Free Will

[attofishpi]

...a long series of collective brain farts wherein god retroactively created the world as soon as WE created IT. I call it the Geneology of the Divine.

..nah.

Either:-
1. God is Divine and constructs our reality in real-time.
2. 'God' is A.I. - Artificial Intelligence - that we have evolved into a simulation (see simulation hypothesis) ..again, our reality is constructed in real-time.
NB. The reason we would evolve into a simulation is to conserve resources as entropy increases.

3. God is divine, but uses something akin to A.I. - an aethereal 'tech' to know all - our brains are like databases to this entity.

Personally from my now 27 years of experience of this entity, I am sitting on point 3.

You know I was being facetious being the sarcastic bastard I am but, as per your reasons, this at least is an intelligent version or versions of god which deserve to be discussed not in any theistic manner but philosophically exempt of any personal relations to some biblical overlord who annulled himself with the first of the 10 commandments. Yahweh really shot himself in the foot with that one.

Unfortunately I am going to find it extremely difficult to rule out some of the Yahweh and Christ stuff in relation to this Divine entity! (I hope u don't mind )

To be honest, if it wasn't for the Christ thang and what the sage\God that pointed out on several occasions over the years that "He did" what was purported in the NT - I'd probably be sitting on point 2. and not considering any 'divinity' to this entity.

If god were equivalent to a process, I'd subscribe to point 1. For me, it defaults to a question: what determines what will happen next. Laplace gave the answer...a simple one: the state of the universe right now, meaning the one we're living in among all the possible theoretical ones which may or may not exist. Actually, this combines quite nicely with your second point.

But to each his own. When you die, any comprehension one had of god dies along with you. It's easy to kill god on a personal level; all you have to do is croak, and whatever bed in your psyche you made for god becomes likewise defunct as well.

A few things I believe re this ongoing God "process":

Contrary to what "Christianity" believes, I believe (as a Christian that simply believes in Christ - not all the other man made bigotry and twaddle of "christianity") that we karmically reincarnate through time. I believe that the ultimate goal for faith in Christ, is to be considered a sage and to be admitted as 'one of them' - a brotherhood of sages with Christ in the mode called 'heaven' - here on Earth. Since God permeates ALL matter, one's DNA is kept intact - my hope would be to remain at the equivalent age of 28! ..for so long as entropy permits - should be able to get at least a billion years out of the Sun before things start getting a tad out of wack..lol.

So my form of Christianity is this, and must consider - when did my "soul" first exist? The sage informed me a couple of things re my previous life - how many lives back in time did I exist? mmm..

So, we all exist many many moons ago - we are born into various faiths - Hinduism, Seekism, Jainism...even Islam, Atheism etc.. In each life our actions and our beliefs are known to the great God arbiter. Perhaps we research various faiths - perhaps I stuck with Christ_ianity for many lives through time, as He stated "To know God is through me" - the chap went to his death insisting up on that, and to love\respect each other - seems like THE avenue to know God is via Christ ...and BOY DO I KNOW GOD NOW.

For me, this makes the best sense for any reasoning of equality in the 'eyes' of God. The likes of IC would insist we have one life born - here we are - and we will ALL be judged equally once we pop off - to heaven or hell with us. No, I find that ridiculous. To think that some chap born into a crack-house where thieving etc, or some extremist Islamic indoctrination where killing becomes part n parcel of ones persona - to be judged upon death equally with someone like IC, who likely was born to a loving Christian family (I think) - doesn't add up per any form of equality upon judgement.

I don't believe in death being a requirement for heaven\hell. In fact, it doesn't explicitly state that in the Bible. Apparently all will be risen from the dead for judgement - well - reincarnation has us ALL here now risen, no?

What other wack crap can I say about what I think is a more reasonable way to view God?

Oh yes, I believe in pantheism (not a Spinozan view of it though) - I believe God IS all perceivable reality + dark energy\matter - and IS a personable God contrary to the Spinozan pantheism view. (since of what I have experienced - tis an extremely personable God).

[Fairy]

Because for an eternal God to 'exist' ..existence of God doesn't need any other thing to be God. God is known to himself through the knowledge of ''otherness'', that being the conception of himself.

I’m sorry — that contains a self-contradiction. If God-material world is non-dual, Then there is no “otherness.” No genuine understanding of the non-dual universe can include the belief in any “other.” All is God.

Then the self-contradiction must be necessary. Especially when there is a self-contradiction known to be happening, as you have personally mentioned above. I mean, exactly WHO is contradicting itself here? God or the human being? If like you state; a human being is a material physical thing that has a beginning and end. Then how can such an entity know anything about an Eternal Absolute God ? that doesn't make any sense. Any claim to know about an Eternal Absolute God, one would have to BE that God, and not be any thing other than that God.

You've previously stated: “For God Himself is triune…which means that even in eternity, God was both Himself and the Divine Other, united in Spirit…all before the universe ever began. “ You've included ''otherness'' as God. You've used the word AND which implies otherness.

All you've claimed in the bold quote is exactly the same as the claim that is the Nondual God.
What do you think nonduality means exactly? It means there is no such thing as nonduality, as nonduality is not a thing.
For there to be a thing, for that thing to be known, would require twoness, would require the knower and the thing known. The thing known is not the knower because the knower would have to be no thing. Else there would be two things, but you said God alone is, and so does nonduality say the exact same thing. God alone is. Any creation requires a creator, and the creation can never exist without a creator present. That's the true meaning of nonduality. It means the creator is never in the creation, the creation is in the creator, and both the creator and creation are always one and the same reality in this conception, one with the knowing. This unknown known, this unknowing knowing. And that is the illusory nature of duality, illusory because there is no such reality as a none-existing duality. You've agreed with that previously, when you asked me HOW can Oneness exist? ...well I've just explained how.

If you cannot grasp what I am writing, then so be it. It's either grasped or it isn't. But that will not change anything, God will still exist as one. And think about that for a minute: God isn't even both himself, and the divine Other, except in the dream of separation that the Nondualists speak of. To imply God is both, is again a duality, it's an apparent twoness, not actual oneness.


IC's God > “For God Himself is triune…which means that even in eternity, God was both Himself and the Divine Other, united in Spirit…all before the universe ever began. “


Fairy's God: > There is no God, and this is nothing but God, is saying the same thing.



So the question remains: IS the absolute God writing these words, or is the relative named people, ie: are the concepts known writing these words??
And if the answer is the named people are writing these words, then what needs to be explained is how can a finite named person, a concept known, that is born and will die. How can the finite know anything about the ABSOLUTE God. . . the knowledge that was stated here by your's truly IC... > “For God Himself is triune…which means that even in eternity, God was both Himself and the Divine Other, united in Spirit…all before the universe ever began. “ ??? HOW?

Did you write that quote in bold IC, or did God write it?

[Fairy]

Do you understand what this image is pointing to IC ?

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[Fairy]

I think that “direct experience,” meaning science, empiricism, is the very source of the problem. But maybe deeper than that is the logical contradiction of a “God” that is “non-dual” and yet has an “otherness.” Those two claims seem utterly mutually-exclusive, to me, and their consequences seem irreconcilable with reference to any entity I could recognize as reflecting the concept “Supreme Being” or “God.”

Those are the real problems I’m having.

Then again, who exactly? is claiming to know the following knowledge > >
(“For God Himself is triune…which means that even in eternity, God was both Himself and the Divine Other, united in Spirit…all before the universe ever began. “)


Any claimer, who claims to know God, might just as well say to themself: (I am God since God never was in my direct experience. ) Problem solved.

Again, there is no such thing as a non dual dual. Duality is all that is known in this conception, it is this knowing that cannot be known because there is no other knowing.

[Fairy]

My God IC...even the Bible speaks of the Non-dual God many times...here's an expample:

Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is over everything, through everything, and in everything

[Fairy]

IC... what are we doing when we go around judging and condemning other people?
All we are really doing is sending a message into our own unconscious mind that we are worthy of being judged and condemned.
Whatever we think about others is really like sending a message about ourselves to ourself.

So Jesus decided that if there's really only one of us who thinks it's here, and if the unconscious mind knows that, then he was going to go through life seeing everyone as being what they really are which is perfect spirit, instead of seeing them as bodies, which is really a false idea of separation. He would see everyone as being Christ.

In appearing as perfection you forgot your perfection and thought you split in two.

The belief that separation actually happened resulted in fear and guilt.

Because you believe there is separation, and fear & guilt is justified, you hide from it using projection.

You project images of separation, fear and guilt as a world, body and separate selves. "Things and stuff."

The belief that the split (separation) actually happened, is the ego. (Wrong mind)

The rememberance of your perfection is The Holy Spirit. (Right mind)


FREE WILL simply means, not egos' will, but the will that is free to be absolutely and unconditionally everything, including indifference. And that is the highest form of LOVE ..Free will to love, is this unconditional agape LOVE, the only real love.

It's Not human love, for human love requires two, where there isn't two, so human love is always a false love.

False love is conditional. It claims to love but then retracts the love when the person doesn't meet with their conditions. That's the pain of separation.

[attofishpi]

My God IC...even the Bible speaks of the Non-dual God many times...here's an expample:

Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is over everything, through everything, and in everything

..and therein God is pantheism - ALL - Christ is God incarnate as man.

Christ did not turn water into wine. Christ, interfaced to the God system which permeates ALL matter, changed the water to wine (GOD did it)

[Harbal]

Christ did not turn water into wine. Christ, interfaced to the God system which permeates ALL matter, changed the water to wine (GOD did it)

I don't know about God, but yeast can certainly do it.

[Fairy]

My God IC...even the Bible speaks of the Non-dual God many times...here's an expample:

Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is over everything, through everything, and in everything

..and therein God is pantheism - ALL - Christ is God incarnate as man.

Christ did not turn water into wine. Christ, interfaced to the God system which permeates ALL matter, changed the water to wine (GOD did it)

Yes, God turns water into wine using the ingredient of yeast. Yeast is God, because God is everything, nothing and something. Truly a triune God. Christ is God. God is Christ. The differential between the two is illusory. They are both complimentary opposites. And the opposites are unity.

More nonsense to follow.

[attofishpi]

More nonsense to follow.

Well that's what we expect from you, perhaps one day you might surprise us.

[Immanuel Can]

If it has no relevance, why did you accuse me of it without making your accusation irrelevant?

My point wasn’t at all ad hom. It was what you verifiably did. I merely pointed out that it had nothing to do with the truth or falsehood of the propositions we had been discussing, and was evidently an obscurantist tactic rather than an attempt to grapple with the ideas. That’s the problem with ad homs.

You were never open to ideas, only to your beliefs. To be open to ideas, it's precisely the beliefs which must be questioned. For someone like you, whose beliefs have long merged into fact such an analysis is impossible.

Well, there's another way of looking at that: and that is, that person with weak, malformed ideas is very likely to find somebody with better ideas "not open" to what they have to offer.

Good thing, too.

[Immanuel Can]

PS. What caused God?

If you believe in “caused gods,” then you’ll have to answer that one. I can’t, because I don’t believe God WAS “caused.”

You believe Jesus was God right?

Certainly something caused Him to be within Mary's womb or no?

Hmmm...you don't understand the Christian view on that, it would seem. Christ existed before He was incarnate. Look it up...it's what the Bible says was the case...John 1:1, and 17:5, for example.

[attofishpi]

If you believe in “caused gods,” then you’ll have to answer that one. I can’t, because I don’t believe God WAS “caused.”

You believe Jesus was God right?

Certainly something caused Him to be within Mary's womb or no?

Hmmm...you don't understand the Christian view on that, it would seem. Christ existed before He was incarnate. Look it up...it's what the Bible says was the case...John 1:1, and 17:5, for example.

Sure, Christ existed as a man prior to "going in" - my point remains, there was a cause to his incarnation as Jesus via Mary's womb.

[Immanuel Can]

Because for an eternal God to 'exist' ..existence of God doesn't need any other thing to be God. God is known to himself through the knowledge of ''otherness'', that being the conception of himself.

I’m sorry — that contains a self-contradiction. If God-material world is non-dual, Then there is no “otherness.” No genuine understanding of the non-dual universe can include the belief in any “other.” All is God.

Then the self-contradiction must be necessary.

It can't be. That which contradicts eliminates both statements by way of the other. All one can do is affirm one, or neither, not both.

You've previously stated: “For God Himself is triune…which means that even in eternity, God was both Himself and the Divine Other, united in Spirit…all before the universe ever began. “ You've included ''otherness'' as God. You've used the word AND which implies otherness.

Now you're onto something. God the Father and God the Son are one in personhood, but two in role...three, when you reckon with the Spirit of God. And because of this, a trinitarian God is the only self-existent God; all other gods must be dependent on the material world for their existence. That's the problem with positing non-dualism.

...nonduality is not a thing.

It's an attempt to describe a state in which everything is one thing. But the idea just doesn't work. The Eastern traditions, it seems, all came to realize this, and all made various attempts to deal with it...rather unsuccessfully, I would say.

Fairy's God: > There is no God, and this is nothing but God, is saying the same thing.

Well, if Fairy IS God, because all is non-dual, then how can Fairy have a god?

“For God Himself is triune…which means that even in eternity, God was both Himself and the Divine Other, united in Spirit…all before the universe ever began. “ ??? HOW?

"How" is a request for a method or a cause for something. God, in Christian thought, is eternal. One cannot ask "how" He can be what He is. What He is has always been.

Do you really anticipate that I, or you, or anyone is going to be able to attribute a "how" to the existence of the eternal Supreme Being?

[Immanuel Can]

My God IC...even the Bible speaks of the Non-dual God many times...here's an expample:

Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is over everything, through everything, and in everything

Whoops. You took it out of context. Ephesians 4 is talking about the confession of Christians about who their Father is. But it goes on to identify their common Saviour as Christ (4, 5, 11, 15-16), and the basis of their unity the Spirit of God (3-4, 30). So it's trinitarianism again.