compatibilism

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Iwannaplato
Posts: 8535
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Iwannaplato »

I appeciate your suggestions below and I wonder if they are his current final positions on things.
phyllo wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:14 pm I think that there are two reasons why he doesn't present an argument or counter-argument.

1 - His idea that arguments are useless, ineffective and merely represent dasein, compelled thoughts and/or intellectual contraptions. Let's call that the failure of philosophy.
Well, let's look at this idea. 1) If this is what he believes, then there is absolutely no reason to quote arguments or make his gestural arguments in response. 2) What an odd place to blog, then.
Therefore, he asks for demonstrations and the input of scientists and neurologists who actually go beyond arguments.
Which is absurd. First, scientists would be mounting a specific kind of argument, generally, if they stayed within their disciplines lines, an inductive argument. Second, he would be, then, assuming that these people a) are immune to paradigmatic bias - in other words biases in their models and the current assumptions in science that lead to interpretations of data. 3) There are science forums. One could email neuroscientists. I've found that in general even nobel level researchers will respond to emails. They may not invest a lot of time, but often they respond. It's easy to find their addresses, generally. Wiki to find where they work, and look up their faculty profile there.

4) Most important of all, he has asked compatibilists to explain how in a deterministic universe one can assign responsibility. That is NOT science topic, that's a philosophical topic. Generally scientists assume determinism. The compatibilist is presuming determinsm. So, the issues are better focused on in philosophy, because the issue is not is the universe determined everywhere or is there free will in some places. Sure, then physicists and neuroscientists could weigh in.

But since compatibilists assume determinism, that's not on the table in this discussion. So, we are dealing with issues that cannot be tested for in science. It's not a science topic.
2 - Presenting an argument requires effort and work. He doesn't want to do the work. And he doesn't want the hassle of being criticized and having to defend his argument.
I think this fits with the data we have better. I am not saying it's true, just saying it fits with the data. He may well believe your first point about arguments, but it doesn't quite fit his behavior Further, it's a confused reason not to actually support his positions. He certain expects objectivists to support their positions.


Then last, the problem is that he has made epistemological nihilist assertions. That we can't know things while at the same time elsewhere asking for what scientists believe.

The problem is that if determinism, as he has argued, means that we are potentially merely compelled to belief what we believe, this holds for whatever scientists would say. Perhaps the scientists are compelled to interpret that data the way we do. Perhaps he is compelled to think the scientists are saying X, when in fact they are saying Y.

Over and over he has denied the possibility of knowing things if determinism is the case......yet

he will then go on and ask for or mull over what scientists can demonstrate or might.

This makes no sense. His argument, weak as it is, holds for scientists telling us situations, as much as any other.

Or it is in fact him saying that scientists have free wills and somehow we have them in their company, but everyone else does not.

And, by the way, his determinism means we can never know if we are compelled to hold what seems like a logical, reasonable position, while it may not at all be assertions

utterly undermine his distinction between is and ought.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 4302
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:29 pmThe compatibilist is presuming determinsm.
Not necessarily. You can be a compatibilist and reject determinism. In fact, knowing that the majority of academic philosophers are compatibilists, I would also wager more than half of those compatibilists are not strictly determinists. Some really large fraction of them may accept some kind of quantum randomness or something.
User avatar
phyllo
Posts: 2525
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:58 pm
Location: Victory in Ukraine

Re: compatibilism

Post by phyllo »

phyllo wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:14 pm I think that there are two reasons why he doesn't present an argument or counter-argument.

1 - His idea that arguments are useless, ineffective and merely represent dasein, compelled thoughts and/or intellectual contraptions. Let's call that the failure of philosophy.
Well, let's look at this idea. 1) If this is what he believes, then there is absolutely no reason to quote arguments or make his gestural arguments in response. 2) What an odd place to blog, then.
Therefore, he asks for demonstrations and the input of scientists and neurologists who actually go beyond arguments.
Which is absurd. First, scientists would be mounting a specific kind of argument, generally, if they stayed within their disciplines lines, an inductive argument. Second, he would be, then, assuming that these people a) are immune to paradigmatic bias - in other words biases in their models and the current assumptions in science that lead to interpretations of data. 3) There are science forums. One could email neuroscientists. I've found that in general even nobel level researchers will respond to emails. They may not invest a lot of time, but often they respond. It's easy to find their addresses, generally. Wiki to find where they work, and look up their faculty profile there.

4) Most important of all, he has asked compatibilists to explain how in a deterministic universe one can assign responsibility. That is NOT science topic, that's a philosophical topic. Generally scientists assume determinism. The compatibilist is presuming determinsm. So, the issues are better focused on in philosophy, because the issue is not is the universe determined everywhere or is there free will in some places. Sure, then physicists and neuroscientists could weigh in.

But since compatibilists assume determinism, that's not on the table in this discussion. So, we are dealing with issues that cannot be tested for in science. It's not a science topic.
2 - Presenting an argument requires effort and work. He doesn't want to do the work. And he doesn't want the hassle of being criticized and having to defend his argument.
I think this fits with the data we have better. I am not saying it's true, just saying it fits with the data. He may well believe your first point about arguments, but it doesn't quite fit his behavior Further, it's a confused reason not to actually support his positions. He certain expects objectivists to support their positions.


Then last, the problem is that he has made epistemological nihilist assertions. That we can't know things while at the same time elsewhere asking for what scientists believe.

The problem is that if determinism, as he has argued, means that we are potentially merely compelled to belief what we believe, this holds for whatever scientists would say. Perhaps the scientists are compelled to interpret that data the way we do. Perhaps he is compelled to think the scientists are saying X, when in fact they are saying Y.

Over and over he has denied the possibility of knowing things if determinism is the case......yet

he will then go on and ask for or mull over what scientists can demonstrate or might.

This makes no sense. His argument, weak as it is, holds for scientists telling us situations, as much as any other.

Or it is in fact him saying that scientists have free wills and somehow we have them in their company, but everyone else does not.

And, by the way, his determinism means we can never know if we are compelled to hold what seems like a logical, reasonable position, while it may not at all be assertions

utterly undermine his distinction between is and ought.
I think you are asking "why is he here?" and "why is he posting as he is?".

I would say ...

He wants to express his ideas. He wants lots of people to read what he is writing. That's why he has written several times about how many views "his threads" get. (Ignore the bots and the fact that real viewers may be more interested in what other posters write in the threads than what he writes.)

He wants to have some interaction with people, otherwise it seems that he would be stuck in his apartment watching TV.

He wants to "shoot fish in a barrel". That's his entertainment. He wants to feel superior to other posters who don't understand as much as he does. he's toying with people who respond to him 'ineffectively'. His Magus game.

Why does he ask questions? To draw people into the game. The fish have to be lured to the surface in order to shoot them.

Why not go to a science forum? Because he doesn't know much science. He doesn't want to make the effort to read scientific papers which he would not understand anyways. He would be the weak poster in a science forum.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:37 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:29 pmThe compatibilist is presuming determinsm.
Not necessarily. You can be a compatibilist and reject determinism. In fact, knowing that the majority of academic philosophers are compatibilists, I would also wager more than half of those compatibilists are not strictly determinists. Some really large fraction of them may accept some kind of quantum randomness or something.
That doesn't work.

To be the pawn of "random" factors is even worse than to be the pawn of strict determinism. At least in a strictly determined universe, we could expect things like natural laws to apply, and so science would be theoretically possible (though still practically impossible, because the scientists' minds would be determined to believe, rather than responding to truth). In a random universe, there would be no predictable regularities, no "laws" making things work in particular ways, such as cause-and-effect. Random events are unpredictable. So there would be no possibility of science; how can you discover "laws" for something genuinely random? If it has "laws," then it isn't random at all. :shock:

Is it better to be one kind of pawn than another? If you could choose, you should prefer strict, materialist determinism, I would say. But of course, determinists think you can't "choose" anyway: we're all pawns.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 4302
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 3:23 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:37 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:29 pmThe compatibilist is presuming determinsm.
Not necessarily. You can be a compatibilist and reject determinism. In fact, knowing that the majority of academic philosophers are compatibilists, I would also wager more than half of those compatibilists are not strictly determinists. Some really large fraction of them may accept some kind of quantum randomness or something.
That doesn't work.
You don't even know what I'm saying.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:44 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 3:23 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:37 pm

Not necessarily. You can be a compatibilist and reject determinism. In fact, knowing that the majority of academic philosophers are compatibilists, I would also wager more than half of those compatibilists are not strictly determinists. Some really large fraction of them may accept some kind of quantum randomness or something.
That doesn't work.
You don't even know what I'm saying.
I guess you should say it better, then. :wink:

What you've essentially said is that "the majority of academic philosophers" (citation?) are Compatiblists. And, that you "wager" they're also not strict Determinists. So you're "wagering" on this uncited mass of "academic philosophers." I seem to understand you so far.

Then you say that something "may" be "acceptable" to them...this mass of uncited "academic philosophers," on whom you're "wagering."

You might be right. Or you might not. We have no way of knowing, from what you say. But even if there were such a group of "academic philosophers," there are a lot of "academic philosophers" who believe absurd things: like Marxism, or that men can be women, or that the world runs on racism, or that Israel caused the Gaza war, or that Biden was the most popular presidential candidate in history, or that climate change will doom us all if Canada doesn't shut down -- but letting China and India industrialize will be just fine...

In fact, such beliefs are constant in the world of "acanaemia." :wink:
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 4302
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:53 pm
You've already seen the evidence that more than half of academic philosophers are compatibilists.

Anyway, I'm going to break down what I'm actually saying into far simpler terms, and generic terms. Forget about free will entirely, and just look at the word 'compatibilism' as a word derived from the word 'compatible', and forget for a moment that the word ever had anything to do with free will or determinism.

Generically, a 'compatibilism' is a belief that two things, A and B, are compatible. In general, someone can believe that A and B are compatible (and thus be a compatibilist about A-and-B), while still believing that one (maybe both) of A or B are false.

You're trying too hard to force conversations into arguments about what's true and not true about free will. My point, which you replied to, isn't a point about whether compatibilism is true, or free will is true, or determinism is true - it's about what sorts of beliefs compatibilists have. I don't care if you don't think compatibilism makes sense. It's not relevant to me. It's not relevant to the thing I said which you quoted.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:08 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:53 pm
You've already seen the evidence that more than half of academic philosophers are compatibilists.
I must have missed it. But even were it so, it would be irrelevant...just a case of bandwagon fallacy, unless you could show that they'd actually thought about it, and that their reasons for believing in it were good.

Are they? Can you show that their reasons are good?
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 4302
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:12 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:08 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:53 pm
You've already seen the evidence that more than half of academic philosophers are compatibilists.
I must have missed it. But even were it so, it would be irrelevant...just a case of bandwagon fallacy, unless you could show that they'd actually thought about it, and that their reasons for believing in it were good.

Are they? Can you show that their reasons are good?
You haven't missed it, you looked at it and talked about it. There's no reason for us to talk about it any longer apparently though.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:15 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:12 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:08 pm

You've already seen the evidence that more than half of academic philosophers are compatibilists.
I must have missed it. But even were it so, it would be irrelevant...just a case of bandwagon fallacy, unless you could show that they'd actually thought about it, and that their reasons for believing in it were good.

Are they? Can you show that their reasons are good?
You haven't missed it, you looked at it and talked about it. There's no reason for us to talk about it any longer apparently though.
Ah. So...no academic philosophers, and no proof of what they believe, and no knowledge of on what basis they would believe it, if they believed it.

And you don't want to defend Compatibilism, just to define it and then immunize that against questions.

Well, you might be right...there might be no more to say.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 4302
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:24 pm Ah. So...no academic philosophers, and no proof of what they believe
I will, against my better judgement, assume you literally forgot.

https://philpapers.org/archive/BOUWDP

No idea why you're still talking about this, when you've already said you don't care.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:28 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:24 pm Ah. So...no academic philosophers, and no proof of what they believe
I will, against my better judgement, assume you literally forgot.

https://philpapers.org/archive/BOUWDP
Very charitable of you...and in this case, quite accurate. I did not see the original post on that.

They begin by saying how many things academic philosophers believe that are simply wrong, the first --but by no means the last or only thing -- being their beliefs about what other academic philosophers believe. In other words, they begin with the thesis that academics believe a lot of untrue things.

The survey does have some interesting data in it, but not quite in the way you'd like to use it, I think. For example, they list, under their "free will" question, Compatibilism but not explicitly Determinism. They also list "no free will," but that's redundant, because both Compatibilism and Determinism believe in "no free will."

More importantly, they don't even attempt to explain the reasons that make their purported "academic philosophers" believe one thing or another about Compatibilism. It's quite plausible for us to suppose they have no reasons at all, in fact. Perhaps Compatiblism is merely the default setting for Atheists who don't want to face the demands of Determinism, for example: that would be a totally inadequate "academic" reason to refuse to be a Determinist, of course. But it may well be the primary reason for their alleged beliefs.

That's why we need the details, the actual reasons for their belief. We have no way of knowing if this is not just another foolish thing that "academic philosophers" have believed. There are, after all, so many...both those I listed, and those the authors of your survey added to the list.

I must say, having talked to various Compatiblists, I have seen no even remotely plausible defense for Compatiblism. I have seen some arguments for Determinism that deserve serious thought, but none whatsoever for Compatibilism. Inevitably, all the Compatiblist "reasons," when examined, collapse into pure Determinism -- the only holdback being that Compatibilists are afraid of the side-effects of Determinism. And rightly so, of course. Determinism has some ghastly consequences, such as the impossibility of individual personhood, significant choice, truth-oriented knowledge, or science itself. And we can well understand why a person -- especially one who considers himself or herself an academic, would find it much more comforting to believe that Compatiblism, rather than Determinism was true. Why would they want to sit still for the total destruction of the very discipline they hope to practice? :shock:

The problem remaining that there is no remotely-sufficient rationale for Compatiblism. A small problem? I would think so.
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 4302
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:54 pm
You asked for a link to back up my claim that more than half of all professional philosophers are compatibilists. I gave the link, I hope most of those words you wrote are just acknowledging that I was in fact correct about that. I fear, however, that you're continuing your streak of drastically misunderstanding a conversation you butted yourself into and forcing the conversation to being something it never was.

If I had to wager a guess, I'd guess that you made the moronic leap to thinking I said they were majority compatibilists as an argument that compatibilism is true or that readers here should also be compatibilist. Despite me not saying any words to that effect. How close was I?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 6:01 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:54 pm
You asked for a link to back up my claim that more than half of all professional philosophers are compatibilists. I gave the link, I hope most of those words you wrote are just acknowledging that I was in fact correct about that.
You should read those words. I gave you credit where credit is due. However...
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 4302
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: compatibilism

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 6:03 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 6:01 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:54 pm
You asked for a link to back up my claim that more than half of all professional philosophers are compatibilists. I gave the link, I hope most of those words you wrote are just acknowledging that I was in fact correct about that.
You should read those words. I gave you credit where credit is due. However...
However you made the assumption I described as moronic?
Post Reply