Doubts are real therefore determinism is false

[phyllo]

Correct, but in the case when we have doubt there are at least two options to choose from. Two options are not allowed in a deterministic world.

There are options in a deterministic world.

Determinism is about how one chooses between the options ... one chooses based on the current state and one cannot avoid choosing based on the current state. In contrast, when one chooses with free-will, one can bypass or ignore the current state partially or entirely.

The information on the sign tells you that one path leads to the exit and another one to the trap but it does not tell you which path, the left or right one, leads to the trap or exit.

Then I misread the text.

And I still don't understand the relevance.

What point are you trying to make?

[bahman]

Correct, but in the case when we have doubt there are at least two options to choose from. Two options are not allowed in a deterministic world.

There are options in a deterministic world.

Determinism is about how one chooses between the options ... one chooses based on the current state and one cannot avoid choosing based on the current state. In contrast, when one chooses with free-will, one can bypass or ignore the current state partially or entirely.

Within a deterministic worldview, one state of affairs uniquely determines another state of affairs. You cannot have options.

The information on the sign tells you that one path leads to the exit and another one to the trap but it does not tell you which path, the left or right one, leads to the trap or exit.

Then I misread the text.

And I still don't understand the relevance.

What point are you trying to make?

Just tell me which option do you pick.

[phyllo]

Within a deterministic worldview, one state of affairs uniquely determines another state of affairs. You cannot have options.

Then in a deterministic world, there could be no maze, since a maze offers the options of going left, right, back or staying still.

There could be no open fields, since that offers the options of motion in 360 degrees.

There couldn't even be a person trapped in a tube since even that offers the options of moving forward at various speeds or staying still.

Guess that means that since there are open fields, then determinism is false.

[bahman]

Within a deterministic worldview, one state of affairs uniquely determines another state of affairs. You cannot have options.

Then in a deterministic world, there could be no maze, since a maze offers the options of going left, right, back or staying still.

There could be no open fields, since that offers the options of motion in 360 degrees.

There couldn't even be a person trapped in a tube since even that offers the options of moving forward at various speeds or staying still.

Guess that means that since there are open fields, then determinism is false.

That is the definition of determinism like it or not! Options as you noticed are real. Therefore, determinism is false.

[phyllo]

I'm going to wait to see what IWP posts.

Maybe he can provide a clue as to what you are posting.

[bahman]

I'm going to wait to see what IWP posts.

Maybe he can provide a clue as to what you are posting.

OK, let's wait for him.

[Walker]

Within a deterministic worldview, one state of affairs uniquely determines another state of affairs. You cannot have options.

Then in a deterministic world, there could be no maze, since a maze offers the options of going left, right, back or staying still.

There could be no open fields, since that offers the options of motion in 360 degrees.

There couldn't even be a person trapped in a tube since even that offers the options of moving forward at various speeds or staying still.

Guess that means that since there are open fields, then determinism is false.

Does determinism require that a person know the determination? No. As with the mouse in a maze, following the path does not require knowing the path that was predetermined by a higher power. Human limitations define the walls of the maze.

[bahman]

Within a deterministic worldview, one state of affairs uniquely determines another state of affairs. You cannot have options.

Then in a deterministic world, there could be no maze, since a maze offers the options of going left, right, back or staying still.

There could be no open fields, since that offers the options of motion in 360 degrees.

There couldn't even be a person trapped in a tube since even that offers the options of moving forward at various speeds or staying still.

Guess that means that since there are open fields, then determinism is false.

Does determinism require that a person know the determination? No. As with the mouse in a maze, following the path does not require knowing the path that was predetermined by a higher power. Human limitations define the walls of the maze.

Correct. Once you accept the existence of options due to human limitations then you realize that human is not a deterministic agent.

[Walker]

Correct. Once you accept the existence of options due to human limitations then you realize that human is not a deterministic agent.

I don't follow your reasoning.

Actions are based on sensory data. Limited sensory data determines human actions. For example, the ability to sense danger or not sense danger determines if one will or will not experience the effects of danger, and act accordingly.

A human's inability to sense the stalking tiger, due to human sensory limitations, makes the human an agent in the determination of whether or not she will be tiger food. She can't know the determination in advance, but whatever happens will be inevitable due to the conditions, and the human is one of the elements that contributes to the inevitable determination, which may not be tiger food.

[bahman]

Correct. Once you accept the existence of options due to human limitations then you realize that human is not a deterministic agent.

I don't follow your reasoning.

Actions are based on sensory data. Limited sensory data determines human actions. For example, the ability to sense danger or not sense danger determines if one will or will not experience the effects of danger, and act accordingly.

A human's inability to sense the stalking tiger, due to human sensory limitations, makes the human an agent in the determination of whether or not she will be tiger food. She can't know the determination in advance, but whatever happens will be inevitable due to the conditions, and the human is one of the elements that contributes to the inevitable determination, which may not be tiger food.

We are not talking about that human's limitation which leads us to become tiger food.

[Iwannaplato]

Correct. Once you accept the existence of options due to human limitations then you realize that human is not a deterministic agent.

Perceived possibilities, seeming due to the limited knowledge of the humans. Determined outcome.
What you are calling options and things that humans may consider choosing between. And when they choose this will be utterly determined by their desires, understanding, etc. All causal. We may see one of these pauses as the various calculations (inevitable ones) and parts of the person (who are not monads) work out that which they will work out in the fixed causal chain, however complicated.

You're putting magical powers into 'options'.

[bahman]

Correct. Once you accept the existence of options due to human limitations then you realize that human is not a deterministic agent.

Perceived possibilities, seeming due to the limited knowledge of the humans. Determined outcome.
What you are calling options and things that humans may consider choosing between. And when they choose this will be utterly determined by their desires, understanding, etc.

There are situations in which feelings, understanding, and the like are not part of the game. Like when you are in a maze.

All causal. We may see one of these pauses as the various calculations (inevitable ones) and parts of the person (who are not monads) work out that which they will work out in the fixed causal chain, however complicated.

You're putting magical powers into 'options'.

Options are real. They are not magical.

[puto]

Contingent as the intellect perfect is for what is really profitable (Spinoza.) An existence contained apart from the definition, is what is really profitable (Spinoza.) Contingent is an existence contained apart from the definition (Spinoza.)

[puto]

Believing, in Libertarian Free Will, "The ability to do otherwise." You have Liberty: Absence of coercion from external forces. Since, the ought, "... Equaled only by the fifth and fourth centuries BCE ..." (Boss 314.)
Kant, Locke, and Jefferson's, "... Belief in the fundamental rational nature of humans and the potential of reason to solve all our problems" (Boss 314.)