Free will, freedom from what?

[promethean75]

"But let me ask you this, instead: if we, to whom you are arguing, have no free will, no volition, then how do you expect us to change our minds?"

That's Biggs's favorite spade, too. The only way to resolve this dilemma is to speak rather cryptically and say sumthin like 'the system may be determined to change part of its mind, or it may not'. When a freewillist and a determinist come into collision, the determinist becomes a contradicting omnipotent logical force that, through argument, may compel the freewillist to have a change of mind. All the while claiming that it's determined for the freewillist to believe in freewill (hence the determinists contradiction).

[Atla]

"But let me ask you this, instead: if we, to whom you are arguing, have no free will, no volition, then how do you expect us to change our minds?"

That's Biggs's favorite spade, too. The only way to resolve this dilemma is to speak rather cryptically and say sumthin like 'the system may be determined to change part of its mind, or it may not'. When a freewillist and a determinist come into collision, the determinist becomes a contradicting omnipotent logical force that, through argument, may compel the freewillist to have a change of mind. All the while claiming that it's determined for the freewillist to believe in freewill (hence the determinists contradiction).

But there is absolutely nothing contradicting about that..

[Janoah]

determinism

Determinism is understood in different ways, but the predetermination of an infinite number of events is absurd.

[Janoah]

I can't. But I'm not God.

I'm ready to believe it, but you still haven't answered my simple question, do you acknowledge the fact that you have no freedom from the law of gravity?

[henry quirk]

you have no freedom from the law of gravity

Presenting...

3972B366-0481-42FD-A90E-0215644ECD52.gif

...freedom from the law of gravity!

[Harbal]

you have no freedom from the law of gravity

Presenting...3972B366-0481-42FD-A90E-0215644ECD52.gif...freedom from the law of gravity!

Aircraft function according to the laws of aerodynamics in conjunction with the law of gravity. There's no way round it, henry, you can't wish physical laws away.

[henry quirk]

you have no freedom from the law of gravity

Presenting...3972B366-0481-42FD-A90E-0215644ECD52.gif...freedom from the law of gravity!

Aircraft function according to the laws of aerodynamics in conjunction with the law of gravity. There's no way round it, henry, you can't wish physical laws away.

Goalpost moving, H.

This is J's assertion: you have no freedom from the law of gravity

Demonstrably the Lil Buzzard gives anyone with a mind to have it: freedom from the law of gravity.

[Harbal]

Presenting...3972B366-0481-42FD-A90E-0215644ECD52.gif...freedom from the law of gravity!

Aircraft function according to the laws of aerodynamics in conjunction with the law of gravity. There's no way round it, henry, you can't wish physical laws away.

Goalpost moving, H.

This is J's assertion: you have no freedom from the law of gravity

Demonstrably the Lil Buzzard gives anyone with a mind to have it: freedom from the law of gravity.

I'm no physicist, henry, but where there is matter, there is gravity, as I understand it. But I'm just being a busy body, so I'll apologise for the interruption and leave you to it.

[Flannel Jesus]

***simultaneity being relative doesn't rule out determinism.***

The relativity of simultaneity rules out simultaneous infinity.

I don't know what that means, but whatever it means, it's still the case that relativity doesn't rule out determinism

FJ is right: all it does is change the "mechanism" that is supposed to produce the predetermined outcome. It doesn't make the outcome less predetermined. Instead of it being by predictable natural forces, it merely becomes by unpredictable forces or randomness. But it doesn't open up an explanation for human volition or freedom.

You might be confusing relativity with quantum mechanics. Relativity has nothing to do with randomness.

[Flannel Jesus]

determinism

Determinism is understood in different ways, but the predetermination of an infinite number of events is absurd.

As long as you understand that einstein, the literal inventor of relativity, was a determinist and found no conflict there with relativity.

[Janoah]

As long as you understand that einstein,

In general, a physicist does not mean a philosopher.
There are neglected cases when physicists believe that one Jew, whom they call God, walked on water with a group of other Jews, and this does not prevent physicists from receiving Nobel Prizes in Physics.

[Immanuel Can]

...you still haven't answered my simple question

Nor you any of mine.

But your question had no relevance, anyway. Nobody was disputing the existence of natural laws. You'd have to ask it to somebody who was.

The issue is not their existence, but what we can predicate of them, and what we can conclude from their existence. And that part, you've got completely wrong.

[Immanuel Can]

I don't know what that means, but whatever it means, it's still the case that relativity doesn't rule out determinism

FJ is right: all it does is change the "mechanism" that is supposed to produce the predetermined outcome. It doesn't make the outcome less predetermined. Instead of it being by predictable natural forces, it merely becomes by unpredictable forces or randomness. But it doesn't open up an explanation for human volition or freedom.

You might be confusing relativity with quantum mechanics. Relativity has nothing to do with randomness.

No, I meant to treat them as different issues, not as one. But what unifies them in the present discussion is that both are sometimes referred to by people as if they were some sort of ways of explaining the existence of volition. I meant to point out that neither of them is.

[Immanuel Can]

you have no freedom from the law of gravity

Presenting...3972B366-0481-42FD-A90E-0215644ECD52.gif...freedom from the law of gravity!

Aircraft function according to the laws of aerodynamics in conjunction with the law of gravity. There's no way round it, henry, you can't wish physical laws away.

But what have physical laws got to do with free will?

[Harbal]

Presenting...3972B366-0481-42FD-A90E-0215644ECD52.gif...freedom from the law of gravity!

Aircraft function according to the laws of aerodynamics in conjunction with the law of gravity. There's no way round it, henry, you can't wish physical laws away.

But what have physical laws got to do with free will?

I have no idea. I was making a point about gravity, not free will.