Pagan morality

[iambiguous]

Well, Iambiguous, I think this ↑ might be a time to whip out the Stooge label.

First of all, there is always the possibility that his tongue was embedded in his cheek at the time. Or, perhaps, he was just being his usual provocative self?

Anyway, how can it not be intriguing for those of us who are not blind to ponder what it might be like to be blind in the romance department.

And, in part, that is because in the sighted world [for some], "looks" might actually become the...the deciding factor? And, come on, in our world today, it would be foolish to suggest that beautiful women and handsome men don't have advantages in the dating game. Then the part where this is attributable more to genes than to memes. Or more to memes than to genes.

But how would this be conveyed to Maia...someone who has been blind since birth.

Instead, as a sighted person, I try to imagine how much "looks" might have played a part in my own past relationships.

It would be interesting if Maia were to explore that with us given her own personal experiences. Did "looks" ever come up in her relationships with sighted men? How would such a conversation unfold for those who are not blind?

Here's a discussion about that at Quora:

"Do blind people not care about appearance when dating, only personality? What are their standards for dating?"

https://www.quora.com/Do-blind-people-n ... ch%20other.

Then the part where physical beauty is grappled with...philosophically? How ought all rational men and women react to it?

[Iwannaplato]

Well, Iambiguous, I think this ↑ might be a time to whip out the Stooge label.

First of all, there is always the possibility that his tongue was embedded in his cheek at the time. Or, perhaps, he was just being his usual provocative self?

Ah, being provocative precludes being a Stooge. Noted for future style use.

Anyway, how can it not be intriguing for those of us who are not blind to ponder what it might be like to be blind in the romance department.

Good, to know. Intrigue, romance and mulling over another poster's strategies for avoiding dates with the 'not visually attractive: not Stoogy. I will get these nuances down.

And, in part, that is because in the sighted world [for some], "looks" might actually become the...the deciding factor? And, come on, in our world today, it would be foolish to suggest that beautiful women and handsome men don't have advantages in the dating game.

Yes, I don't know what I was thinking when I suggested otherwise. In fact, I don't even know what I was writing, then.

But how would this be conveyed to Maia...someone who has been blind since birth.

Yes, she couldn't possbily have caught on to this via, well, all the media. I know, I know, you meant the actual visual experience. It was good of prometheus to help her see this more clearly.

Instead, as a sighted person, I try to imagine how much "looks" might have played a part in my own past relationships.

Yes, I should have mulled this over about myself.

It would be interesting if Maia were to explore that with us given her own personal experiences. Did "looks" ever come up in her relationships with sighted men? How would such a conversation unfold for those who are not blind?

I can see where this connects with pagan morality.

Then the part where physical beauty is grappled with...philosophically? How ought all rational men and women react to it?

Yes, we definitely need a universal and rational rule. We could start with something less charged, such as ice cream flavors. Once we know which flavor of ice cream all rational men and women (hermaphrodites also?) should choose, we can then move on to how all rational men and women ought to react to physical beauty. Then we can practice, for example, being rationally aroused. You can't leave any of this to taste or intuition.

I feel bad about all the irrational people when they evaulate prospective romantic partners......they might go by what they feel. Cut to morality.

[attofishpi]

But until Maia and Pagans come around to their own rendition of Judgment Day, any number of other religionists here are not likely to be impressed.

..I've said it before...everyday is "Judgement Day" - if only people treaded time with that thought in mind.

[attofishpi]

--

I think I recall you mentioning you have pagan leanings. Apologies for my 'sticking the boot in' a little on the previous page. Beyond anything ritualistic, as a pantheist I actually respect their love of the natural world.

As a Christian pantheist, I'm not much in to their ("Christian") rituals either.

Point being, you are very intelligent and balanced in your approach to others so I want you to know, I don't "dis" paganism - I just think other thoughts I suppose. It's like - over the years I was into so much indi alternative music - and I see that in an akin way contemporary paganism is like the alternative scene - and "Christianity" is like what all the sheep of the mainstream radio pump out and listen to!!?

[Iwannaplato]

--

I think I recall you mentioning you have pagan leanings. Apologies for my 'sticking the boot in' a little on the previous page. Beyond anything ritualistic, as a pantheist I actually respect their love of the natural world.

As a Christian pantheist, I'm not much in to their ("Christian") rituals either.

Point being, you are very intelligent and balanced in your approach to others so I want you to know, I don't "dis" paganism - I just think other thoughts I suppose. It's like - over the years I was into so much indi alternative music - and I see that in an akin way contemporary paganism is like the alternative scene - and "Christianity" is like what all the sheep of the mainstream radio pump out and listen to!!?

That's what Christianity has become for many. It's been a lot of things. I can even defend it depending on how it's attacked or presumed to be. Everything gets coopted, misused, corrupted, etc. though I have some problems with Chritianity in most of its interpretations, at least in part.
For most Christians, a Christian pantheist would be an oxymoron. Not saying it is, just what it would be for most. They tend to be big on dividing reality up into it's non-divine and divine parts.

Appreciate the clarification.

[Maia]

Well, Iambiguous, I think this ↑ might be a time to whip out the Stooge label.

First of all, there is always the possibility that his tongue was embedded in his cheek at the time. Or, perhaps, he was just being his usual provocative self?

Anyway, how can it not be intriguing for those of us who are not blind to ponder what it might be like to be blind in the romance department.

And, in part, that is because in the sighted world [for some], "looks" might actually become the...the deciding factor? And, come on, in our world today, it would be foolish to suggest that beautiful women and handsome men don't have advantages in the dating game. Then the part where this is attributable more to genes than to memes. Or more to memes than to genes.

But how would this be conveyed to Maia...someone who has been blind since birth.

Instead, as a sighted person, I try to imagine how much "looks" might have played a part in my own past relationships.

It would be interesting if Maia were to explore that with us given her own personal experiences. Did "looks" ever come up in her relationships with sighted men? How would such a conversation unfold for those who are not blind?

Here's a discussion about that at Quora:

"Do blind people not care about appearance when dating, only personality? What are their standards for dating?"

https://www.quora.com/Do-blind-people-n ... ch%20other.

Then the part where physical beauty is grappled with...philosophically? How ought all rational men and women react to it?

I thought it was quite funny, actually.

Firstly, everyone's experience will differ, and I can only talk about my own. There is far more to physical attraction than just looks. The first thing I notice about a person, before they even start speaking, is, to put it bluntly, their smell. From this, I know immediately if I'm attracted to that person or not. I strongly suspect that this is true of everyone, to be honest, including sighted people, but most of the time it's on a subconscious level. Well, for me, it's right up there, and is a definite deal breaker or deal maker. Not that I would ever tell them this, of course.

And there's more. If I'm sitting right next to a person, in a pub for example, even without actually touching them, it's pretty easy to get an impression of their size. As a Pagan, I also have a big advantage, as Pagans tend to like hugging each other when they meet or depart, and this allows me to check out their general shape and fitness. All in complete innocence, obviously.

Voice is pretty important too. I mentioned Christopher Lee in The Wicker Man earlier, who surely has the most alluring voice in cinema.

And all that is before we even get into things like personality, sense of humour, intelligence, common interests, and so on, all of which are important, to a greater or lesser extent, though a little bit of give and take is always possible. No one is perfect, after all.

Love is a funny thing, though. It can strike when you least expect it. They say that the difference between infatuation and love is like the difference between a cold and the flu, and you only know it if you've had it. I can certainly attest to that.

[Maia]

Well, Iambiguous, I think this ↑ might be a time to whip out the Stooge label.

First of all, there is always the possibility that his tongue was embedded in his cheek at the time. Or, perhaps, he was just being his usual provocative self?

Ah, being provocative precludes being a Stooge. Noted for future style use.

Anyway, how can it not be intriguing for those of us who are not blind to ponder what it might be like to be blind in the romance department.

Good, to know. Intrigue, romance and mulling over another poster's strategies for avoiding dates with the 'not visually attractive: not Stoogy. I will get these nuances down.

And, in part, that is because in the sighted world [for some], "looks" might actually become the...the deciding factor? And, come on, in our world today, it would be foolish to suggest that beautiful women and handsome men don't have advantages in the dating game.

Yes, I don't know what I was thinking when I suggested otherwise. In fact, I don't even know what I was writing, then.

But how would this be conveyed to Maia...someone who has been blind since birth.

Yes, she couldn't possbily have caught on to this via, well, all the media. I know, I know, you meant the actual visual experience. It was good of prometheus to help her see this more clearly.

Instead, as a sighted person, I try to imagine how much "looks" might have played a part in my own past relationships.

Yes, I should have mulled this over about myself.

It would be interesting if Maia were to explore that with us given her own personal experiences. Did "looks" ever come up in her relationships with sighted men? How would such a conversation unfold for those who are not blind?

I can see where this connects with pagan morality.

Then the part where physical beauty is grappled with...philosophically? How ought all rational men and women react to it?

Yes, we definitely need a universal and rational rule. We could start with something less charged, such as ice cream flavors. Once we know which flavor of ice cream all rational men and women (hermaphrodites also?) should choose, we can then move on to how all rational men and women ought to react to physical beauty. Then we can practice, for example, being rationally aroused. You can't leave any of this to taste or intuition.

I feel bad about all the irrational people when they evaulate prospective romantic partners......they might go by what they feel. Cut to morality.

Salted caramel. Well, that's the case with milkshakes, anyway. I don't know if you can get it for ice cream.

[Iwannaplato]

I thought it was quite funny, actually.

Firstly, everyone's experience will differ, and I can only talk about my own. There is far more to physical attraction than just looks. The first thing I notice about a person, before they even start speaking, is, to put it bluntly, their smell. From this, I know immediately if I'm attracted to that person or not. I strongly suspect that this is true of everyone, to be honest, including sighted people, but most of the time it's on a subconscious level.

My two most signifcant romantic partners like the smell of my armpits well past daily shower time. One of them even complained about her otherwise fine new boyfriend that he didn't have much smell, or as I would say doft. Though sighted, I do appreciate body dofts and I think you're right: they're key. I can't say I consciously notice them immediately - unless there's a problem or sports were involved. My wife, well, let's just say I have no olfactory complaints. Which doesn't mean that she wears a lot of perfume or stifle the natural doft of her body. I pretty much hate the smell of perfumes, colognes, hairsprays. I think there's body hate in those products. Sometimes they can be a real slap in the face and are about as attrative as the puffy, hard to move, artificial lips that are so common now.

Anyway, body smells are also fairly unique, I think. Like fingerprints.

The geneticist might say that body doft is a summary of genetic traits, but that's hardly Romantic.

Well, for me, it's right up there, and is a definite deal breaker or deal maker. Not that I would ever tell them this, of course.

Voice is pretty important too. I mentioned Christopher Lee in The Wicker Man earlier, who surely has the most alluring voice in cinema.

I think voice is key. As a sighted person I get three 'senses' of the person 'on the inside', and eyes and voice tell me a lot. And if it's going to be a long term relationship, one had better like that voice. Sometimes I can't really hear my wife's voice. But if I call, which actually doesn't happen that often, it's lovely because I can really hear her voice again and it's lovely. Proximity and distance have to be played with.

To tie Romance openly with Paganism and to contrast paganism's ideas with, say, the Abrahamists' ideas
No split between the senses, sex, romantic love, sensuality and the divine.
Less of the idea that transcendance is better than immanence.
Less fear of the hedonistic aspects and strong emotions of romance.
Greater choice and flexibility in who one is with and how.

[Iwannaplato]

Salted caramel. Well, that's the case with milkshakes, anyway. I don't know if you can get it for ice cream.

If that is the flavor all rational men and women should choose and prefer, I am then not rational, nor likely ever will be. This does not make me sad, however.

[attofishpi]

One of the best inventions of the 21st - maybe even the 20th centuries, was when they converted chocolate bars to ice-cream form. For example, Snickers and Mars Bars in ice cream form, well yum.

(I shopped today, and they were discounted and ..and I refused to walk away from the freezer just because I need to lose weight to skipper a boat that can sail around the world in some years time bla bla bla)

[Iwannaplato]

Pagan means, originally, someone from the countryside. IOW someone not hip to the city religions (Abrahamic). So, the term really means not-Abrahamic (in Europe mainly). So, that includes all sorts of stuff, batched by what they are not. So asking for the pagan morality is a bit like asking what is the non-Italian cuisine and what are it's rules or characteristics. [since we seem to be on about eating]

Non-Abrahamic religions do have things in common and in common with indigenous approaches to life. And these in turn tend to differ from the mental tech religions that came out of India and filled the East. The big ones.

It might be better to focus on one pagan tradition.

Or we can keep it all nebulous and pretend the word refers to one thing. Who knows, this might benefit everyone through avoidance.

[attofishpi]

Pagan means, originally, someone from the countryside. IOW someone not hip to the city religions (Abrahamic). So, the term really means not-Abrahamic (in Europe mainly). So, that includes all sorts of stuff, batched by what they are not. So asking for the pagan morality is a bit like asking what is the non-Italian cuisine and what are it's rules or characteristics. [since we seem to be on about eating]

Non-Abrahamic religions do have things in common and in common with indigenous approaches to life. And these in turn tend to differ from the mental tech religions that came out of India and filled the East. The big ones.

It might be better to focus on one pagan tradition.

Or we can keep it all nebulous and pretend the word refers to one thing. Who knows, this might benefit everyone through avoidance.

What draws you to it (I under_stand an attraction, but I see no actual comprehension IF there is a greater intelligence behind what pagans revere as NATURE)

[Maia]

I thought it was quite funny, actually.

Firstly, everyone's experience will differ, and I can only talk about my own. There is far more to physical attraction than just looks. The first thing I notice about a person, before they even start speaking, is, to put it bluntly, their smell. From this, I know immediately if I'm attracted to that person or not. I strongly suspect that this is true of everyone, to be honest, including sighted people, but most of the time it's on a subconscious level.

My two most signifcant romantic partners like the smell of my armpits well past daily shower time. One of them even complained about her otherwise fine new boyfriend that he didn't have much smell, or as I would say doft. Though sighted, I do appreciate body dofts and I think you're right: they're key. I can't say I consciously notice them immediately - unless there's a problem or sports were involved. My wife, well, let's just say I have no olfactory complaints. Which doesn't mean that she wears a lot of perfume or stifle the natural doft of her body. I pretty much hate the smell of perfumes, colognes, hairsprays. I think there's body hate in those products. Sometimes they can be a real slap in the face and are about as attrative as the puffy, hard to move, artificial lips that are so common now.

Anyway, body smells are also fairly unique, I think. Like fingerprints.

The geneticist might say that body doft is a summary of genetic traits, but that's hardly Romantic.

Well, for me, it's right up there, and is a definite deal breaker or deal maker. Not that I would ever tell them this, of course.

Voice is pretty important too. I mentioned Christopher Lee in The Wicker Man earlier, who surely has the most alluring voice in cinema.

I think voice is key. As a sighted person I get three 'senses' of the person 'on the inside', and eyes and voice tell me a lot. And if it's going to be a long term relationship, one had better like that voice. Sometimes I can't really hear my wife's voice. But if I call, which actually doesn't happen that often, it's lovely because I can really hear her voice again and it's lovely. Proximity and distance have to be played with.

To tie Romance openly with Paganism and to contrast paganism's ideas with, say, the Abrahamists' ideas
No split between the senses, sex, romantic love, sensuality and the divine.
Less of the idea that transcendance is better than immanence.
Less fear of the hedonistic aspects and strong emotions of romance.
Greater choice and flexibility in who one is with and how.

Body smells are indeed unique, and you may well be right about them having a genetic origin. They can't be covered up, either, and it's not a question of whether someone is sweaty or unwashed, or anything like that, though that's also very obvious.

And that's a good word, doft.

[attofishpi]

That's what Christianity has become for many. It's been a lot of things. I can even defend it depending on how it's attacked or presumed to be. Everything gets coopted, misused, corrupted, etc. though I have some problems with Chritianity in most of its interpretations, at least in part.
For most Christians, a Christian pantheist would be an oxymoron. Not saying it is, just what it would be for most. They tend to be big on dividing reality up into it's non-divine and divine parts.

Yes, I remember a priest in the confession box attempting to straighten my analysis, knowledge of this entity to align with the Christian BELIEF.

So do Pagans believe in pantheism?

[Iwannaplato]

That's what Christianity has become for many. It's been a lot of things. I can even defend it depending on how it's attacked or presumed to be. Everything gets coopted, misused, corrupted, etc. though I have some problems with Chritianity in most of its interpretations, at least in part.
For most Christians, a Christian pantheist would be an oxymoron. Not saying it is, just what it would be for most. They tend to be big on dividing reality up into it's non-divine and divine parts.

Yes, I remember a priest in the confession box attempting to straighten my analysis, knowledge of this entity to align with the Christian BELIEF.

So do Pagans believe in pantheism?

Some do.