I posted this in response to a YouTube video commentary concerning William Lane Craig debating a Muslim theologian. I think it succinctly sums up my position with regard to religion pretty well and I would like to share it here.
I can't bring myself to subscribe to the notion that God punishes those who question the divinity of Jesus and I can't bring myself to subscribe to the notion that God wants or otherwise cares if we "submit" to him (her/it/or whatever pronoun God prefers).
I just think everyone is having an enormous, voluminous debate over things that we just can't know the answers to. I mean, I don't have the answers either so, fair enough, I don't know that my skeptic/agnostic inclinations are the best course (or whatever).
I wasn't brought up Christian and I wasn't brought up Muslim. Do I think there might be a God? absolutely. There are reasons a person can believe there is a God. But there are also some reasons to question the whole God hypothesis (or at least the human renditions of it). To me, that in itself is a little suspicious (why it is that God doesn't just come out to each of us and say, "Hi, I'm God. I exist. Do what you will, I'll be grading you."). Why the mysteriousness, especially when salvation allegedly depends upon one's relationship with this being. I mean, if I were to subscribe to a religion, it would probably be neither Christianity nor Islam. Both seem problematic from where I stand. But yes, I can't tell anyone what to believe. I suppose I can only do what seems right to me. Such is the world.
Once you people discover, or learn, and understand, who and what 'God' is, exactly, then all of the Wrong, and Right, conceptions will come-to-light, as well.
Now, if absolutely any one wants to discover, or learn, and understand, how to find out who and what God is, exactly, then just become truly Honest, fully Open, and seriously Wanting to change, for the better.
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:44 am
I posted this in response to a YouTube video commentary concerning William Lane Craig debating a Muslim theologian. I think it succinctly sums up my position with regard to religion pretty well and I would like to share it here.
I can't bring myself to subscribe to the notion that God punishes those who question the divinity of Jesus and I can't bring myself to subscribe to the notion that God wants or otherwise cares if we "submit" to him (her/it/or whatever pronoun God prefers).
Thoughts?
My thoughts are, it speaks volumes that there are scores of men who got wealthy convincing people to submit to their God. Churches are a for-profit endeavour for men. (I'm sure there are some interesting exceptions, but it seems generally true)
I agree that the Islamic concept of God is superior to the Christian one since you are doomed to eternal punishment if you don't believe in Jesus (He is the way, He is God...) whereas in Islamic conception the punishment is proportion to your sins.
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 1:28 pm
I agree that the Islamic concept of God is superior to the Christian one since you are doomed to eternal punishment if you don't believe in Jesus (He is the way, He is God...) whereas in Islamic conception the punishment is proportion to your sins.
See the thread I just created:
Many Christians "reject Christ and His words" viewtopic.php?t=42908
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 1:28 pm
I agree that the Islamic concept of God is superior to the Christian one since you are doomed to eternal punishment if you don't believe in Jesus (He is the way, He is God...) whereas in Islamic conception the punishment is proportion to your sins.
I believe the morality within Christianity is far superior than Islam, i.e.
'love all, even enemies' give the other cheek, and so on.
On the other hand,
the God of Islam permit believers to kill disbelievers because disbelief itself is a threat [fasadin] to the religion, this is already a reality.
Q5:33. Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and spread mischief [fasadin] in the land is death, ...
"fasadin" is a loose word for any threat to the religion which would include being a disbeliever of the religion which potentially posed a threat to the religion.
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 1:28 pm
I agree that the Islamic concept of God is superior to the Christian one since you are doomed to eternal punishment if you don't believe in Jesus (He is the way, He is God...) whereas in Islamic conception the punishment is proportion to your sins.
See the thread I just created:
Many Christians "reject Christ and His words" viewtopic.php?t=42908
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 1:28 pm
I agree that the Islamic concept of God is superior to the Christian one since you are doomed to eternal punishment if you don't believe in Jesus (He is the way, He is God...) whereas in Islamic conception the punishment is proportion to your sins.
The references are given in the link you provided. Haven't you read them!?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:04 am
I believe the morality within Christianity is far superior than Islam, i.e.
'love all, even enemies' give the other cheek, and so on.
Yes, love your enemy even though they are promised eternal hell!
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:04 am
On the other hand,
the God of Islam permit believers to kill disbelievers because disbelief itself is a threat [fasadin] to the religion, this is already a reality.
Q5:33. Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and spread mischief [fasadin] in the land is death, ...
"fasadin" is a loose word for any threat to the religion which would include being a disbeliever of the religion which potentially posed a threat to the religion.
I have to say that I am not a believer yet the enemy of God receives temporary punishment in Hell according to Islam.
bahman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 1:28 pm
I agree that the Islamic concept of God is superior to the Christian one since you are doomed to eternal punishment if you don't believe in Jesus (He is the way, He is God...) whereas in Islamic conception the punishment is proportion to your sins.
The references are given in the link you provided. Haven't you read them!?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:04 am
I believe the morality within Christianity is far superior than Islam, i.e.
'love all, even enemies' give the other cheek, and so on.
Yes, love your enemy even though they are promised eternal hell!
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:04 am
On the other hand,
the God of Islam permit believers to kill disbelievers because disbelief itself is a threat [fasadin] to the religion, this is already a reality.
Q5:33. Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and spread mischief [fasadin] in the land is death, ...
"fasadin" is a loose word for any threat to the religion which would include being a disbeliever of the religion which potentially posed a threat to the religion.
I have to say that I am not a believer yet the enemy of God receives temporary punishment in Hell according to Islam.
It is said so but that is not true in the ultimate sense.
Off hand, when a Muslim dies, he will first to the a transit "hell" before judgment day. After judgment day, non-believers and sinners will be doomed to eternal hellfire.
Question
Will the torment of the people of Hell in Hell be neverending, or will there come a time when it will end?.
Here is one verse among the many hundreds of eternal torture in hell:
Q4:56 for, verily, those who are bent on denying the truth of Our messages We shall, in time, cause to endure fire: [and] every time their skins are burnt off, We shall replace them with new skins, so that they may taste suffering [in full] Verily, God is almighty, wise
Mostly Western Protestants defeating Satan and a thousand-year reign of peace. Jesus teaches defeating Satan and a thousand-year reign of peace. Mostly Western Protestants teaches Jesus. Rudolph Otto (1869-1937) stands all the phenomena we observe and call religion. Human religious awareness and behavior stands all the phenomena we observe and call religion. Otto stand human religious awareness and behavior. Rudolph Otto (1869-1937) The Idea of the Holy 1923 CE. Very informative book and worth the read.
The references are given in the link you provided. Haven't you read them!?
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:04 am
I believe the morality within Christianity is far superior than Islam, i.e.
'love all, even enemies' give the other cheek, and so on.
Yes, love your enemy even though they are promised eternal hell!
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:04 am
On the other hand,
the God of Islam permit believers to kill disbelievers because disbelief itself is a threat [fasadin] to the religion, this is already a reality.
"fasadin" is a loose word for any threat to the religion which would include being a disbeliever of the religion which potentially posed a threat to the religion.
I have to say that I am not a believer yet the enemy of God receives temporary punishment in Hell according to Islam.
It is said so but that is not true in the ultimate sense.
Off hand, when a Muslim dies, he will first to the a transit "hell" before judgment day. After judgment day, non-believers and sinners will be doomed to eternal hellfire.
Here is one verse among the many hundreds of eternal torture in hell:
Q4:56 for, verily, those who are bent on denying the truth of Our messages We shall, in time, cause to endure fire: [and] every time their skins are burnt off, We shall replace them with new skins, so that they may taste suffering [in full] Verily, God is almighty, wise
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 1:41 pm
The references are given in the link you provided. Haven't you read them!?
Yes, love your enemy even though they are promised eternal hell!
I have to say that I am not a believer yet the enemy of God receives temporary punishment in Hell according to Islam.
It is said so but that is not true in the ultimate sense.
Off hand, when a Muslim dies, he will first to the a transit "hell" before judgment day. After judgment day, non-believers and sinners will be doomed to eternal hellfire.
So, the punishment is temporary.
The transition place is merely called 'Hell' but there is no punishment while all are awaiting Judgment by God.
Here is one verse among the many hundreds of eternal torture in hell:
Q4:56 for, verily, those who are bent on denying the truth of Our messages We shall, in time, cause to endure fire: [and] every time their skins are burnt off, We shall replace them with new skins, so that they may taste suffering [in full] Verily, God is almighty, wise
Where is written eternal?
Note "every time" [no indication of stopping] which imply eternal and the point of eternality is supported by loads of text in the holy book.
You can make the simply inference, i.e. from the obvious eternal life in paradise, so is it eternal torture [as a threat] in hell.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 3:04 am
It is said so but that is not true in the ultimate sense.
Off hand, when a Muslim dies, he will first to the a transit "hell" before judgment day. After judgment day, non-believers and sinners will be doomed to eternal hellfire.
So, the punishment is temporary.
The transition place is merely called 'Hell' but there is no punishment while all are awaiting Judgment by God.
Here is one verse among the many hundreds of eternal torture in hell:
Q4:56 for, verily, those who are bent on denying the truth of Our messages We shall, in time, cause to endure fire: [and] every time their skins are burnt off, We shall replace them with new skins, so that they may taste suffering [in full] Verily, God is almighty, wise
Where is written eternal?
Note "every time" [no indication of stopping] which imply eternal and the point of eternality is supported by loads of text in the holy book.
You can make the simply inference, i.e. from the obvious eternal life in paradise, so is it eternal torture [as a threat] in hell.
It does not mean that it is eternal. It does not say eternal.
bahman wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 10:37 am
So, the punishment is temporary.
The transition place is merely called 'Hell' but there is no punishment while all are awaiting Judgment by God.
Where is written eternal?
Note "every time" [no indication of stopping] which imply eternal and the point of eternality is supported by loads of text in the holy book.
You can make the simply inference, i.e. from the obvious eternal life in paradise, so is it eternal torture [as a threat] in hell.
It does not mean that it is eternal. It does not say eternal.
The default belief is 'hell in eternal' but there are others who may argue against that by twisting words from the verses.
Question
Will the torment of the people of Hell in Hell be neverending, or will there come a time when it will end?.
The people of Hell will remain in Hell being tormented without end. This is indicated by a great deal of evidence from the Quran and Sunnah.
