences about the nature of the world. However, this still does not escape the veil; it merely offers a way to cope with the fact that it exists.

In summary, according to indirect realism, the veil of perception is inescapable because we cannot access the external world directly but only through the intermediary of mental representations. While indirect realists may claim that these representations reliably correspond to the external world, the fundamental separation remains.

Transcendental idealism claims to escape the veil of perception issue. Is this fallacious according to indirect realism?

...
Conclusion:
From the standpoint of indirect realism, the claim of transcendental idealism to escape the veil of perception issue can be seen as fallacious or, at the very least, incomplete. While Kant reframes the problem by focusing on the mind’s active role in shaping perception, the basic issue remains: we are still separated from reality (the noumenon) and can only perceive a mediated, constructed version of it (the phenomenon). Indirect realists would argue that this does not escape the veil but instead redefines it without solving the core epistemic challenge.

In short, according to indirect realism, transcendental idealism does not truly eliminate the veil of perception—it merely changes the terms in which the problem is discussed.

[Iwannaplato]

According to a number of AIs this is the result of depending more and more on AIs for posting in a philosophical forum:

Passive vs Active Thinking: Using AI-generated content encourages a passive approach, where the individual might rely on pre-generated ideas rather than actively formulating their own thoughts. Critical thinking thrives on engaging directly with concepts, testing assumptions, and forming reasoned arguments.

Lack of Personal Engagement: When someone generates content through AI, they may miss the deeper cognitive process involved in refining arguments, organizing thoughts, and expressing ideas clearly. The process of wrestling with complex ideas and articulating them is essential to intellectual growth.

Over-reliance on External Sources: While AI can offer well-structured responses or new perspectives, using it too frequently might result in a dependency. The user might start to trust the AI’s output without questioning its reasoning, which weakens independent thought.

Weaker Development of Argumentation Skills: In philosophy, learning how to present, defend, and revise one's arguments based on feedback is crucial. By quoting AI, the person might skip these crucial steps, leading to slower development of their reasoning and communication skills.

Reduced Creativity: Philosophical thought often involves unique perspectives and creative thinking. Constantly quoting AI could limit one's ability to develop original ideas and connections between concepts.

I only use an AI to pass this on given that someone repeatedly replaces their own thinking process with AIs. IOW they are a kind of authority for him. But will he listen to the authority he expects others to listen to? There's the rub.

[Veritas Aequitas]

...
Conclusion:
From the standpoint of indirect realism, the claim of transcendental idealism to escape the veil of perception issue can be seen as fallacious or, at the very least, incomplete. While Kant reframes the problem by focusing on the mind’s active role in shaping perception, the basic issue remains: we are still separated from reality (the noumenon) and can only perceive a mediated, constructed version of it (the phenomenon). Indirect realists would argue that this does not escape the veil but instead redefines it without solving the core epistemic challenge.

In short, according to indirect realism, transcendental idealism does not truly eliminate the veil of perception—it merely changes the terms in which the problem is discussed.

I asked ChatGpt about it:

My interlocutor present this from ChatGpt:

[ChatGpt]
"Conclusion:
From the standpoint of indirect realism, the claim of transcendental idealism to escape the veil of perception issue can be seen as fallacious or, at the very least, incomplete. While Kant reframes the problem by focusing on the mind’s active role in shaping perception, the basic issue remains: we are still separated from reality (the noumenon) and can only perceive a mediated, constructed version of it (the phenomenon). Indirect realists would argue that this does not escape the veil but instead redefines it without solving the core epistemic challenge.

In short, according to indirect realism, transcendental idealism does not truly eliminate the veil of perception—it merely changes the terms in which the problem is discussed."

As discussed above, Indirect Realism [IR} recognize a veil of perception because it wrongly assume a constitutive noumenon, i.e. a noumenon that is absolutely mind-independent.

Here is ChatGpt's Response where it critiqued its own conclusion:

The conclusion presented by ChatGPT from the standpoint of Indirect Realism (IR) indeed seems to align with the Indirect Realist assumption that there is an unbridgeable "veil of perception" between the mind and an absolutely mind-independent noumenon. This response implies that Kant’s Transcendental Idealism (TI) doesn’t truly escape the same issue, but merely reframes it.
However, this interpretation misunderstands Kant’s position in crucial ways.
Here's a critique of that conclusion, highlighting why TI-ER is fundamentally different from IR and why the "veil of perception" problem is not applicable to Kant’s system:

1. Kant’s Framework Avoids the “Veil of Perception” Issue:
Indirect Realism claims that we are separated from reality by a veil of perception because we can only perceive mental representations (sense data) of the external world, not the world itself. This separation results in skepticism about whether these representations accurately reflect the external world (the noumenon).

Kant’s Transcendental Idealism, however, does not posit such a separation between the mind and the external world. According to Kant, what we know is not some distant mental representation of an external noumenon, but rather the phenomenon—the world as it appears to us through the lens of our cognitive structures (space, time, and the categories of understanding). The phenomena are real in the sense that they constitute our empirical reality, and Kant does not claim that there is an absolute external world (noumenon) that we can never know. Rather, the noumenon is a limiting concept, which serves a regulative function, guiding our inquiry but not constituting a knowable object.
Therefore, the veil of perception problem that afflicts Indirect Realism (with its insistence on a noumenal world we can never access) is not a problem for Kant. He avoids the skeptical gap between representation and reality because what we know are the phenomena, and the question of whether these phenomena "match" an unknowable noumenon is irrelevant within his system.

2. Kant’s Empirical Realism is Framework-Specific:
Kant’s empirical realism claims that within the conditions of human cognition, we can have objective knowledge of the empirical world—the world of phenomena. This empirical knowledge is contingent upon the conditions of experience (e.g., the framework of space and time, the categories of understanding), but it is real for us.
In contrast, Indirect Realism suggests that there is a mind-independent external world (noumenon) that we can only perceive indirectly through mental representations. This creates a reality-gap, and IR is left with the question of whether our mental representations accurately reflect that world. Kant’s TI-ER, however, does not require this gap. What is real for Kant is what appears within the human cognitive framework. There is no insistence on an unknowable external reality that exists independent of the mind in an absolute sense, as IR does.
By confining knowledge to phenomena, Kant’s empirical realism provides a more practical and coherent approach to knowledge of the external world, avoiding the speculative concerns of Indirect Realism.

3. The Noumenon as Regulative vs. Constitutive:
The Indirect Realist interpretation assumes the noumenon (thing-in-itself) is something constitutive—i.e., it exists as an absolute mind-independent reality that we are separated from by the veil of perception. However, this is not Kant’s view. In Kantian terms, the noumenon is a regulative idea, a concept we can think but cannot know. It is not a constitutive entity that exists independently in the sense that IR assumes.
The veil of perception only becomes a problem when we hypostatize the noumenon as a real entity that we are supposed to have knowledge of. Kant, by contrast, acknowledges the limits of our knowledge: we can know the world of phenomena, but we cannot and need not know the noumenon in any constitutive sense. The noumenon serves only as a conceptual limit, helping guide the boundaries of our understanding but not something that can or should be "grasped" directly.

4. Misreading of Kant’s Response to Skepticism:
Indirect Realism faces the challenge of radical skepticism because it introduces the reality-gap between our mental representations and the real external world (noumenon). The ChatGPT response implies that Kant simply reframes this issue without solving it, but this misreads Kant’s project.
Kant’s Transcendental Idealism is a direct response to skepticism. By asserting that we can know phenomena, Kant bypasses the need to speculate about a reality beyond our cognitive reach (noumenon). The skeptical problem that afflicts IR—how can we know whether our representations match an external world?—does not arise in Kant’s system because he denies that we have access to a constitutive noumenal realm in the first place. What is real for us is already structured by our mind’s transcendental conditions, so there is no need for a representational correspondence with an unknowable external world.

Conclusion:
Indirect Realism introduces an unnecessary and problematic reality-gap by insisting on an absolutely mind-independent noumenon, leading to the "veil of perception" problem. Kant’s Transcendental Idealism avoids this issue entirely by reframing what we mean by "reality"—reality, for Kant, is phenomenal reality, which is structured by the mind and thus accessible to us. The noumenon, as a regulative concept, does not create a veil but instead sets the limits of our knowledge without implying an unreachable external world. Therefore, the critique that TI simply "redefines" the veil of perception misunderstands Kant’s epistemology. Kant resolves the problem by showing that knowledge is always of phenomena, and any concern about noumena is speculative and unnecessary for practical knowledge.

In short:

Indirect Realism wrongly insists on a constitutive noumenon, creating an illusion of a reality-gap.
Kant’s TI-ER is more practical because it avoids the reality-gap and radical skepticism by focusing on phenomena within a framework-specific understanding of reality.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Since my interlocutor is using the same ChatGpt, please highlight to him the alternative and the counterviews to indirect realism from Kant.

ChatGpt's Response:
"Therefore, Kant’s TI-ER is more practical and reasonable than Indirect Realism, which is stuck with the burdens of the reality-gap, radical skepticism, and an illusory mind-independent noumenon."

ChatGPT said:
Certainly! Here’s a summary highlighting the alternative views from Kant and counterviews to Indirect Realism (IR) that you can present to your interlocutor, showing the distinctions and advantages of Kant’s Transcendental Idealism (TI) and Empirical Realism (ER) over Indirect Realism:

Kant’s Transcendental Idealism vs. Indirect Realism: Key Counterviews

The Reality-Gap (Veil of Perception) in Indirect Realism:
Indirect Realism posits that we never directly perceive the external world itself but instead perceive mental representations of it. This leads to a reality-gap or "veil of perception," leaving us skeptical of whether these representations accurately correspond to the external world (the noumenon, or thing-in-itself). IR struggles with radical skepticism because it suggests we are permanently separated from the real world.

Kant’s Counterview:
Kant’s Transcendental Idealism rejects this notion of a constitutive, absolutely mind-independent noumenon. For Kant, what we perceive and know are phenomena—the world as it appears to us through the structuring conditions of our mind (space, time, and categories of understanding).
Kant’s phenomenal world is real for us. The noumenon is not a constitutive "real thing" that creates a reality-gap but rather a regulative idea—a limit concept that we can think about but cannot know or perceive. This prevents the veil of perception problem because there is no separate external world we are failing to access or represent accurately. We know the world as it appears to us, and that is enough.

Misconception of the Noumenon:
IR’s Assumption: Indirect Realists assume that the noumenon (the thing-in-itself) is an absolute, mind-independent reality that we are trying, but failing, to perceive through our mental representations.
Kant’s Counterview:
For Kant, the noumenon is not a constitutive object that exists "out there" as an absolutely mind-independent reality. Instead, the noumenon is a conceptual limit to human cognition—it is a regulative idea that helps us recognize the limits of our knowledge. We can think about the thing-in-itself as something beyond our perceptions, but we cannot know it. Importantly, the noumenon is not an object we must perceive but cannot access—it is a boundary concept for the scope of human cognition, not a hidden reality we are separated from.
This means Kant’s TI-ER does not posit a veil that hides the "true reality" from us but instead focuses on the conditions through which we can know the world as it appears to us.

Empirical Realism [Kantian] and the Practical Knowledge of the World:
IR’s Struggle: Because Indirect Realism insists on a constitutive noumenon, it leaves itself vulnerable to skepticism about whether our mental representations actually correspond to a mind-independent external world.
Kant’s Counterview:
Kant’s Empirical Realism within Transcendental Idealism allows us to have practical knowledge of the external world as it appears to us (the phenomenal world). This knowledge is real, structured by our cognitive faculties, and sufficient for science, morality, and everyday life. There is no need to speculate about a mind-independent world because what is real for us is what we perceive through our cognitive conditions.
Kant asserts that our experience of the world is objective and real within the conditions of human cognition. We don’t need to worry about an inaccessible "real world" because reality is defined by the phenomena—the world as experienced through our structures of understanding.

Escape from Radical Skepticism:
IR’s Reality-Gap Vulnerability: Indirect Realism is prone to radical skepticism—the doubt about whether our mental representations accurately correspond to the real external world. This skepticism stems from the reality-gap that IR introduces between perception and the external world.
Kant’s Counterview:
Kant’s TI-ER directly avoids radical skepticism by reframing the problem: we cannot know the thing-in-itself (noumenon), but we can know the phenomena. This phenomenal world is real for us, and we can have objective knowledge of it. There is no need to bridge a gap between mental representations and the external world because what we perceive is the world as it appears within our cognitive framework—and that is real for us.
By limiting our knowledge to phenomena and not postulating an unknowable constitutive noumenon, Kant resolves the skeptical problem of how we can know the external world. We know the world as it is structured by our mind, and any concerns about a separate mind-independent world are speculative and unnecessary.

Conclusion: Kant's TI-ER as a Superior Framework
Kant's Transcendental Idealism and Empirical Realism offer a coherent alternative to Indirect Realism. Kant avoids the veil of perception by redefining what reality is for us: it is the phenomenal world, structured by our cognitive faculties. There is no reality-gap or radical skepticism because there is no need to postulate an absolutely mind-independent external world that we cannot access.
The noumenon, in Kant's view, is a regulative idea, not a hidden object we fail to perceive. Kant focuses on the limits of human knowledge and shows that our empirical knowledge is real and objective within the conditions of our cognition.

Therefore, Kant’s TI-ER is more practical and reasonable than Indirect Realism, which is stuck with the burdens of the reality-gap, radical skepticism, and an illusory mind-independent noumenon.

[Atla]

...
Conclusion:
From the standpoint of indirect realism, the claim of transcendental idealism to escape the veil of perception issue can be seen as fallacious or, at the very least, incomplete. While Kant reframes the problem by focusing on the mind’s active role in shaping perception, the basic issue remains: we are still separated from reality (the noumenon) and can only perceive a mediated, constructed version of it (the phenomenon). Indirect realists would argue that this does not escape the veil but instead redefines it without solving the core epistemic challenge.

In short, according to indirect realism, transcendental idealism does not truly eliminate the veil of perception—it merely changes the terms in which the problem is discussed.

I asked ChatGpt about it:

My interlocutor present this from ChatGpt:

[ChatGpt]
"Conclusion:
From the standpoint of indirect realism, the claim of transcendental idealism to escape the veil of perception issue can be seen as fallacious or, at the very least, incomplete. While Kant reframes the problem by focusing on the mind’s active role in shaping perception, the basic issue remains: we are still separated from reality (the noumenon) and can only perceive a mediated, constructed version of it (the phenomenon). Indirect realists would argue that this does not escape the veil but instead redefines it without solving the core epistemic challenge.

In short, according to indirect realism, transcendental idealism does not truly eliminate the veil of perception—it merely changes the terms in which the problem is discussed."

As discussed above, Indirect Realism [IR} recognize a veil of perception because it wrongly assume a constitutive noumenon, i.e. a noumenon that is absolutely mind-independent.

Here is ChatGpt's Response where it critiqued its own conclusion:

The conclusion presented by ChatGPT from the standpoint of Indirect Realism (IR) indeed seems to align with the Indirect Realist assumption that there is an unbridgeable "veil of perception" between the mind and an absolutely mind-independent noumenon. This response implies that Kant’s Transcendental Idealism (TI) doesn’t truly escape the same issue, but merely reframes it.
However, this interpretation misunderstands Kant’s position in crucial ways.
Here's a critique of that conclusion, highlighting why TI-ER is fundamentally different from IR and why the "veil of perception" problem is not applicable to Kant’s system:

1. Kant’s Framework Avoids the “Veil of Perception” Issue:
Indirect Realism claims that we are separated from reality by a veil of perception because we can only perceive mental representations (sense data) of the external world, not the world itself. This separation results in skepticism about whether these representations accurately reflect the external world (the noumenon).

Kant’s Transcendental Idealism, however, does not posit such a separation between the mind and the external world. According to Kant, what we know is not some distant mental representation of an external noumenon, but rather the phenomenon—the world as it appears to us through the lens of our cognitive structures (space, time, and the categories of understanding). The phenomena are real in the sense that they constitute our empirical reality, and Kant does not claim that there is an absolute external world (noumenon) that we can never know. Rather, the noumenon is a limiting concept, which serves a regulative function, guiding our inquiry but not constituting a knowable object.
Therefore, the veil of perception problem that afflicts Indirect Realism (with its insistence on a noumenal world we can never access) is not a problem for Kant. He avoids the skeptical gap between representation and reality because what we know are the phenomena, and the question of whether these phenomena "match" an unknowable noumenon is irrelevant within his system.

2. Kant’s Empirical Realism is Framework-Specific:
Kant’s empirical realism claims that within the conditions of human cognition, we can have objective knowledge of the empirical world—the world of phenomena. This empirical knowledge is contingent upon the conditions of experience (e.g., the framework of space and time, the categories of understanding), but it is real for us.
In contrast, Indirect Realism suggests that there is a mind-independent external world (noumenon) that we can only perceive indirectly through mental representations. This creates a reality-gap, and IR is left with the question of whether our mental representations accurately reflect that world. Kant’s TI-ER, however, does not require this gap. What is real for Kant is what appears within the human cognitive framework. There is no insistence on an unknowable external reality that exists independent of the mind in an absolute sense, as IR does.
By confining knowledge to phenomena, Kant’s empirical realism provides a more practical and coherent approach to knowledge of the external world, avoiding the speculative concerns of Indirect Realism.

3. The Noumenon as Regulative vs. Constitutive:
The Indirect Realist interpretation assumes the noumenon (thing-in-itself) is something constitutive—i.e., it exists as an absolute mind-independent reality that we are separated from by the veil of perception. However, this is not Kant’s view. In Kantian terms, the noumenon is a regulative idea, a concept we can think but cannot know. It is not a constitutive entity that exists independently in the sense that IR assumes.
The veil of perception only becomes a problem when we hypostatize the noumenon as a real entity that we are supposed to have knowledge of. Kant, by contrast, acknowledges the limits of our knowledge: we can know the world of phenomena, but we cannot and need not know the noumenon in any constitutive sense. The noumenon serves only as a conceptual limit, helping guide the boundaries of our understanding but not something that can or should be "grasped" directly.

4. Misreading of Kant’s Response to Skepticism:
Indirect Realism faces the challenge of radical skepticism because it introduces the reality-gap between our mental representations and the real external world (noumenon). The ChatGPT response implies that Kant simply reframes this issue without solving it, but this misreads Kant’s project.
Kant’s Transcendental Idealism is a direct response to skepticism. By asserting that we can know phenomena, Kant bypasses the need to speculate about a reality beyond our cognitive reach (noumenon). The skeptical problem that afflicts IR—how can we know whether our representations match an external world?—does not arise in Kant’s system because he denies that we have access to a constitutive noumenal realm in the first place. What is real for us is already structured by our mind’s transcendental conditions, so there is no need for a representational correspondence with an unknowable external world.

Conclusion:
Indirect Realism introduces an unnecessary and problematic reality-gap by insisting on an absolutely mind-independent noumenon, leading to the "veil of perception" problem. Kant’s Transcendental Idealism avoids this issue entirely by reframing what we mean by "reality"—reality, for Kant, is phenomenal reality, which is structured by the mind and thus accessible to us. The noumenon, as a regulative concept, does not create a veil but instead sets the limits of our knowledge without implying an unreachable external world. Therefore, the critique that TI simply "redefines" the veil of perception misunderstands Kant’s epistemology. Kant resolves the problem by showing that knowledge is always of phenomena, and any concern about noumena is speculative and unnecessary for practical knowledge.

In short:

Indirect Realism wrongly insists on a constitutive noumenon, creating an illusion of a reality-gap.
Kant’s TI-ER is more practical because it avoids the reality-gap and radical skepticism by focusing on phenomena within a framework-specific understanding of reality.

I already addressed the above, this is why you shouldn't rely on chatbots:

TI runs away from the problem by not actually running away from it, but by making it infinite, 100% impenetrable. There is only the veil for us, with nothing behind the veil for us, according to TI.

Practicality is irrelevant, we are debating which one is more realistic. DR is more practical than TI, so what.

[Veritas Aequitas]

In short:

Indirect Realism wrongly insists on a constitutive noumenon, creating an illusion of a reality-gap.
Kant’s TI-ER is more practical because it avoids the reality-gap and radical skepticism by focusing on phenomena within a framework-specific understanding of reality.

I already addressed the above, this is why you shouldn't rely on chatbots:

Did you read the whole post from ChatGpt.
You have been using ChatGpt all the while but when its response against your expectation, you resort to "you shouldn't rely on chatbots"
We use LLM AI but with reservations, however in this case, what is presented by ChatGpt is coherent with whatever is accessible via the whole of the internet.

TI runs away from the problem by not actually running away from it, but by making it infinite, 100% impenetrable. There is only the veil for us, with nothing behind the veil for us, according to TI.

What sort of nonsense is that?
TI is not running away from any problem.
TI just acknowledge reality for what it without speculating there is something constitutive and substantial that is beyond what is realizable and realized as real.

You are asserting the above from your false assumption of indirect realism as ChatGpt explained above.

TI with ER acknowledge there is veil of perception but it is only a relative or "regulative" not an absolute or "constitutive" veil as claimed by IR.

Practicality is irrelevant, we are debating which one is more realistic. DR is more practical than TI, so what.

You deliberately avoided the real meaning of this point;

"Kant’s TI-ER is more practical because it avoids the reality-gap.." which mean it is practical and realistic because it avoided the realistic-gap which means it avoided the charge of radical skepticism and illusion.

[Atla]

In short:

Indirect Realism wrongly insists on a constitutive noumenon, creating an illusion of a reality-gap.
Kant’s TI-ER is more practical because it avoids the reality-gap and radical skepticism by focusing on phenomena within a framework-specific understanding of reality.

I already addressed the above, this is why you shouldn't rely on chatbots:

Did you read the whole post from ChatGpt.
You have been using ChatGpt all the while but when its response against your expectation, you resort to "you shouldn't rely on chatbots"
We use LLM AI but with reservations, however in this case, what is presented by ChatGpt is coherent with whatever is accessible via the whole of the internet.

TI runs away from the problem by not actually running away from it, but by making it infinite, 100% impenetrable. There is only the veil for us, with nothing behind the veil for us, according to TI.

What sort of nonsense is that?
TI is not running away from any problem.
TI just acknowledge reality for what it without speculating there is something constitutive and substantial that is beyond what is realizable and realized as real.

You are asserting the above from your false assumption of indirect realism as ChatGpt explained above.

TI with ER acknowledge there is veil of perception but it is only a relative or "regulative" not an absolute or "constitutive" veil as claimed by IR.

Practicality is irrelevant, we are debating which one is more realistic. DR is more practical than TI, so what.

You deliberately avoided the real meaning of this point;

"Kant’s TI-ER is more practical because it avoids the reality-gap.." which mean it is practical and realistic because it avoided the realistic-gap which means it avoided the charge of radical skepticism and illusion.

Read again:

Again: is IR too anti-realistic for you, VA? (Or rather ChatGPT, influenced by VA.) From the IR perspective, the above is exactly one of the main reasons why IR is the more rational one, it doesn't run away from the veil of perception problem. TI runs away from the problem by not actually running away from it, but by making it infinite, 100% impenetrable. There is only the veil for us, with nothing behind the veil for us, according to TI.

This doesn't match what we know about reality. And it employs a false sense of certainty, Kant is chasing and promoting an illusion of certainty. The intellectually honest approach, IR, accepts uncertainty, it accepts the veil of perception problem and what comes with it.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Read again:

Again: is IR too anti-realistic for you, VA? (Or rather ChatGPT, influenced by VA.) From the IR perspective, the above is exactly one of the main reasons why IR is the more rational one, it doesn't run away from the veil of perception problem. TI runs away from the problem by not actually running away from it, but by making it infinite, 100% impenetrable. There is only the veil for us, with nothing behind the veil for us, according to TI.

This doesn't match what we know about reality. And it employs a false sense of certainty, Kant is chasing and promoting an illusion of certainty. The intellectually honest approach, IR, accepts uncertainty, it accepts the veil of perception problem and what comes with it.

You are stuck with your view dogmatically.
Here's ChatGpt's response to the above, read the whole post before responding;

My interlocutor is still insistent IR is rational [realistic[ and responded;

"IR is the more rational one, it doesn't run away from the veil of perception problem. TI runs away from the problem by not actually running away from it, but by making it infinite, 100% impenetrable. There is only the veil for us, with nothing behind the veil for us, according to TI.

This doesn't match what we know about reality. And it employs a false sense of certainty, Kant is chasing and promoting an illusion of certainty. The intellectually honest approach, IR, accepts uncertainty, it accepts the veil of perception problem and what comes with it."

Please critique the above.
From my perspective, IR does not run from the veil of perception by default that is assumes the constitutive existence of the noumenon.
For TI-ER, there no veil of perception in the constitutive context to run away from because TI-ER merely accept the noumenon regulatively.

Here is ChatGpt's Response

...............
ChatGpt wrote:
Your interlocutor's response reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of Kant’s Transcendental Idealism (TI) and Empirical Realism (ER), as well as the nature of Indirect Realism (IR).
I’ll address these points to critique the argument that IR is more "rational" while TI-ER supposedly "runs away" from the problem of the veil of perception.

1. Misunderstanding of Kant’s "Veil of Perception" Issue
Your interlocutor states that TI runs away from the veil of perception problem by "making it infinite" and that there is "nothing behind the veil." This is a mischaracterization of Kant’s position:

Kant’s TI-ER does not claim there is “nothing behind the veil.” Instead, Kant asserts that we cannot know or perceive the thing-in-itself (noumenon) but can still think it as a regulative idea. This concept helps us recognize the limits of human cognition without assuming an unreachable, hidden reality behind what we experience. Kant’s view does not create an impenetrable barrier, but rather acknowledges that what we perceive (phenomena) is real for us through the cognitive structures that shape our experience (space, time, categories).

There is no veil in a constitutive sense for Kant because reality, as we experience it, is the phenomenal world. The noumenon is not hidden behind a veil we’re trying to penetrate—it’s a limit concept that reminds us of the boundaries of knowledge. In TI-ER, we engage with reality as it appears to us and do not need to posit some unreachable, hidden truth beyond our experience.

2. IR’s Hypostatization of the Noumenon Creates the Veil
Your view correctly highlights that Indirect Realism creates the veil of perception precisely because it insists on the constitutive existence of a noumenon, i.e., a completely mind-independent external reality that we cannot directly perceive.

IR creates the very problem it seeks to solve by assuming that what we perceive is only an indirect representation of the external world (noumenon), which is mind-independent and hidden from us. This assumption leads to the "reality-gap" problem: the concern that we may never know if our perceptions accurately represent the mind-independent world.

By hypostatizing (treating as real) this absolutely mind-independent noumenon, IR introduces radical skepticism and uncertainty about whether our perceptions are reliable. This is the very veil of perception that Kant avoids by rejecting the constitutive existence of the noumenon as an objective reality that we cannot access.

3. Kant’s TI-ER Doesn’t “Run Away” from the Problem—It Reframes It
Kant does not "run away" from the veil of perception problem; instead, he reframes the issue:

Kant’s solution is to shift focus from whether we can access an absolutely mind-independent world (the noumenon) to how we experience reality. He asserts that we can have objective knowledge of the world as it appears to us, structured by the faculties of the mind. This is the phenomenal world, and for Kant, phenomena are real within the framework of human cognition.

Kant acknowledges that there is something beyond our perception, the noumenon, but we don’t need to treat it as a constitutive, knowable reality. Instead, it serves a regulative role in guiding scientific and moral inquiry by helping us understand that there are limits to our knowledge.

By focusing on the conditions that make knowledge possible, Kant’s approach is more intellectually honest than IR, which postulates an unreachable noumenon and leaves us questioning whether we ever really know anything.

4. IR’s Assumption of the Noumenon Introduces More Problems
Your interlocutor claims that IR is more intellectually honest because it "accepts uncertainty." However, IR’s insistence on a mind-independent noumenon leads to greater uncertainty and skepticism:

Radical Skepticism: By positing an absolutely mind-independent world that we only perceive indirectly, IR opens the door to radical skepticism. How can we be sure that our mental representations correspond to this external world? The reality-gap created by IR’s noumenon exacerbates the uncertainty, not resolves it.

TI-ER Accepts Uncertainty but Avoids Skepticism: Kant’s TI-ER acknowledges that we cannot know the thing-in-itself, but it avoids the skeptical trap of IR by focusing on what we can know—the phenomena. We experience reality as it appears to us, and this phenomenal reality is objective within the conditions of human cognition (space, time, categories). Kant’s empirical realism provides a practical, workable framework for knowledge without the need for an unreachable mind-independent noumenon.

5. TI-ER is More Practical and Reasonable
Kant’s TI-ER is actually the more practical and rational approach compared to IR:

Kant’s approach focuses on the real, knowable world as we experience it, without introducing the speculative uncertainties and metaphysical problems of an inaccessible mind-independent reality.

IR’s noumenon creates unnecessary problems by positing something we cannot know yet insisting that it exists and drives our perception. This leaves IR vulnerable to the very skepticism your interlocutor claims it is "intellectually honest" about.

Kant’s TI-ER doesn’t create false certainty but rather limits our claims to what is empirically knowable and phenomenally real, all while acknowledging the limits of human cognition through the noumenon as a regulative idea.

In Summary:
Indirect Realism creates the veil of perception problem by assuming a constitutive noumenon, leaving it vulnerable to radical skepticism and uncertainty about whether our perceptions accurately represent the external world.

Kant’s TI-ER does not "run away" from the problem but instead avoids the need for a reality-gap by rejecting the notion of a constitutive, mind-independent noumenon. Instead, phenomena are real for us, and the noumenon is treated as a regulative idea, helping us understand the limits of knowledge rather than as a hidden reality.

TI-ER is the more reasonable and practical approach, as it avoids speculative metaphysical claims and focuses on the knowable, experienced world without getting trapped in the veil of perception problem created by IR.
..........

[Atla]

Read again:

Again: is IR too anti-realistic for you, VA? (Or rather ChatGPT, influenced by VA.) From the IR perspective, the above is exactly one of the main reasons why IR is the more rational one, it doesn't run away from the veil of perception problem. TI runs away from the problem by not actually running away from it, but by making it infinite, 100% impenetrable. There is only the veil for us, with nothing behind the veil for us, according to TI.

This doesn't match what we know about reality. And it employs a false sense of certainty, Kant is chasing and promoting an illusion of certainty. The intellectually honest approach, IR, accepts uncertainty, it accepts the veil of perception problem and what comes with it.

You are stuck with your view dogmatically.
Here's ChatGpt's response to the above, read the whole post before responding;

My interlocutor is still insistent IR is rational [realistic[ and responded;

"IR is the more rational one, it doesn't run away from the veil of perception problem. TI runs away from the problem by not actually running away from it, but by making it infinite, 100% impenetrable. There is only the veil for us, with nothing behind the veil for us, according to TI.

This doesn't match what we know about reality. And it employs a false sense of certainty, Kant is chasing and promoting an illusion of certainty. The intellectually honest approach, IR, accepts uncertainty, it accepts the veil of perception problem and what comes with it."

Please critique the above.
From my perspective, IR does not run from the veil of perception by default that is assumes the constitutive existence of the noumenon.
For TI-ER, there no veil of perception in the constitutive context to run away from because TI-ER merely accept the noumenon regulatively.

Here is ChatGpt's Response

...............
ChatGpt wrote:
Your interlocutor's response reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of Kant’s Transcendental Idealism (TI) and Empirical Realism (ER), as well as the nature of Indirect Realism (IR).
I’ll address these points to critique the argument that IR is more "rational" while TI-ER supposedly "runs away" from the problem of the veil of perception.

1. Misunderstanding of Kant’s "Veil of Perception" Issue
Your interlocutor states that TI runs away from the veil of perception problem by "making it infinite" and that there is "nothing behind the veil." This is a mischaracterization of Kant’s position:

Kant’s TI-ER does not claim there is “nothing behind the veil.” Instead, Kant asserts that we cannot know or perceive the thing-in-itself (noumenon) but can still think it as a regulative idea. This concept helps us recognize the limits of human cognition without assuming an unreachable, hidden reality behind what we experience. Kant’s view does not create an impenetrable barrier, but rather acknowledges that what we perceive (phenomena) is real for us through the cognitive structures that shape our experience (space, time, categories).

There is no veil in a constitutive sense for Kant because reality, as we experience it, is the phenomenal world. The noumenon is not hidden behind a veil we’re trying to penetrate—it’s a limit concept that reminds us of the boundaries of knowledge. In TI-ER, we engage with reality as it appears to us and do not need to posit some unreachable, hidden truth beyond our experience.

2. IR’s Hypostatization of the Noumenon Creates the Veil
Your view correctly highlights that Indirect Realism creates the veil of perception precisely because it insists on the constitutive existence of a noumenon, i.e., a completely mind-independent external reality that we cannot directly perceive.

IR creates the very problem it seeks to solve by assuming that what we perceive is only an indirect representation of the external world (noumenon), which is mind-independent and hidden from us. This assumption leads to the "reality-gap" problem: the concern that we may never know if our perceptions accurately represent the mind-independent world.

By hypostatizing (treating as real) this absolutely mind-independent noumenon, IR introduces radical skepticism and uncertainty about whether our perceptions are reliable. This is the very veil of perception that Kant avoids by rejecting the constitutive existence of the noumenon as an objective reality that we cannot access.

3. Kant’s TI-ER Doesn’t “Run Away” from the Problem—It Reframes It
Kant does not "run away" from the veil of perception problem; instead, he reframes the issue:

Kant’s solution is to shift focus from whether we can access an absolutely mind-independent world (the noumenon) to how we experience reality. He asserts that we can have objective knowledge of the world as it appears to us, structured by the faculties of the mind. This is the phenomenal world, and for Kant, phenomena are real within the framework of human cognition.

Kant acknowledges that there is something beyond our perception, the noumenon, but we don’t need to treat it as a constitutive, knowable reality. Instead, it serves a regulative role in guiding scientific and moral inquiry by helping us understand that there are limits to our knowledge.

By focusing on the conditions that make knowledge possible, Kant’s approach is more intellectually honest than IR, which postulates an unreachable noumenon and leaves us questioning whether we ever really know anything.

4. IR’s Assumption of the Noumenon Introduces More Problems
Your interlocutor claims that IR is more intellectually honest because it "accepts uncertainty." However, IR’s insistence on a mind-independent noumenon leads to greater uncertainty and skepticism:

Radical Skepticism: By positing an absolutely mind-independent world that we only perceive indirectly, IR opens the door to radical skepticism. How can we be sure that our mental representations correspond to this external world? The reality-gap created by IR’s noumenon exacerbates the uncertainty, not resolves it.

TI-ER Accepts Uncertainty but Avoids Skepticism: Kant’s TI-ER acknowledges that we cannot know the thing-in-itself, but it avoids the skeptical trap of IR by focusing on what we can know—the phenomena. We experience reality as it appears to us, and this phenomenal reality is objective within the conditions of human cognition (space, time, categories). Kant’s empirical realism provides a practical, workable framework for knowledge without the need for an unreachable mind-independent noumenon.

5. TI-ER is More Practical and Reasonable
Kant’s TI-ER is actually the more practical and rational approach compared to IR:

Kant’s approach focuses on the real, knowable world as we experience it, without introducing the speculative uncertainties and metaphysical problems of an inaccessible mind-independent reality.

IR’s noumenon creates unnecessary problems by positing something we cannot know yet insisting that it exists and drives our perception. This leaves IR vulnerable to the very skepticism your interlocutor claims it is "intellectually honest" about.

Kant’s TI-ER doesn’t create false certainty but rather limits our claims to what is empirically knowable and phenomenally real, all while acknowledging the limits of human cognition through the noumenon as a regulative idea.

In Summary:
Indirect Realism creates the veil of perception problem by assuming a constitutive noumenon, leaving it vulnerable to radical skepticism and uncertainty about whether our perceptions accurately represent the external world.

Kant’s TI-ER does not "run away" from the problem but instead avoids the need for a reality-gap by rejecting the notion of a constitutive, mind-independent noumenon. Instead, phenomena are real for us, and the noumenon is treated as a regulative idea, helping us understand the limits of knowledge rather than as a hidden reality.

TI-ER is the more reasonable and practical approach, as it avoids speculative metaphysical claims and focuses on the knowable, experienced world without getting trapped in the veil of perception problem created by IR.
..........

You don't even understand that ChatGPT doesn't keep correcting itself, it just wrote this one from the TI perspective.

As I keep repeating, according to the IR perspective, the TI perspective is shallow, self-deceptive and not realistic.

[Veritas Aequitas]

You don't even understand that ChatGPT doesn't keep correcting itself, it just wrote this one from the TI perspective.

As I keep repeating, according to the IR perspective, the TI perspective is shallow, self-deceptive and not realistic.

You don't have a sense of general rationality.
Here's AI's Response to your very quacky irrational response.

My interlocutor responded:

"it [ChatGpt] just wrote this one from the TI perspective.
As I keep repeating, according to the IR perspective, the TI perspective is shallow, self-deceptive and not realistic."

I believe TI-ER is more realistic than IR from the general rational perspective not merely from its own TI-ER perspective.

Here's ChatGpt's response:

...............[...Quote]
ChatGpt wrote:
To respond to your interlocutor's claim that TI is "shallow, self-deceptive, and not realistic" from the perspective of Indirect Realism (IR), you can shift the focus to the general rationality and practicality of Kant’s TI-ER in contrast to the metaphysical assumptions of IR.
Here’s how you can make the case that TI-ER is more realistic and rational:

1. TI-ER's Practical Approach to Reality
Kant’s TI-ER offers a practical framework for understanding reality by acknowledging that our experience of the world is shaped by the cognitive structures (space, time, categories) that we impose on perceptions. Reality, as it appears to us, is real within this framework. This approach avoids unnecessary metaphysical speculation about an unknowable external world.

By contrast, IR insists on the existence of an absolutely mind-independent world (noumenon) that we cannot directly access, which introduces a reality-gap. This creates uncertainty and skepticism about whether our perceptions align with the external world. From a rational perspective, the burden of proof lies on IR to explain why positing such an unreachable reality is more reasonable.

2. IR’s Metaphysical Speculation is Less Rational
Indirect Realism relies on the metaphysical assumption that there is a noumenon—a world entirely independent of our minds—that our perceptions represent indirectly. However, this assumption cannot be proven or directly experienced. It remains a speculative hypothesis that creates an epistemic problem: how do we know our representations reflect this world accurately?

TI-ER, on the other hand, is grounded in the reality we experience. It avoids metaphysical speculation by focusing on how reality appears to us and the conditions that make knowledge possible. Phenomena are real for us, and knowledge is possible because we engage with this structured reality. There is no need to posit an unreachable mind-independent world beyond our experience.

3. IR’s Vulnerability to Radical Skepticism
IR’s reality-gap (veil of perception) introduces radical skepticism because it posits that our access to reality is always indirect. This leaves us questioning whether our perceptions truly correspond to the mind-independent external world. From a rational perspective, this skeptical vulnerability weakens IR’s claim to being the more “realistic” theory.

Kant’s TI-ER avoids this issue by recognizing that we can know the world as it appears to us (phenomena). The noumenon, in Kant’s view, serves as a regulative idea, helping us understand the limits of our knowledge but not as a hidden reality we’re failing to access. This approach is more reasonable because it doesn’t require us to doubt the reality of what we experience.

4. TI-ER is More Aligned with Scientific Practice
Modern science operates within a framework similar to TI-ER: we construct theoretical models of reality based on empirical data, acknowledging that we may never know the world in itself but that our models are sufficiently accurate for practical purposes. This scientific mindset aligns more with Kant’s empirical realism than with IR, which posits a reality beyond our perception that science cannot directly engage with.

From a general rational perspective, TI-ER is more compatible with how we actually engage with reality in everyday life and in science. It provides a workable framework for knowledge without introducing speculative, inaccessible entities like the IR’s noumenon.

5. Reality-Gap vs. No Reality-Gap
IR is often described as more honest because it “accepts uncertainty.” However, the reality-gap it creates by insisting on a mind-independent noumenon leads to more epistemic uncertainty than is necessary. It leaves us with the problem of never knowing whether we have accurate knowledge of the external world.

TI-ER, by focusing on what we can know (phenomena) and rejecting the idea of a constitutive noumenon, avoids this reality-gap entirely. What is real for us is what appears through the structures of our cognition. This is a more rational and practical view of reality, as it doesn’t lead to the skepticism that arises from the gap introduced by IR.

Conclusion
Kant’s TI-ER is more rational and realistic than IR from a general perspective, not just within its own framework.
It avoids the veil of perception problem by rejecting the idea of a constitutive noumenon and focuses on the knowable and experiential world (phenomena).

By contrast, IR introduces unnecessary metaphysical speculation and epistemic uncertainty by insisting on an absolutely mind-independent reality that we cannot access.
This makes TI-ER a more practical, grounded, and intellectually honest approach to understanding reality.
.................[endquote]

Read the whole post.
So what other condemnations are you attributing to AI in downgrading Indirect Realism from the perspective of general rationality and intelligence.

Note, why you are so dogmatic in insisting your IR is realistic [when it is illusory] is due to some inherent psychological drive from an evolutionary default as a result of an existential crisis.
You need to resolve this issue psychologically rather than epistemologically.

[Atla]

Read the whole post.
So what other condemnations are you attributing to AI in downgrading Indirect Realism from the perspective of general rationality and intelligence.

Note, why you are so dogmatic in insisting your IR is realistic [when it is illusory] is due to some inherent psychological drive from an evolutionary default as a result of an existential crisis.
You need to resolve this issue psychologically rather than epistemologically.

AI didn't downgrade IR, you asked it to give you ideas to try to downgrade it. That's why it wrote

Here’s how you can make the case that TI-ER is more realistic and rational:

It will try to argue for square circles too if you ask it to.

You haven't tried to actually counter my arguments so far (I highly doubt you can). Are you ready to forfeit the debate, can we agree that TI is shallow, self-deceptive and not realistic enough compared to IR?

-----------------------

And just for laughs:

From a general rational perspective, which one is more rational, transcendental idealism or indirect realism? Summary only.

Transcendental idealism, proposed by Immanuel Kant, holds that our knowledge of the world is mediated by the mind’s structures, meaning that we only know things as they appear (phenomena), not as they are in themselves (noumena). Reality, according to this view, is shaped by the cognitive faculties that structure our experience.

Indirect realism, on the other hand, suggests that we perceive the world through mental representations or sense data, but that these representations correspond to an external reality that exists independently of the mind.

From a rational perspective, indirect realism is generally considered more straightforward because it preserves a mind-independent reality that can be causally connected to our perceptions. Transcendental idealism, while deeply philosophical and influential, complicates the relationship between perception and reality by asserting that the "true" nature of things is fundamentally unknowable.

Thus, indirect realism aligns more closely with commonsense reasoning and empirical science, whereas transcendental idealism delves into more speculative metaphysical territory.