compatibilism

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phyllo
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Re: compatibilism

Post by phyllo »

We can be certain animals feel. How can we know it matters to them?
You're saying that animals feel but you question if it matters to them?

So if an animal feels pain, it might not care that it feels pain? Is that what you are suggesting?

And people only care when they feel pain because they are free-wills?

Does that really make any sense?
You "free-wills" claim that these exceptions occur for you. Yet when I ask about them, nobody seems to be able to identify any.
I have.

Up-thread I said you.

You're the exception (well, mebbe not you cuz you insist you're not a free will).

Anyway, the exception to that connection to what is and what came before which cannot be broken is the free will himself as he stops, even if only for a moment, to *consider, to *deliberate, to *conclude, to *choose. Choice then, in response to the snipped out bit about computers and determinists, is not about an automated selection by a machine lacking even the rudiments of awareness, nor is it about the necessary reaction of a meat machine, poor fiction-plagued thing he is. Choice is reserved for free wills.
I realize that you have these beliefs and opinions.

But you don't provide reasoning to support what are basically just a lot of assertions.

If a cheetah picks a gazelle out of a herd and attacks it and you pick a gazelle out of a herd and shoot at it ... why should we think that you are making a choice and the cheetah isn't?

It seems to be the same process taking place.
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henry quirk
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Re: compatibilism

Post by henry quirk »

phyllo wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2024 10:46 pm
Does that really make any sense?
I read a piece recently about insects feeling pain. Let's say they do. Is it sensible to say the mosquito that got slapped with a glancing blow cares about it? It may experience pain (negative stimulus from damage) but it matters to the mosquito?
people only care when they feel pain because they are free-wills?
If a free will is synonymous with a person (I think it is), yes.
It seems to be the same process taking place.
Not to me. The cat is hungry. It hunts. That's it, that's all. It doesn't choose to hunt. It doesn't say gee, I'm hungry. It's hungry. It hunts.

Me, I choose to go out. Mebbe for food, mebbe for the sport, mebbe to rid the area of a predator preying on my livestock. I select my weapon. I plan a strategy. It's nuthin' but choices up and down the line for me.
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iambiguous
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Re: compatibilism

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:25 am
iambiguous wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2024 1:23 amI am waiting for a Libertarian...to...connect the dots between (his)...arguments about human autonomy...and the exact manner in which the brain scientists are able to confirm chemically and neurologically how that actually does unfold.
And I'm still waiting for a necessitarian/nihilist to connect the dots between his argument about the lack of human autonomy and the exact manner in which brain scientists are able to confirm this lack chemically and neurologically.
Bottom line [mine]:

As long as henry is able to convince himself that the Deist God does in fact exist and only split the scene here on Earth after implanting "the dictates of Reason and Nature" into his very Soul, then all he need do is to insist in turn that, given these Divine instructions, of course he and only he is qualified to the define the meaning of Life, Liberty and Property. And even though henry's own "rooted existentially in dasein moral and political prejudices" are pretty much in sync with Immanual Can, he's still going to burn in Hell.
henry quirk wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:25 amLike age, in another thread, you want proof. I never promised you, offered you, or boasted about having, proof. I offered evidence. You rejected it.
Define evidence? Define proof?

But, okay, what specifically did I reject then?

Then [again] the part he "snipped" out:
I argue here that I myself am unable to provide either substantive or substantial proof of what I believe "in my head" about human autonomy.

The human brain itself may well be unable to grasp it.

Instead, it's you and your fiercely fanatical ilk who treat those of my fractured and fragmented ilk [in the is/ought world] as though we embraced another one of your own "my way or the highway" "or else" scriptures.

Only unlike those who accept democracy and the rule of law as the starting point in dealing with conflicting goods, those like you need to belong to yet another tribe.

The Ayn Rand/Satyr Syndrome where everyone embraces the rugged individual...but only if they all think exactly as their heroes do about, well, practically everything.
How on Earth are you any different?

And this part:
First of all, yet again I will note that what I do believe here and now about determinism and nihilism is no less rooted existentially in dasein. And therefore subject to change at any time given new experiences and new relationships and access to new information and knowledge

I don't bring a God, the God into the exchange. I don't posit one or another political/ideological manifesto. I don't embrace moral obligations up in the deontological clouds.

I flat out acknowledge that my own more or less intelligent assessment here may well be far, far removed from the whole truth. In fact, it almost certainly is.
Yet he still needs to convince himself that I am really just another objectivist myself.
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Iwannaplato »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2024 10:06 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Aug 26, 2024 9:45 pmWell, whatever it is that motivates them, it's a cause.
Yes. Where we differ is: I say that cause is the free will himself.
So, an anonymous, traitless, free will, with no particular motivations and desires who perversely may decide not to go along with the desires of the person or the person's sense of what is best.
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phyllo
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Re: compatibilism

Post by phyllo »

I read a piece recently about insects feeling pain. Let's say they do. Is it sensible to say the mosquito that got slapped with a glancing blow cares about it? It may experience pain (negative stimulus from damage) but it matters to the mosquito?
Since pain signals a problem, something to be avoided, it would have no function or purpose if the subject feeling the pain was indifferent to it.
people only care when they feel pain because they are free-wills?
If a free will is synonymous with a person (I think it is), yes.
If pain only matters to free-will persons, then pain in animals makes no sense . There would be no reason for it to evolve or for God to give it to animals.
Not to me. The cat is hungry. It hunts. That's it, that's all. It doesn't choose to hunt. It doesn't say gee, I'm hungry. It's hungry. It hunts.

Me, I choose to go out. Mebbe for food, mebbe for the sport, mebbe to rid the area of a predator preying on my livestock. I select my weapon. I plan a strategy. It's nuthin' but choices up and down the line for me.
Yeah, you have more options, you have more complex choices and more decisions to make.

But in terms of selecting the target, you appear to be doing exactly the same thing. Therefore, saying that you are making a choice and the cat isn't, appears to be false.

I always get a chuckle when people say that they know what animals are thinking. :lol: How do you know what it's thinking?
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henry quirk
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Re: compatibilism

Post by henry quirk »

So, you've responded to this...
henry quirk wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2024 3:25 am
...twice...
iambiguous wrote: Sat Aug 24, 2024 10:57 pm
iambiguous wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2024 2:30 am
...and neglected this...
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 25, 2024 12:20 am
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Re: compatibilism

Post by henry quirk »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2024 6:08 am
an anonymous, traitless, free will, with no particular motivations and desires
That's a queer description. I've never met such a person.
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henry quirk
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Re: compatibilism

Post by henry quirk »

phyllo wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2024 12:49 pm
Since pain signals a problem, something to be avoided, it would have no function or purpose if the subject feeling the pain was indifferent to it.
An automated floor vacuum is designed/programmed to avoid damage and to signal when damaged. It doesn't care that it took a tumble down the stairs. Mebbe if it were covered in fur, instead of aluminum and plastic, and if it yelped, instead blinked a red light, we might anthropomorphize it too.
How do you know what it's thinking?
How do you know that it is thinking?
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phyllo
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Re: compatibilism

Post by phyllo »

An automated floor vacuum is designed/programmed to avoid damage and to signal when damaged. It doesn't care that it took a tumble down the stairs. Mebbe if it were covered in fur, instead of aluminum and plastic, and if it yelped, instead blinked a red light, we might anthropomorphize it too.
A vacuum is signaling a problem to you.

An animal's pain is signaling a problem to the animal itself.
How do you know what it's thinking?
How do you know that it is thinking?
All I can do is to observe its behavior and draw conclusions from that.
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henry quirk
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Re: compatibilism

Post by henry quirk »

phyllo wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:11 pm
An animal's pain is signaling a problem to the animal itself.
So when it yelps it's signaling to itself?
All I can do is to observe its behavior and draw conclusions from that.
Same as me. Growing up in the country among cattle, sheep, horses, dogs, cats; and living rural now among dogs, cats, possums, squirrels, coyotes; and having extensive experiences with human beings across a number of environments, I conclude: human beings are persons, free wills; animals are bio-automata. I stopped anthropomorphizing animals a long time ago.
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phyllo
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Re: compatibilism

Post by phyllo »

So when it yelps it's signaling to itself?
It yelp for you. Obviously.
Same as me. Growing up in the country among cattle, sheep, horses, dogs, cats; and living rural now among dogs, cats, possums, squirrels, coyotes; and having extensive experiences with human beings across a number of environments, I conclude: human beings are persons, free wills; animals are bio-automata. I stopped anthropomorphizing animals a long time ago.
Maybe you're the only free-will in the world and everyone and everything else is here for your amusement.
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henry quirk
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Re: compatibilism

Post by henry quirk »

phyllo wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:54 pmIt yelp for you. Obviously.
I think the yelp -- the signal -- is a holdover from its immature, dependent days. Part of its program is to seek assistance from its progenitor. The yelp, then, is exactly like the Rhoomba blinking its red light: attention!
Maybe you're the only free-will in the world and everyone and everything else is here for your amusement.
Ya think?
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iambiguous
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Re: compatibilism

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Criticising Strawson’s Compatibilism
Nurana Rajabova is wary of an attempt to dismiss determinism to keep free will.
Strawson’s Argument

Before we get into the specifics of his paper, we should note that Strawson has a slightly idiosyncratic compatibilist position. Unlike other compatibilists, he does not identify as a determinist. In fact, he denies that he even understands the thesis of determinism. Instead he argues that even if determinism were correct, that still would not take away our sense of moral responsibility, since for Strawson the question of the justification of moral responsibility is internal to “the general structure or web of human attitudes and feelings” (‘Freedom and Resentment’).
On the other hand, how does that, for all practical purposes, actually manifest itself in our interactions with others? After all, for any number of determinists, our "sense of reality" is no less wholly compelled by our brains than is our "sense of moral responsibility".

Alluding once again to those mysterious "internal components" [which may well exist], but how do these intrinsic, integral aspects/functions of the brain -- chemically and neurologically and electrically -- become intertwined in “the general structure or web of human attitudes and feelings”? It's like finally pinning down once and for all where God ends, and mere mortals begin. Or where a Divine pantheist universe stops, and mere mortals start. Or pinning down in an indisputable manner where genes and nature give way to memes and nurture.

Or, perhaps, is Buddhism a more...reasonable approach here? How about monads?
To demonstrate this point, Strawson puts aside ideas of moral condemnation, approval, and the like, which are commonly used in the debate over free will and determinism, and instead invites his readers to focus on something much simpler and common to all human agents, that he calls ‘reactive attitudes’. These are the emotions people experience when involved in interactions with each other, and include resentment, contempt, sympathy and gratitude, among many others.
Here [click] I come back to the argument many advocates of free will make...that "somehow" our emotions and our intuitions are "different" from the purely rational components of human brains interacting in sync objectively with others in the either/or world. "Somehow", instead, our most deep-seated emotional reactions to things like abortion and nihilism and human sexuality simply "transcend" mere laws of matter. "Somehow" they put us in touch with that crucial Intrinsic, Spiritual, Natural...Real Me.

As I've noted before, even given free will, the way we think about conflicting goods is almost always in close proximity to how we feel about them...How we react to them "in our gut".

After all, how many people here think/believe philosophically and ethically what they do about abortion, moral nihilism and human sexuality, but feel/intuit quite the opposite?

Someone arguing, "I believe that abortion is deontologically justified, but deep down inside me I feel it is mass-murder." And then those fractured and fragmented as "I" am?

Or: "I believe that human autonomy is clearly a reasonable assessment of the human condition, but my gut tells me it's all on automatic pilot."
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Re: compatibilism

Post by Iwannaplato »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2024 5:49 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2024 6:08 am
an anonymous, traitless, free will, with no particular motivations and desires
That's a queer description. I've never met such a person.
Well, that's because whole persons include desires, goals etc., and these are causal.
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henry quirk
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Re: compatibilism

Post by henry quirk »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2024 6:24 amWell, that's because whole persons include desires, goals etc., and these are causal.
Seems to me: a person desires, envisions, etc. The person causes.

Subtle difference.
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