The possible purpose of BLACK HOLES...

[Age]

Does anyone else have any suggestions as to what the purpose of black holes might be?

Reversing entropy. I don't buy the universality of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

'Entropy' only applies to things that 'began', or which were created, 'in a beginning'.

The Universe, Itself, obviously did NOT begin, in nor at 'one moment'.

The Universe, however, is always, IN Creation right HERE, and right NOW.

NOW is what the words, 'In the beginning', have, always, been meaning, and referring to, exactly.

Absolutely every thing that is happening and occurring, in the continuous, NOW is; 'In the beginning', of 'the Creation' of every 'thing'.

Every thing combined, or, literally, together as one, is the One Everything, Itself, or also known as the Universe, Itself.

[Atla]

_______

There is no doubt a better analogy, but I suggest that, aside from thermodynamics, black holes might be the metaphorical "pistons" that help turn the crankshaft of the great engine of the universe by causing the perpetual movement of the underlying substance from which matter is composed.

I suspect that this is nothing new, but what I am proposing is that due to quantum entanglement theoretically connecting all matter together in a homogenous and interpenetrating state of "oneness" at what physicists call the "non-local" level of reality - something that is loosely demonstrated in the informationally-based underpinning of the laser hologram,...



...it therefore suggests that the gravitational workings of just one black hole alone (via the ol' "spooky action at a distance") could affect (as in move) the entire underlying fabric of reality to some miniscule degree.

However, according to an article on the website "LIVESCIENCE", it is estimated that...

"...40,000,000,000,000,000,000, or 40 quintillion, stellar-mass black holes populate the observable universe..."
https://www.livescience.com/researchers ... 20universe

In which case, just imagine the dynamic (churning/moving/powering) affect that 40 quintillion black holes would have on the entangled oneness of the quantum underpinning of the universe.

In parallel with that, there's always been this persistent mystery of what happens to the matter and light that crosses the event horizon of a black hole?

What do you mean by there has 'always' been 'this persistent mystery of what happens ...'?

1. This mystery, which only applies to some of you human beings, has never 'always' been.

2. What happens to the matter and light that crosses the event horizon of a black hole 'is obvious'.

1. The light cannot be seen by you observers on the "other side" of the so-called 'event horizon', because matter and light is getting 'sucked in' or 'attracted' by and to the singularity, at 'the end' of a black hole, quicker than the speed of light. So, this is why you observers cannot see the light.

The 'gravitation pull' is just stronger, and/or just faster, than the speed of light. (Which, by the way, is how and why so-called 'time travel' became 'a thing'. But, this is for another topic, and another discussion, at a 'later date' as some might say.)

2. The matter is just compressed 'infinitely', which just means that there is no 'space' between 'matter', itself, into one singular object/piece of matter, also known as 'singularity', itself. And, the 'singularity' remains 'as such' until 'one day/at some point/in one moment' 'it' expands, with 'a bang', or as some might call it 'the big bang'. Depending, on course, on where 'one' is 'relatively to it', exactly.

And, from the perspective of 'singularity', itself, or from the 'other side of singularity', that is; those who are 'looking back' at a 'particular bang', to some of them anyway, there was no 'before' the 'big bang', and this is just because 'before any of those bangs', from the perspective of 'after' only anyway, there was only 'singularity', itself, and, obviously, for what is called 'time' to be happening and/or occurring at least two pieces/objects of matter are needed, as well as a 'light source'.

All of this might not yet be known, nor understood, fully by you posters here, but, soon enough, it will, and did, become just 'normal' everyday knowledge that becomes, and become, crystal clear.

Well, perhaps it is simply dismantled and reduced back into whatever it is that is being represented in this fanciful depiction of the not-so-empty vacuum of space...

There are only two things that are 'fundamental' in the always infinite and eternal Universe, and they are 'matter' and 'space', with 'space' just being a word or term used to describe 'the distance' between, and/or around 'matter', itself.

'Space' just being the invisible part of the Universe, and, 'matter' just being the visible part of the Universe, Itself.

Every other 'thing' is created, or caused, from the visible matter just interacting with 'it self'.

...where it (again, in the context of "non-local" reality) exists in the form of what Heisenberg called "potentia."

In other words, the matter that disappears into a black hole is simply transformed back into Heisenberg's raw potentia substance...

But, 'the matter' that just goes into a black hole does NOT 'disappear'. It just forms into 'an infinite compression of matter', until it eventually just expands in/with/at a 'bang', (of varying sizes. Some are just bigger than other ones are).

(an infinitely malleable substance, mind you, that, according to quantum theory, is not very "real" itself, but is capable of becoming anything real imaginable)

...that is then reused in the creation of new manifestations of observable phenomena up here in the context of what physicists call "local" reality.

It is the 'Universe', It-Self, which is what IS Creating 'Everything', the Universe, Itself, and which is eternal, all-powerful, and everything else that is associated with 'God, the Creator', words.

The Universe, Itself, being in an always continual evolving-creation process is the very Thing that is Creating, Its Self, always, HERE-NOW. Or, in another word is what God, It-Self, actually IS.

And, it was through through evolution, or 'constant-change', how an organic species with a brain, which works just like a computer does, or with computer capabilities, is HOW 'I', eventually, came to 'KNOW' thy 'Self', exactly.

Furthermore, to throw everything (including the kitchen sink) into this speculative venture, perhaps the question of what black holes expel from their backsides is somehow related to the mystery of what dark energy and dark matter are made of.

What is at the so-called 'end' of a black hole is the EXACT SAME thing at the so-called 'beginning' of the Universe, Itself, and that is just 'singularity', itself.

So, what is so-called 'expelled' from the so-called 'backsides' of black holes is JUST 'bangs', of varying sizes. Some are 'big bangs', while some are 'small bangs' or 'smaller ones'. But, again, because absolutely EVERY thing is 'relative', to 'the observer', 'the size' of 'the bang' is 'relative, also.

For example, if one wants to, or chooses to, 'look at' 'the bang', from which they have come 'directly after' or 'directly from', then they can 'see' 'that bang' as the so-called 'big bang', (or as 'the one' that created and caused absolutely EVERY thing), or, they can decide, and choose, to just 'look at' 'that bang' as just 'another bang, out of 'countless other bangs'. Of which ALL are happening and occurring within One, infinite and eternal, Universe, Itself.

Anyway, in conclusion, not only might black holes be the metaphorical "pistons" that, along with thermodynamics, help keep the cogs and gears of the great engine of the universe moving,...

...but they may also function as cosmic "recycling bins" for the very foundational essence from which reality is formed.

Maybe so.

Does anyone else have any suggestions as to what the purpose of black holes might be?
_______

Could the 'purpose' of black holes be to, as you already suggested, just to 'suck in', or 'clean up', all of the matter around a, relative, 'local area' to a 'point of singularity', to then just 'expel', or 'regurgitate', all of 'that matter', again, from and with 'a bang', and with 'an expansion', so that 'one day', eventually, the Creator of all-of-this could, eventually, come-to-know thy 'Self'?

If as you say here there 'was a purpose', of or for black holes, then this implies that there was 'an intention' made, and obviously 'an intention' would have to be 'made' by some thing with some 'awareness' or with some sort of 'consciousness', itself.

So, just maybe, the 'purpose' of black holes was to just keep 'regurgitating' matter, itself, until it, eventually, 'formed' into a biological organism, with intelligence, or the ability to learn, understand, and/or reason absolutely any and every thing, and with 'an organ' that has the ability to gather, obtain, and store the knowledge, and/or information, from what 'it' has learned and understood, 'along the way'.

If there were no black holes, then 'the way' matter was 'forming', and/or being formed', 'along the way' could, and would, go in 'one way', only. However, with black holes, and the continual 'sucking in and cleaning up' matter, and with the continual 'expelling and expanding' of matter, again and again, and over and over, then maybe it was 'known' that, eventually, 'I', the Creator of all-there-is, could come-to-know thy Self.

Maybe it was only through the 'cleaning up' and 'recycling' process that 'black holes, singularities, and bangs/expansions' cause that 'I', the Creator of ALL, could come to not just 'know thy Self' but to also come-to-know HOW, and WHY 'I' am Creating every thing and all-of-this.

How 'I', the Universe, am Creating every thing, always, is just through the continual action-re-action process, which is allowed to occur from the 'space' between 'matter', which allows 'matter' to move about, absolutely FREELY, to inter-act with 'it-self', which is was causes and creates all 'new' things, and which also allows 'all things' to evolve, as well. Through an always constant-change of 'I' this is HOW the Universe, 'all things', are formed, and re-formed, and even in-formed, like 'you' beings, and people, are with-in human bodies, with the in-formation, which is 'in-forming you all, continually, and also HOW 'you', human beings, were 'trans-formed' from what was before, to evolve into what, and who, 'you' are 'now', which will keep evolving into being Created in (and) to the next 'trans-form-ation', 'along the process', to be-coming what was meant-to-Be. Through evolution 'I' am Creating what 'I' want. Which is just 'to be' living in peace, and in harmony, with one and all, as One, forever more.

And, WHY there are 'all things', and 'all-of-this', instead of absolutely nothing, and 'no things', is so that 'I' can bear witness to this One Creation, and to ALL of what 'I' am Creating.

Black holes were just a 'necessary' part in ALL-OF-THIS.

The 'space' in and around 'matter', 'in expansion', is removed, completely, at 'the end' of black hole, at singularity, so as to re-direct 'matter', itself, into 'a new beginning', at the start, and beginning, at every new 'big bang'. With every 'new expansion' there is 'another chance' that what was intended, meant, or (pre) determined, 'to be', will be-come, and Be.

A question 'could be', am 'I' be-coming what 'I' was 'meant to be', or will 'I' just remain where 'I' was 'not meant to be'.

Was the 'purpose' of black holes to help 'Me' to be, and be-come, who 'I' have, already, come-to-be, or where they meant to stop 'Me' from be-coming who I was 'not meant to Be?

A childish and illogical theory, as I pointed out before. What made you write it all down in one go?

[attofishpi]

[A childish and illogical theory, as I pointed out before. What made you write it all down in one go?

Odd, I found that the most interesting consideration of the universe that Age or anyone has written and is the way I consider 'things' to be, for that matter.

[Age]

Reversing entropy. I don't buy the universality of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Yeah, I can kind of see how that could make sense.

However, in what way do you envision black holes being involved in reversing entropy?
_______

I admit I don't actually know what entropy means, is there even an agreed upon definition?

Is there an agreed upon definition for the words 'time', 'space', 'mind', 'Universe', 'determinism', 'free will', 'compatibilsm', 'creation', 'evolution', 'nature', nurture', or even just the word 'love', or many other of the other words that you human beings use, as though you actually know what you are talking about? However, when questioned and/or challenged you, really, do not know, well 'yet' anyway.

I guess it's something like, degree of order/disorder, number of possible configurations, at least from our perspective.

I think the only logical possibility is that the universe's entropy is constant, so if the Big Bang was a highly ordered state, and evolved to the present day's more disordered state, then there must also exist a reverse process that decreases entropy, as we move forward in time.

Every object/form of matter within the Universe comes-to-exist, exists, and then exists. Every 'thing', besides the Universe, Itself, trans-forms into something else. The Universe, however, just keeps 'trans-forming' into Its Self, always.

To me, the best candidates seem to be black holes, where all matter falls towards a single point, maybe is condensed into a Planck-length. So looks like the singularity gets more ordered again.

Supposedly 'ordered' in relation to 'what', exactly?

And some even wilder speculation: as for facilitating the quantum observational effect (if there is such a thing at all), I think stars are better candidates than black holes. Stars are spherical and electromagnetic, so they might be good 4-dimensional facilitators or amplifiers of a 4 or more dimensional spherical-electromagnetic (mind-like) observational influence (again, if there is such a thing at all). Okay that made very little sense, would take a lot to unpack.

I agree.

[Age]

To me, the best candidates seem to be black holes, where all matter falls towards a single point, maybe is condensed into a Planck-length. So looks like the singularity gets more ordered again.

I should add that most physicists seem to believe that quantum fluctuations, virtual particle pairs randomly appear out of nothing.

1. What you human beings believe is true, or right, does not mean that what is believed is true, nor right.

2. What 'appears' to you human beings is not necessarily what is true, and right.

3. Because some thing already exists this means that whatever appears came from some thing. There is not one thing that just randomly comes out of nothing. And, what, exactly, are so-called 'virtual particles' compared to 'actual particles', anyway?

That's a useful model but I think there's more to it, it's just unprovable that there's more to it.

I believe that quantum fluctuations, virtual particles are manifestations of a layer of reality that's also entirely real, this layer is also an integral part of the universe, and is also nonlocally entangled. So I believe that quantum fluctuations are only apparently random, 'God' does not play dice, and of course something can't appear out of nothing.

God does not play. Full stop.

God creates.

So in my belief, Hawking radiation changes nothing, black holes do decrease entropy. I think the information paradox doesn't exist. And this whole Holographic universe idea is probably nonsense.

A lot of 'thinking' and 'believing' here. And, no actual 'knowing'.

Again, these people would much prefer to tell others what they think, presume, or believe is true, instead of just only 'looking at' and 'talking about' what is actually irrefutably True, and Right, only.

[Age]

Yeah, I can kind of see how that could make sense.

However, in what way do you envision black holes being involved in reversing entropy?
_______

I admit I don't actually know what entropy means, is there even an agreed upon definition?
I guess it's something like, degree of order/disorder, number of possible configurations, at least from our perspective.

I think the only logical possibility is that the universe's entropy is constant, so if the Big Bang was a highly ordered state, and evolved to the present day's more disordered state, then there must also exist a reverse process that decreases entropy, as we move forward in time.

To me, the best candidates seem to be black holes, where all matter falls towards a single point, maybe is condensed into a Planck-length. So looks like the singularity gets more ordered again.

Yes, that's the part of your suggestion that makes sense, at least from the perspective of the physicists and cosmologists who view the pre-bang singularity of the universe...

(where all the matter of the universe was allegedly neatly packed into a tight little homogenous point)

...as being the moment when the universe was in its ultimate state of "order," which has been steadily diminishing since the bang occurred.

I get where they're coming from, in that they are coming from the perspective implicit in this image...



However, and forgive me for constantly using the same illustrations, but it just seems silly to me to apply the term "diminishing order" to the post-bang process that has gradually transformed something resembling the meaningless quantum gibberish implicit in this image...



...into that which is implicit in these images...




Clearly, I have issues with the notion that the universe is becoming "less ordered" as time goes by.
_______

There is no 'order', 'disorder', 'less order', 'more order', 'diminishing order', nor 'increasing order' in relation to the Universe, Itself.

The Universe is just in a constant state, and/or constant process, of 'change', only.

[Age]

I admit I don't actually know what entropy means, is there even an agreed upon definition?
I guess it's something like, degree of order/disorder, number of possible configurations, at least from our perspective.

I think the only logical possibility is that the universe's entropy is constant, so if the Big Bang was a highly ordered state, and evolved to the present day's more disordered state, then there must also exist a reverse process that decreases entropy, as we move forward in time.

To me, the best candidates seem to be black holes, where all matter falls towards a single point, maybe is condensed into a Planck-length. So looks like the singularity gets more ordered again.

Yes, that's the part of your suggestion that makes sense, at least from the perspective of the physicists and cosmologists who view the pre-bang singularity of the universe...

(where all the matter of the universe was allegedly neatly packed into a tight little homogenous point)

...as being the moment when the universe was in its ultimate state of "order," which has been steadily diminishing since the bang occurred.

I get where they're coming from, in that they are coming from the perspective implicit in this image...



However, and forgive me for constantly using the same illustrations, but it just seems silly to me to apply the term "diminishing order" to the post-bang process that has gradually transformed something resembling the meaningless quantum gibberish implicit in this image...



...into that which is implicit in these images...




Clearly, I have issues with the notion that the universe is becoming "less ordered" as time goes by.
_______

I believe entropy should be constant, otherwise there is no symmetry, no logic. So the total universe must be larger than "our" Big Bang, inferred from "our" observable universe.
If our Big Bang was highly or totally ordered, then other parts of the total universe must have been more disordered at that point.

Other than that, getting our remarkably complex and improbable world, is just a matter of orders of magnitude. If we allow enough or infinitely many orders of magnitude, then any world, no matter how remarkably complex, can naturally exist.

The Universe 'just exists, and infinitely and eternally as well.

The Universe is also in 'just one order', or the one state, of constant-change.

[Age]

That's where the real philosophy begins: "Okay, but why this world from the many or infinite possibilities?"

Whatever way, shape, and form the Universe is in, at any given moment, is the ONLY way, shape, and form that 'the world' could be in.

The Universe, or 'the world' as some say and call 'it', is changing always, and in all ways.

The Universe can only ever always work, or behave, in the One and only way that it does, and is, NOW. There is, literally, no 'other way'.

[Age]

I admit I don't actually know what entropy means, is there even an agreed upon definition?
I guess it's something like, degree of order/disorder, number of possible configurations, at least from our perspective.

I think the only logical possibility is that the universe's entropy is constant,

BUT, there are ACTUALLY OTHER 'logical' and possibilities, as well as what ACTUALLY HAPPENS.

so if the Big Bang was a highly ordered state, and evolved to the present day's more disordered state,

But according to your so-called "logic" here, the 'present day's state' would be a so-called 'highly ordered state', compared to 'later on'.

then there must also exist a reverse process that decreases entropy, as we move forward in time.

WHY?

What has led you to IMAGINE or BELIEVE 'this' here?

To me, the best candidates seem to be black holes, where all matter falls towards a single point, maybe is condensed into a Planck-length. So looks like the singularity gets more ordered again.

What, EXACTLY, makes an 'infinite compression of matter state' MORE 'ordered' than 'a state', than 'a state' where there IS just 'space'?

And some even wilder speculation: as for facilitating the quantum observational effect (if there is such a thing at all), I think stars are better candidates than black holes. Stars are spherical and electromagnetic, so they might be good 4-dimensional facilitators or amplifiers of a 4 or more dimensional spherical-electromagnetic (mind-like) observational influence (again, if there is such a thing at all). Okay that made very little sense, would take a lot to unpack.

There IS some 'truth' in what you say here, but the words you used just need a bit of re-wording, to FIT IN WITH what IS ACTUALLY True, Right, AND Correct.

Go away God, no one asked you.

Another typical response from one who could not refute absolutely any thing that I have said and claimed here.

See, I can prove, absolutely True, Right, Accurate, and/or Correct what I say and write here. Which, as can be seen again here, annoyed these people, profusely.

[Age]

I believe that quantum fluctuations, virtual particles are manifestations of a layer of reality that's also entirely real, this layer is also an integral part of the universe, and is also nonlocally entangled.

I can agree with that.

And that's basically what I was referring to when I stated the following in the OP...

...there's always been this persistent mystery of what happens to the matter and light that crosses the event horizon of a black hole?

Well, perhaps it is simply dismantled and reduced back into whatever it is that is being represented in this fanciful depiction of the not-so-empty vacuum of space...



...where it (again, in the context of "non-local" reality) exists in the form of what Heisenberg called "potentia."

So I believe that quantum fluctuations are only apparently random, 'God' does not play dice, and of course something can't appear out of nothing.

Again, I agree.

And as a sidenote, that bolded bit reminds me of that stupid argument we had with VA a long time ago in your Kant thread where VA couldn't (and still can't) seem to understand what Kant was implying about the noumenon (or the "thing-in-itself") when Kant allegedly stated the following...

"...though we cannot know these objects as things in themselves, we must yet be in a position at least to think them as things in themselves; otherwise we should be landed in the absurd conclusion that there can be appearance without anything that appears..."

Now, of course, Kant knew nothing about quantum theory, but his "phenomenon/noumenon" concept seems to apply quite nicely to the "particle/wave" concept in quantum mechanics.

So anyway, yeah, the deeper ("non-local") layer of reality you mentioned is indeed real, but it's just the noumenal side of the same coin, with the other side of the coin (i.e., the side we can see, touch, hear, smell, and taste) being the phenomenal side.

So, these two have concluded, and agreed upon, that parts of 'reality' are, indeed, 'real'.

Well done you two, here.

Indeed, it is real in the same sense that whatever "it" is that spreads out into a superpositioned wave that then interferes with itself in the interim spaces of the double slit experiment...



...is "real."
_______

[Flannel Jesus]

I don't think black holes have a purpose. I think there are conditions in the universe that create them, and when those conditions are met, they are created.

Boring, I know. That's okay, I have other wacky ideas.

[Age]

Now, of course, Kant knew nothing about quantum theory, but his "phenomenon/noumenon" concept seems to apply quite nicely to the "particle/wave" concept in quantum mechanics.

I don't see how they have anything to do with each other. Noumena are the posited world beyond the appearances. The particle/wave concept is about a certain kind of behaviour of both phenomena and noumena.

So anyway, yeah, the deeper ("non-local") layer of reality you mentioned is indeed real, but it's just the noumenal side of the same coin, with the other side of the coin (i.e., the side we can see, touch, hear, smell, and taste) being the phenomenal side.

I don't know what you mean, there is nothing deep about nonlocality, and it isn't on any side. The particles that have always been viewed as real, are also bound by nonlocality. I'm fairly sure that the phenomena are also bound by nonlocality. They awarded the 2022 Nobel for proving nonlocality.

What I said was that I believe that the quantum fluctuations are also bound by nonlocality, they aren't random.

Indeed, it is real in the same sense that whatever "it" is that spreads out into a superpositioned wave that then interferes with itself in the interim spaces of the double slit experiment...

"it" is probably just the particle that is spread out. For example an electron. Looks like even a single electron is infinitely divisible and can infinitely interfere with itself across space and time. In the double slit, the wave is forced to go through one slit or the other, but looks like it's still an infinitely divisible wave, that keeps interfering with itself even as it goes through only one slit. However, going throughout one or the other slit, is a "digital" behaviour. So we have both behaviours at the same time. Ahh who knows, of course I pondered this for a long time too and ended up with 6-dimensional philosophies, quite impossible to describe in words.

So, 'this one', apparently, 'ponders' 'things, and, supposedly, ends up with so-called 'philosophies', but which, quite conveniently for it, it claims are so-called 'quite impossible to describe 'in words'.

Which makes me wonder, and ponder, if 'this one', allegedly, 'ended up with some philosophies', which are, apparently, quite impossible to describe 'in words', then what was it using 'in thought', if not 'words', themselves, when it, supposedly, 'ended up' with what it claims it did?

Either way, both this and nonlocality are like real magic to us..

Thank God the 'us' word is, only, referring to those human beings who were 'around' back in the 'olden days' when this was being written. For, obviously, what was so-called 'like real magic' were, and become, just basic commonly 'known', agreed upon, and accepted knowledge.

Just like the earth revolving the sun was once seen as, and believed, to be 'like real magic', once upon a time, also.

[Age]

ONCE AGAIN we have ANOTHER one who can NOT refute what I SAY and CLAIM here as well as NOT being able to just back up and support what they SAY and CLAIM, which I have QUESTIONED or CHALLENGED them ABOUT.

Almost everything science-related you said, was already easily refuted.

LOL

Are these the EXACT WORDS that I have said and used here?

Or, are they just another example of what you have IMAGINED, PRESUMED, and/or BELIEVED here?

If the former, then prove it.

If you do not, then this is just another example of you COMPLETELY and UTTERLY MISSING, MISINTERPRETING, MISUNDERSTANDING, and/or just 'trying to' DECEIVE the readers here, ONCE MORE.

God and Age have the same shortcomings, a truly remarkable coincidence. If God is so remarkably dumb and incapable of speaking human, then God should know its place and remain silent.

LOL ONCE AGAIN, absolutely NOTHING of ANY SUBSTANCE AT ALL here,

There is absolutely NO REFUTATION of absolutely ANY thing I have said and claimed here.

All there is is some Truly WEIRD and STRANGE IMAGINATION of "atla's" here, ONLY.

LOL Just try and refute any thing at all that I said and wrote here "atla".

But, you WILL NOT, BECAUSE you CAN NOT.

As you will, ONCE MORE, prove me ABSOLUTELY True, AGAIN.



Also, what can be CLEARLY SEEN here is another prime example of the 'human being' BELIEVING that God, Itself, should REDUCE ITSELF to the human being level, and understanding. And, it is never about the human being LEARNING and INCREASING, nor LIFTING "Itself" UP, to a much better or HIGHER level of comprehension and understanding, here.

[Age]

Now, of course, Kant knew nothing about quantum theory, but his "phenomenon/noumenon" concept seems to apply quite nicely to the "particle/wave" concept in quantum mechanics.

I don't see how they have anything to do with each other. Noumena are the posited world beyond the appearances.

Right...

And functioning in a noumenal world "...beyond the appearances..." is precisely what is implied about the ontological status of the wave aspect of an electron, for example, that is transitioning in the interim space between the double-slitted wall and the phosphorescent screen in the D.S. experiment...



What I am getting at is that whatever is taking place with that superpositioned electron in that interim space of the D.S. experiment...

(something that can only be indirectly described by the Schrödinger equation)

...is completely inaccessible to us --> just like Kant's noumenon.

From Wiki:

"...The term noumenon is generally used in contrast with, or in relation to, the term phenomenon, which refers to any object of the senses. Immanuel Kant first developed the notion of the noumenon as part of his transcendental idealism, suggesting that while we know the noumenal world to exist...

...as in by pure reason, we know something involving that electron (something real and existent) is taking place in that interim space of the D.S. experiment, however,...

...it is not itself sensible and must therefore remain otherwise unknowable to us..." — Wiki

Indeed, that's why it's called "non-local" reality, in that it is unknowable to us by any direct means.

HOW the Universe works here, now, is HOW the Universse works in EVERY part, spatially, and at EVERY moment, temporally.

This can be 'known', and, is in fact, already 'known'.

Moreover, you yourself implied a correlative relationship between the two concepts when you stated the following...

The particle/wave concept is about a certain kind of behaviour of both phenomena and noumena.

So, I'm confused as to why you would wonder about how they would have something to do with each other?

Because, just like about almost every discussion in this forum, you human beings talk 'past' or 'over' each other.

Instead of just asking what 'the other' actually mean, nor what 'they' are actually referring to, you all just PRESUME 'the other' is saying, meaning, or referring to some particular thing, when, quite often, they are not.

Which is, exactly, what is happening, and occurring, here, ONCE AGAIN. you two are talking about, meaning, and referring to 'different things'.

So anyway, yeah, the deeper ("non-local") layer of reality you mentioned is indeed real, but it's just the noumenal side of the same coin, with the other side of the coin (i.e., the side we can see, touch, hear, smell, and taste) being the phenomenal side.

I don't know what you mean, there is nothing deep about nonlocality,...

The deepness comes by reason of the fact that, again, like Kant's noumena, non-local reality is...

"...not itself sensible and must therefore remain otherwise unknowable to us..."

In other words, how much deeper (as in dark and mysterious) can something get than that which is actually real and taking place in some "non-local" context of existence, yet is unknowable to us because it is forever beyond the reach of our senses?

Once again, what 'we' can CLEARLY SEE here is another great example of two people talking about what 'another' meant, and was referring to, without EVER even just considering that what both of them is saying and claiming is just their OWN interpretation, which, from the very start, could be ABSOLUTELY COMPLETELY and UTTERLY False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and/or Incorrect, anyway.

And, what made this all the more HILARIOUS to watch and observe play out, even when 'the another' is ALIVE, and in THE DISCUSSION, these posters here, just like these two here, would NOT just ASK FOR CLARIFICATION.

In other words, even if "immanuel kant" was alive, and 'kicking' as would say, and was 'here', in this forum, these two would NOT just ask for CLARIFICATION from "immanuel kant", and instead they would keep doing what they are here, which is to just PRESUME, or BELIEVE, that 'they' knew what 'the other' was meaning, and/or referring to.

Although this would seem like a Truly IMPOSSIBLE thing that human beings would have done, in the past, this is EXACTLY what they DID DO. As, again, can be CLEARLY SEEN, and PROVED True, here.

The particles that have always been viewed as real, are also bound by nonlocality.

Yes, and that is precisely what I have been implying with my hologram illustration...



In other words, what we experience as being "separate" objects up here in the context of "local" reality...

(what physicist David Bohm calls the "Explicate Order")

...is an illusion that is represented by the explicated objects in the hologram.

It is an illusion that I furthermore suggest is founded upon the interplay taking place between consciousness and that of entangled ("non-local") fields of information that reside in that "layer" you mentioned earlier, or what Bohm calls the "Implicate Order".

I'm fairly sure that the phenomena are also bound by nonlocality. They awarded the 2022 Nobel for proving nonlocality.

Of course "particles" and "phenomena"...

(which are both simply referencing Kant's "sensible" aspects of reality and are thus, from that perspective, synonymous)

...are indeed bound by nonlocality.

Look again at the implication of the righthand side of my hologram illustration.

Indeed, it is real in the same sense that whatever "it" is that spreads out into a superpositioned wave that then interferes with itself in the interim spaces of the double slit experiment...

"it" is probably just the particle that is spread out.

Not according to "Pilot Wave" theory.

The point is that physicists don't really know. Hence all of the unresolved issues involving the "measurement problem."

I, on the other hand, being someone who believes (right or wrong) that literally everything is constructed from "mind stuff," suggest that whatever the (natural) process is that transforms (decodes) fields of information into the vivid, three-dimensional features of our dreams when we direct our consciousness (our attention/awareness) inward when sleeping,...

...is the same (natural) process that transforms (decodes) similar fields of information into the vivid, three-dimensional features of the universe when we direct our consciousness outward while awake.

Ahh who knows, of course I pondered this for a long time too and ended up with 6-dimensional philosophies, quite impossible to describe in words.

Either way, both this and nonlocality are like real magic to us.

Agreed.
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[Age]

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There is no doubt a better analogy, but I suggest that, aside from thermodynamics, black holes might be the metaphorical "pistons" that help turn the crankshaft of the great engine of the universe by causing the perpetual movement of the underlying substance from which matter is composed.

I suspect that this is nothing new, but what I am proposing is that due to quantum entanglement theoretically connecting all matter together in a homogenous and interpenetrating state of "oneness" at what physicists call the "non-local" level of reality - something that is loosely demonstrated in the informationally-based underpinning of the laser hologram,...



...it therefore suggests that the gravitational workings of just one black hole alone (via the ol' "spooky action at a distance") could affect (as in move) the entire underlying fabric of reality to some miniscule degree.

However, according to an article on the website "LIVESCIENCE", it is estimated that...

In which case, just imagine the dynamic (churning/moving/powering) affect that 40 quintillion black holes would have on the entangled oneness of the quantum underpinning of the universe.

In parallel with that, there's always been this persistent mystery of what happens to the matter and light that crosses the event horizon of a black hole?

What do you mean by there has 'always' been 'this persistent mystery of what happens ...'?

1. This mystery, which only applies to some of you human beings, has never 'always' been.

2. What happens to the matter and light that crosses the event horizon of a black hole 'is obvious'.

1. The light cannot be seen by you observers on the "other side" of the so-called 'event horizon', because matter and light is getting 'sucked in' or 'attracted' by and to the singularity, at 'the end' of a black hole, quicker than the speed of light. So, this is why you observers cannot see the light.

The 'gravitation pull' is just stronger, and/or just faster, than the speed of light. (Which, by the way, is how and why so-called 'time travel' became 'a thing'. But, this is for another topic, and another discussion, at a 'later date' as some might say.)

2. The matter is just compressed 'infinitely', which just means that there is no 'space' between 'matter', itself, into one singular object/piece of matter, also known as 'singularity', itself. And, the 'singularity' remains 'as such' until 'one day/at some point/in one moment' 'it' expands, with 'a bang', or as some might call it 'the big bang'. Depending, on course, on where 'one' is 'relatively to it', exactly.

And, from the perspective of 'singularity', itself, or from the 'other side of singularity', that is; those who are 'looking back' at a 'particular bang', to some of them anyway, there was no 'before' the 'big bang', and this is just because 'before any of those bangs', from the perspective of 'after' only anyway, there was only 'singularity', itself, and, obviously, for what is called 'time' to be happening and/or occurring at least two pieces/objects of matter are needed, as well as a 'light source'.

All of this might not yet be known, nor understood, fully by you posters here, but, soon enough, it will, and did, become just 'normal' everyday knowledge that becomes, and become, crystal clear.

Well, perhaps it is simply dismantled and reduced back into whatever it is that is being represented in this fanciful depiction of the not-so-empty vacuum of space...

There are only two things that are 'fundamental' in the always infinite and eternal Universe, and they are 'matter' and 'space', with 'space' just being a word or term used to describe 'the distance' between, and/or around 'matter', itself.

'Space' just being the invisible part of the Universe, and, 'matter' just being the visible part of the Universe, Itself.

Every other 'thing' is created, or caused, from the visible matter just interacting with 'it self'.

...where it (again, in the context of "non-local" reality) exists in the form of what Heisenberg called "potentia."

In other words, the matter that disappears into a black hole is simply transformed back into Heisenberg's raw potentia substance...

But, 'the matter' that just goes into a black hole does NOT 'disappear'. It just forms into 'an infinite compression of matter', until it eventually just expands in/with/at a 'bang', (of varying sizes. Some are just bigger than other ones are).

(an infinitely malleable substance, mind you, that, according to quantum theory, is not very "real" itself, but is capable of becoming anything real imaginable)

...that is then reused in the creation of new manifestations of observable phenomena up here in the context of what physicists call "local" reality.

It is the 'Universe', It-Self, which is what IS Creating 'Everything', the Universe, Itself, and which is eternal, all-powerful, and everything else that is associated with 'God, the Creator', words.

The Universe, Itself, being in an always continual evolving-creation process is the very Thing that is Creating, Its Self, always, HERE-NOW. Or, in another word is what God, It-Self, actually IS.

And, it was through through evolution, or 'constant-change', how an organic species with a brain, which works just like a computer does, or with computer capabilities, is HOW 'I', eventually, came to 'KNOW' thy 'Self', exactly.

Furthermore, to throw everything (including the kitchen sink) into this speculative venture, perhaps the question of what black holes expel from their backsides is somehow related to the mystery of what dark energy and dark matter are made of.

What is at the so-called 'end' of a black hole is the EXACT SAME thing at the so-called 'beginning' of the Universe, Itself, and that is just 'singularity', itself.

So, what is so-called 'expelled' from the so-called 'backsides' of black holes is JUST 'bangs', of varying sizes. Some are 'big bangs', while some are 'small bangs' or 'smaller ones'. But, again, because absolutely EVERY thing is 'relative', to 'the observer', 'the size' of 'the bang' is 'relative, also.

For example, if one wants to, or chooses to, 'look at' 'the bang', from which they have come 'directly after' or 'directly from', then they can 'see' 'that bang' as the so-called 'big bang', (or as 'the one' that created and caused absolutely EVERY thing), or, they can decide, and choose, to just 'look at' 'that bang' as just 'another bang, out of 'countless other bangs'. Of which ALL are happening and occurring within One, infinite and eternal, Universe, Itself.

Anyway, in conclusion, not only might black holes be the metaphorical "pistons" that, along with thermodynamics, help keep the cogs and gears of the great engine of the universe moving,...

...but they may also function as cosmic "recycling bins" for the very foundational essence from which reality is formed.

Maybe so.

Does anyone else have any suggestions as to what the purpose of black holes might be?
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Could the 'purpose' of black holes be to, as you already suggested, just to 'suck in', or 'clean up', all of the matter around a, relative, 'local area' to a 'point of singularity', to then just 'expel', or 'regurgitate', all of 'that matter', again, from and with 'a bang', and with 'an expansion', so that 'one day', eventually, the Creator of all-of-this could, eventually, come-to-know thy 'Self'?

If as you say here there 'was a purpose', of or for black holes, then this implies that there was 'an intention' made, and obviously 'an intention' would have to be 'made' by some thing with some 'awareness' or with some sort of 'consciousness', itself.

So, just maybe, the 'purpose' of black holes was to just keep 'regurgitating' matter, itself, until it, eventually, 'formed' into a biological organism, with intelligence, or the ability to learn, understand, and/or reason absolutely any and every thing, and with 'an organ' that has the ability to gather, obtain, and store the knowledge, and/or information, from what 'it' has learned and understood, 'along the way'.

If there were no black holes, then 'the way' matter was 'forming', and/or being formed', 'along the way' could, and would, go in 'one way', only. However, with black holes, and the continual 'sucking in and cleaning up' matter, and with the continual 'expelling and expanding' of matter, again and again, and over and over, then maybe it was 'known' that, eventually, 'I', the Creator of all-there-is, could come-to-know thy Self.

Maybe it was only through the 'cleaning up' and 'recycling' process that 'black holes, singularities, and bangs/expansions' cause that 'I', the Creator of ALL, could come to not just 'know thy Self' but to also come-to-know HOW, and WHY 'I' am Creating every thing and all-of-this.

How 'I', the Universe, am Creating every thing, always, is just through the continual action-re-action process, which is allowed to occur from the 'space' between 'matter', which allows 'matter' to move about, absolutely FREELY, to inter-act with 'it-self', which is was causes and creates all 'new' things, and which also allows 'all things' to evolve, as well. Through an always constant-change of 'I' this is HOW the Universe, 'all things', are formed, and re-formed, and even in-formed, like 'you' beings, and people, are with-in human bodies, with the in-formation, which is 'in-forming you all, continually, and also HOW 'you', human beings, were 'trans-formed' from what was before, to evolve into what, and who, 'you' are 'now', which will keep evolving into being Created in (and) to the next 'trans-form-ation', 'along the process', to be-coming what was meant-to-Be. Through evolution 'I' am Creating what 'I' want. Which is just 'to be' living in peace, and in harmony, with one and all, as One, forever more.

And, WHY there are 'all things', and 'all-of-this', instead of absolutely nothing, and 'no things', is so that 'I' can bear witness to this One Creation, and to ALL of what 'I' am Creating.

Black holes were just a 'necessary' part in ALL-OF-THIS.

The 'space' in and around 'matter', 'in expansion', is removed, completely, at 'the end' of black hole, at singularity, so as to re-direct 'matter', itself, into 'a new beginning', at the start, and beginning, at every new 'big bang'. With every 'new expansion' there is 'another chance' that what was intended, meant, or (pre) determined, 'to be', will be-come, and Be.

A question 'could be', am 'I' be-coming what 'I' was 'meant to be', or will 'I' just remain where 'I' was 'not meant to be'.

Was the 'purpose' of black holes to help 'Me' to be, and be-come, who 'I' have, already, come-to-be, or where they meant to stop 'Me' from be-coming who I was 'not meant to Be?

A childish and illogical theory, as I pointed out before.

But, still, you are absolutely UNABLE to refute any of it.

And, you just calling it childish and illogical, only, shows just how immature and incapable you really are, here.

What made you write it all down in one go?

LOL 'it all down'.