Many Christians "reject Christ and His words"

[ThinkOfOne]

Came across the following YouTube user comment to the video Gary referred to in his "My Perspective on Theology" thread:
viewtopic.php?t=42903

Because the God of the Christian Bible is love, He will not force Himself upon us. If we refuse the only antidote to our sin problem, we should not be surprised to find no other solution. The Christian Bible says, "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.” (Jhn 12:48, NAS95).

People go to hell because they reject Christ and His words. It could be said that God doesn't really send people to Hell but we send ourselves to hell through a free choice to reject Him.
From <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkb7zfWBY3Q&t=8s>

From what I can tell, the vast majority of Christian do reject Jesus and His words. Instead of believing Jesus, they believe the words of Paul and other NT writers which serve as the foundation of Christianity. There's more than a little irony here.

When Jesus said the following, He was speaking of the words He spoke during His ministry as documented in the four gospels:

John 12
47If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48The one who rejects Me and does not accept My teachings has one who judges him: the word which I spoke. That will judge him on the last day.
From <https://biblehub.com/nasb_/john/12.htm>

Jesus taught "salvation through righteousness" during His ministry. In other words, only those who are truly righteous (those who do not commit sin) receive salvation, receive "eternal life", live in the "Kingdom".

Matthew 13
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
John 5
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Clearly only the truly righteous (those who do not commit sin) are "saved" according to the words Jesus spoke during His ministry.

[Skepdick]

...

That was an ellaborately cherry-picked misunderstanding.

This is why Sola Scriptura is worthless doctrine...

First you go and say ...

From what I can tell, the vast majority of Christian do reject Jesus and His words. Instead of believing Jesus, they believe the words of Paul and other NT writers which serve as the foundation of Christianity. There's more than a little irony here.

And then you go and quote the very same sources (NT writers quoting Jesus). And now there is even more irony here...

Interpretation without guidance results in misinterpretation.

[bahman]

Came across the following YouTube user comment to the video Gary referred to in his "My Perspective on Theology" thread:
viewtopic.php?t=42903

Because the God of the Christian Bible is love, He will not force Himself upon us. If we refuse the only antidote to our sin problem, we should not be surprised to find no other solution. The Christian Bible says, "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.” (Jhn 12:48, NAS95).

People go to hell because they reject Christ and His words. It could be said that God doesn't really send people to Hell but we send ourselves to hell through a free choice to reject Him.
From <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkb7zfWBY3Q&t=8s>

From what I can tell, the vast majority of Christian do reject Jesus and His words. Instead of believing Jesus, they believe the words of Paul and other NT writers which serve as the foundation of Christianity. There's more than a little irony here.

When Jesus said the following, He was speaking of the words He spoke during His ministry as documented in the four gospels:

John 12
47If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48The one who rejects Me and does not accept My teachings has one who judges him: the word which I spoke. That will judge him on the last day.
From <https://biblehub.com/nasb_/john/12.htm>

Jesus taught "salvation through righteousness" during His ministry. In other words, only those who are truly righteous (those who do not commit sin) receive salvation, receive "eternal life", live in the "Kingdom".

Matthew 13
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
John 5
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Clearly only the truly righteous (those who do not commit sin) are "saved" according to the words Jesus spoke during His ministry.

Apparently those verses contradict the following verses:

John 14:6: Jesus Christ dogmatically stated: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” The only way to have a relationship with God the Father is through Jesus Christ.

Acts 4:12: The apostle Peter, speaking of Jesus Christ, proclaimed, “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” We cannot be saved unless we accept and believe in Jesus Christ and what He did for each of us.

John 3:16: The most famous Bible verse in Christianity declares: “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (emphasis added). Even this verse proclaiming God’s love and desire to save people adds the caveat that they must “believe in Him” to have everlasting life.

John 3:36: "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

[ThinkOfOne]

Came across the following YouTube user comment to the video Gary referred to in his "My Perspective on Theology" thread:
viewtopic.php?t=42903

Because the God of the Christian Bible is love, He will not force Himself upon us. If we refuse the only antidote to our sin problem, we should not be surprised to find no other solution. The Christian Bible says, "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.” (Jhn 12:48, NAS95).

People go to hell because they reject Christ and His words. It could be said that God doesn't really send people to Hell but we send ourselves to hell through a free choice to reject Him.
From <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkb7zfWBY3Q&t=8s>

From what I can tell, the vast majority of Christian do reject Jesus and His words. Instead of believing Jesus, they believe the words of Paul and other NT writers which serve as the foundation of Christianity. There's more than a little irony here.

When Jesus said the following, He was speaking of the words He spoke during His ministry as documented in the four gospels:

John 12
47If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48The one who rejects Me and does not accept My teachings has one who judges him: the word which I spoke. That will judge him on the last day.
From <https://biblehub.com/nasb_/john/12.htm>

Jesus taught "salvation through righteousness" during His ministry. In other words, only those who are truly righteous (those who do not commit sin) receive salvation, receive "eternal life", live in the "Kingdom".

Matthew 13
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
John 5
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Clearly only the truly righteous (those who do not commit sin) are "saved" according to the words Jesus spoke during His ministry.

Apparently those verses contradict the following verses:

John 14:6: Jesus Christ dogmatically stated: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” The only way to have a relationship with God the Father is through Jesus Christ.

Acts 4:12: The apostle Peter, speaking of Jesus Christ, proclaimed, “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” We cannot be saved unless we accept and believe in Jesus Christ and what He did for each of us.

John 3:16: The most famous Bible verse in Christianity declares: “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (emphasis added). Even this verse proclaiming God’s love and desire to save people adds the caveat that they must “believe in Him” to have everlasting life.

John 3:36: "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

"Apparently" as in superficially? That seems to be a common MO for many Christians: Take a verse out of context (especially one that is ambiguous in and of itself) and read a meaning into it that doesn't hold water when context is fully considered. Not sure why you've adopted that methodology.

It's important to keep in mind that the Youtube user cited John 12:48 which says that it is the words He (Jesus) spoke that will be used to judge. Note that "spoke" is past tense. So it is limited to words Jesus spoke during His ministry as is documented in the four gospels. Acts 4:12 was said by Peter. As such, no idea why you cited it.

As to the verses from John 3. John 3 is a curious case. In John 3 a judgement needs to be made as to when Jesus stops talking and when commentary from the author of John begins. For example in the NIV translation, author commentary begins with John 3:16, while in the NASB, author commentary begins with John 3:22. All things considered John 3:16,36 was likely not said by Jesus, but is instead commentary by the author of the Book of John. You can Google the reasons if you're interested. Much has been written about it.

As to John 14:6, in my experience it's a verse cited by many Christians in an attempt to claim exclusivity via "having faith that Jesus paid the penalty for their sins"(both past and future). There's no reason to think that that is necessarily what Jesus had in mind. Consider the larger context of the words Jesus spoke during His ministry in its entirety wherein Jesus repeatedly emphasized that He spoke in "parables" (figurative language). As such, John 14:6 was not necessarily meant to be taken literally and is open to interpretation.

Let's look at a way of looking at it figuratively:
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."

At its most elemental, it is a simple word substitution puzzle. In the first clause, Jesus sets up the following equivalency:
Jesus = "the way, and the truth, and the life". Using substitution in the second clause yields:

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through [the way, and the truth, and the life]".

So it doesn't make sense to think that Jesus necessarily had exclusivity via "having faith that Jesus paid the penalty for their sins" in mind. Plus, if you fully consider both the immediate context and the entirety of the words Jesus spoke during His ministry the above is a much stronger understanding of that verse.

[ThinkOfOne]

...

That was an ellaborately cherry-picked misunderstanding.

This is why Sola Scriptura is worthless doctrine...

First you go and say ...

From what I can tell, the vast majority of Christian do reject Jesus and His words. Instead of believing Jesus, they believe the words of Paul and other NT writers which serve as the foundation of Christianity. There's more than a little irony here.

And then you go and quote the very same sources (NT writers quoting Jesus). And now there is even more irony here...

Interpretation without guidance results in misinterpretation.

Not sure what to make of this. You've made several vague assertions, but there isn't enough here to get a reasonable understanding of what you have in mind. As but a few examples: "ellaborately [sic] cherry-picked misunderstanding"?; "now there is even more irony here..."?; "Interpretation without guidance results in misinterpretation"?. Can you flesh this out?

[Impenitent]

absolution and forgiveness through the church bypasses the need to understand translated Aramaic speech that no one alive has heard...

-Imp

[ThinkOfOne]

absolution and forgiveness through the church bypasses the need to understand translated Aramaic speech that no one alive has heard...

-Imp

Not sure what to make of this. Are you saying that it's okay to "reject Christ and His words" for those who believe that they receive "absolution and forgiveness through the church" ?

[Impenitent]

absolution and forgiveness through the church bypasses the need to understand translated Aramaic speech that no one alive has heard...

-Imp

Not sure what to make of this. Are you saying that it's okay to "reject Christ and His words" for those who believe that they receive "absolution and forgiveness through the church" ?

"There is no original text" - Nietzsche

-Imp

[ThinkOfOne]

absolution and forgiveness through the church bypasses the need to understand translated Aramaic speech that no one alive has heard...

-Imp

Not sure what to make of this. Are you saying that it's okay to "reject Christ and His words" for those who believe that they receive "absolution and forgiveness through the church" ?

"There is no original text" - Nietzsche

-Imp

No idea how that's supposed to relate to what you posted earlier. Evidently the most reasonable thing to do at this point is write you off as a troll.

[Impenitent]

Not sure what to make of this. Are you saying that it's okay to "reject Christ and His words" for those who believe that they receive "absolution and forgiveness through the church" ?

"There is no original text" - Nietzsche

-Imp

No idea how that's supposed to relate to what you posted earlier. Evidently the most reasonable thing to do at this point is write you off as a troll.

The Nietzsche quote references the bible

you can believe in the writings of the church

finis

-Imp

[Skepdick]

Not sure what to make of this. You've made several vague assertions, but there isn't enough here to get a reasonable understanding of what you have in mind. As but a few examples: "ellaborately [sic] cherry-picked misunderstanding"?; "now there is even more irony here..."?; "Interpretation without guidance results in misinterpretation"?. Can you flesh this out?

Not sure how to respond to you. Are you approaching Christian theology as an outsider - a dilletante; or as an insider?
If you are an insider - which kind of insider? Protestant, Catholic, Restorationist, non-denominational, Orthodox? I have no idea where your (mis)understanding is coming from until I know more about your theology.

From my own personal view there's no difference between a complete outsider to Christendom reading the Bible and drawing their own conclusions;
and the protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura. In practice - it amounts to exactly the same thing. Read. Interpret. Walk away with your own understanding. There's no right or wrong interpretation. Protestantism is basically Christian relativism.

Since your reading/interpretation provides zero context except cherry-picking bible verses - I figured you are either a Protestant or a non-Christian.

To give you an idea - I am non-practicing Orthodox, but I understand how and why context matters and how (mis)interpretation works.

[ThinkOfOne]

Not sure what to make of this. You've made several vague assertions, but there isn't enough here to get a reasonable understanding of what you have in mind. As but a few examples: "ellaborately [sic] cherry-picked misunderstanding"?; "now there is even more irony here..."?; "Interpretation without guidance results in misinterpretation"?. Can you flesh this out?

Not sure how to respond to you. Are you approaching Christian theology as an outsider - a dilletante; or as an insider?
If you are an insider - which kind of insider? Protestant, Catholic, Restorationist, non-denominational, Orthodox? I have no idea where your (mis)understanding is coming from until I know more about your theology.

From my own personal view there's no difference between a complete outsider to Christendom reading the Bible and drawing their own conclusions;
and the protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura. In practice - it amounts to exactly the same thing. Read. Interpret. Walk away with your own understanding. There's no right or wrong interpretation. Protestantism is basically Christian relativism.

Since your reading/interpretation provides zero context except cherry-picking bible verses - I figured you are either a Protestant or a non-Christian.

To give you an idea - I am non-practicing Orthodox, but I understand how and why context matters and how (mis)interpretation works.

Let's see if we can move this discussion forward.

Here I was thinking that you'd do the reasonable thing and explicitly state which verses/passages you believe that I have "cherry-picked" and therefore misunderstood AND demonstrated verse/passage by verse/passage how Jesus' words don't actually say what I believe them to say. In other words, explicitly lay out what you believe those verses actually say and why. How about it?

It's as if you believe that the only way to truth is to mindlessly follow "guidance" given by "the Church" - in your case the Orthodox Church. Presumably you are "non-practicing" for a reason. How is it that you continue to believe that the "guidance" given by the Orthodox Church is correct?

Also if you wanted to see additional supporting verses all you need to have done was ask. During His ministry, it was not at all uncommon for Him to point to the same underlying concepts over and over again - often in very ways. The importance of His words and "salvation through righteousness" were two such concepts. In fact, the importance of His word was probably the most prevalent theme of His ministry.

For example, consider the following passage:

John 8
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35“And the slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
31Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
36“If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

Note that Jesus explicitly states that His "true disciples" abide in His word. Not the word of Paul. Not the word of the other NT writers. Not the word of the Orthodox Church. Not the Bible as a whole. His word. In context that would be the words He spoke during His ministry; the gospel that Jesus preached.
Jesus goes to further explicitly state that His true disciples are made free from committing sin by abiding His word. And that only those who do not commit sin "remain in the house forever"; those who remain "slaves" (continue to commit sin) do not "remain in the house forever". And that only those who "keep His word shall never see death".

Here Jesus is again pointing to the same underlying concepts as in the verses/passages that I cited earlier: the importance of His word and "salvation through righteousness". There are plenty more verses/ passages besides from the gospel preached by Jesus. So it's far from "cherry-picked".

[Skepdick]

Not sure what to make of this. You've made several vague assertions, but there isn't enough here to get a reasonable understanding of what you have in mind. As but a few examples: "ellaborately [sic] cherry-picked misunderstanding"?; "now there is even more irony here..."?; "Interpretation without guidance results in misinterpretation"?. Can you flesh this out?

Not sure how to respond to you. Are you approaching Christian theology as an outsider - a dilletante; or as an insider?
If you are an insider - which kind of insider? Protestant, Catholic, Restorationist, non-denominational, Orthodox? I have no idea where your (mis)understanding is coming from until I know more about your theology.

From my own personal view there's no difference between a complete outsider to Christendom reading the Bible and drawing their own conclusions;
and the protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura. In practice - it amounts to exactly the same thing. Read. Interpret. Walk away with your own understanding. There's no right or wrong interpretation. Protestantism is basically Christian relativism.

Since your reading/interpretation provides zero context except cherry-picking bible verses - I figured you are either a Protestant or a non-Christian.

To give you an idea - I am non-practicing Orthodox, but I understand how and why context matters and how (mis)interpretation works.

Let's see if we can move this discussion forward.

Here I was thinking that you'd do the reasonable thing and explicitly state which verses/passages you believe that I have "cherry-picked" and therefore misunderstood AND demonstrated verse/passage by verse/passage how Jesus' words don't actually say what I believe them to say. In other words, explicitly lay out what you believe those verses actually say and why. How about it?

I am not realy interested in going over scripture with a stranger.

It's as if you believe that the only way to truth is to mindlessly follow "guidance" given by "the Church" - in your case the Orthodox Church. Presumably you are "non-practicing" for a reason. How is it that you continue to believe that the "guidance" given by the Orthodox Church is correct?

I believe none of the beliefs you've projected onto me. What I do believe is your approach doesn't work. So I won't participate in it on your terms.

Also if you wanted to see additional supporting verses all you need to have done was ask.

If I wanted to see additional supporting verses I would have asked. But it's not your verse-quoting that's I find problematic. It's your phronema.

[ThinkOfOne]

Not sure how to respond to you. Are you approaching Christian theology as an outsider - a dilletante; or as an insider?
If you are an insider - which kind of insider? Protestant, Catholic, Restorationist, non-denominational, Orthodox? I have no idea where your (mis)understanding is coming from until I know more about your theology.

From my own personal view there's no difference between a complete outsider to Christendom reading the Bible and drawing their own conclusions;
and the protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura. In practice - it amounts to exactly the same thing. Read. Interpret. Walk away with your own understanding. There's no right or wrong interpretation. Protestantism is basically Christian relativism.

Since your reading/interpretation provides zero context except cherry-picking bible verses - I figured you are either a Protestant or a non-Christian.

To give you an idea - I am non-practicing Orthodox, but I understand how and why context matters and how (mis)interpretation works.

Let's see if we can move this discussion forward.

Here I was thinking that you'd do the reasonable thing and explicitly state which verses/passages you believe that I have "cherry-picked" and therefore misunderstood AND demonstrated verse/passage by verse/passage how Jesus' words don't actually say what I believe them to say. In other words, explicitly lay out what you believe those verses actually say and why. How about it?

I am not realy interested in going over scripture with a stranger.

It's as if you believe that the only way to truth is to mindlessly follow "guidance" given by "the Church" - in your case the Orthodox Church. Presumably you are "non-practicing" for a reason. How is it that you continue to believe that the "guidance" given by the Orthodox Church is correct?

I believe none of the beliefs you've projected onto me. What I do believe is your approach doesn't work. So I won't participate in it on your terms.

Also if you wanted to see additional supporting verses all you need to have done was ask.

If I wanted to see additional supporting verses I would have asked. But it's not your verse-quoting that's I find problematic. It's your phronema.

C'mon.

In your first post on this thread you responded to the OP asserting that I "misunderstand" scripture; that I "misinterpret" scripture; that I was "cherry-picking"..

The fact is that Jesus said what He said. The fact is that have shown that I understand Jesus just fine; that I interpret Jesus just fine; that I haven't been "cherry-picking" from the words spoken by Jesus during His ministry. The fact is that you have been unable to refute what I've been writing about scripture. Now instead of humbly admitting that you were incorrect, you're now claiming that you are "not realy interested in going over scripture with a stranger". This after having made groundless assertions about what I've been writing about scripture. If you were able to refute what I've been writing, then you would. Evidently you are one of the "Many Christians [that] reject Christ and His words".

[Skepdick]

Let's see if we can move this discussion forward.

Here I was thinking that you'd do the reasonable thing and explicitly state which verses/passages you believe that I have "cherry-picked" and therefore misunderstood AND demonstrated verse/passage by verse/passage how Jesus' words don't actually say what I believe them to say. In other words, explicitly lay out what you believe those verses actually say and why. How about it?

I am not realy interested in going over scripture with a stranger.

It's as if you believe that the only way to truth is to mindlessly follow "guidance" given by "the Church" - in your case the Orthodox Church. Presumably you are "non-practicing" for a reason. How is it that you continue to believe that the "guidance" given by the Orthodox Church is correct?

I believe none of the beliefs you've projected onto me. What I do believe is your approach doesn't work. So I won't participate in it on your terms.

Also if you wanted to see additional supporting verses all you need to have done was ask.

If I wanted to see additional supporting verses I would have asked. But it's not your verse-quoting that's I find problematic. It's your phronema.

C'mon.

In your first post on this thread you responded to the OP asserting that I "misunderstand" scripture; that I "misinterpret" scripture; that I was "cherry-picking"..

The fact is that Jesus said what He said. The fact is that have shown that I understand Jesus just fine; that I interpret Jesus just fine; that I haven't been "cherry-picking" from the words spoken by Jesus during His ministry. The fact is that you have been unable to refute what I've been writing about scripture. Now instead of humbly admitting that you were incorrect, you're now claiming that you are "not realy interested in going over scripture with a stranger". This after having made groundless assertions about what I've been writing about scripture. If you were able to refute what I've been writing, then you would. Evidently you are one of the "Many Christians [that] reject Christ and His words".

Your insistence on Aristotelian/scholastic methods when approaching theology speaks volumes as to the problem with your phronema.

Debates. Arguments. Refutations.

Westerners... your misunderstanding is hilarious.