Doubts are real therefore determinism is false

[bahman]

Doubt is defined as a feeling of uncertainty in a situation.

How could you be uncertain if determinism is true?

Determinists will point out that a feeling is not a fact. That a person is “uncertain” has nothing to do with whether or not a thing is true…as in, my uncertainty about whether or not there is a real thing called “gravity” will not stop me from falling, if there is such a thing.

Doubt exists. It affects our reality. We have the impression to do or not to do when we have doubt. We are wondering whether we should do X or Y when we have doubt. My point is that the chain of causality forks when we have doubt and this is not allowed in determinism.

But you do raise a good question, in a sense: and that is, if we are all predetermined by forces outside of us, why do we feel and act as if we’re not? How do we explain that we are predetermined, but none of us knows it or acts like it’s true? How would we, in a predetermined universe, be predetermined not to know we were in a predetermined universe? And it’s entirely the responsibility of the Determinist to have to explain that; because on a free will account, it makes perfect sense that we would feel and act as if we’re not predetermined…the answer would simply be, “Because we are not predetermined at all.” So it’s up to the Determinist to provide an equally-satisfying account of why, if Determinism is true, we neither know nor think nor act as if it is.

These are good questions.

[bahman]

Doubt is defined as a feeling of uncertainty in a situation.

How could you be uncertain if determinism is true?

Because that feeling is utterly determined. As are the others? The creature has heuristics. They oversimplify reality. A situation arises that triggers two heuristics. A process starts and the creature leans one way or the other, utterly determined. A shadow appears. It looks like a man, but not quite. I pause while walking. Inevitable processes lead to me thinking it is just the shadows of branches. Doubt ends.

We feel doubt when we have to work on something harder than other times. We can also feel frustration, confusion. These are feelings we have. And they cause us to do certain things we need to do. And they are caused by those situations. Because the little models in our heads are often not enough to instantly resolve something. So, this triggers more work and the feelings are also triggered. Like someone hitting just below the knee and the knee pops up. That's fast, bypasses all the higher brain functions. Cause to effect. Give me a math problem, well it takes longer if it's hard. Just like it takes longer for a pachinko ball to reach the bottem in a complex pachinko machine than it does in a simpler one.

Doubts are not shadows. You are wondering to do X or Y in a situation when you have doubt. You pause and deliberate. This means that doubts affect your reality. A chain of causality forks at the moment you have doubts and this is not allowed in determinsm since one state of affairs uniquely determine another state of affairs. In other word, forks are not allowed in a determisntic worldview.

[Immanuel Can]

How could you be uncertain if determinism is true?

Determinists will point out that a feeling is not a fact. That a person is “uncertain” has nothing to do with whether or not a thing is true…as in, my uncertainty about whether or not there is a real thing called “gravity” will not stop me from falling, if there is such a thing.

Doubt exists. It affects our reality. We have the impression to do or not to do when we have doubt. We are wondering whether we should do X or Y when we have doubt. My point is that the chain of causality forks when we have doubt and this is not allowed in determinism.

Right. Determinism would have to say that your doubt was an illusion, because, according to it, no “fork” has anymore than one “tine.” But Determinists could say that…they just couldn’t use that to explain why you have that particular delusion.

But you do raise a good question, in a sense: and that is, if we are all predetermined by forces outside of us, why do we feel and act as if we’re not? How do we explain that we are predetermined, but none of us knows it or acts like it’s true? How would we, in a predetermined universe, be predetermined not to know we were in a predetermined universe? And it’s entirely the responsibility of the Determinist to have to explain that; because on a free will account, it makes perfect sense that we would feel and act as if we’re not predetermined…the answer would simply be, “Because we are not predetermined at all.” So it’s up to the Determinist to provide an equally-satisfying account of why, if Determinism is true, we neither know nor think nor act as if it is.

These are good questions.

Yes, I think they flow from what you’re saying. I just can’t see how Determinists can handle them.

[bahman]

Determinists will point out that a feeling is not a fact. That a person is “uncertain” has nothing to do with whether or not a thing is true…as in, my uncertainty about whether or not there is a real thing called “gravity” will not stop me from falling, if there is such a thing.

Doubt exists. It affects our reality. We have the impression to do or not to do when we have doubt. We are wondering whether we should do X or Y when we have doubt. My point is that the chain of causality forks when we have doubt and this is not allowed in determinism.

Right. Determinism would have to say that your doubt was an illusion, because, according to it, no “fork” has anymore than one “tine.”

Well, I would ask what do they mean with illusion? Doubt however affect out realities. We pause and deliberate when we have doubt. We cannot proceed further until we make a decision in the situation when we have doubt.

But Determinists could say that…they just couldn’t use that to explain why you have that particular delusion.

That is a good point.

[phyllo]

How do you define doubt?

Doubt is defined as a feeling of uncertainty in a situation.

How could you be uncertain if determinism is true?

Because you are not omniscient.

You lack information and knowledge.

[Iwannaplato]

Doubts are not shadows. You are wondering to do X or Y in a situation when you have doubt. You pause and deliberate. This means that doubts affect your reality. A chain of causality forks at the moment you have doubts and this is not allowed in determinsm since one state of affairs uniquely determine another state of affairs. In other word, forks are not allowed in a determisntic worldview.

A golf ball can teeter on the edge of a hole for a long time. The grass is exerting forces, the momentum is a force, the wind, gravity...pause, then the various force reconcile. There are millions of phenomena like this where forces lead to a pause.
Tidal Locking
The gravitational forces between a planet and its moon cause a gradual slowing of the moon's rotation until it becomes tidally locked, where one side always faces the planet. This process involves a prolonged "pause" in rotational adjustment.
Stalemate in Predator-Prey Dynamics
In predator-prey systems, populations may reach a temporary equilibrium where neither population grows nor declines significantly, creating a pause in the dynamics.
Seasonal Dormancy
Certain plants and animals enter a state of dormancy in response to environmental conditions, resulting in a pause in growth or activity until favorable conditions return.
Water Freezing
As water cools and reaches the freezing point, there can be a pause or supercooling where water remains liquid below its freezing point until nucleation occurs.

And what you are callnig a pause, isn't really a pause. All sorts of things are ongoing inside the person, forces are interactions, ideas and feelings are swirling and when a winner finally overcomes other feelings and thought, because it is stronger or has a larger metaphorical mass, then the ball falls in the hole, the decision is made, the next action takes place.

There are pauses and seeming stoppaged all around us all the time, even in stones on an uneven hillside that was sliding, stops moving, but gravity is still working on the obstacle which itself is not clamped to the slope.....time passes and.........the stone starts moving again. A pause as the water between two islands was moving in one direction but now the tides have shifted and water isn't quite moving in any direction then one set of forces sets in motion a new direction. No free will, just conflicting forces.....conflicting then something gives, or the pause lasts a long, long time. Essentially you are doing a few things here. YOu are treating people as unitary forces AND you are calling something a pause where actually a lot of things are going on, as the various parts/tendencies/forces/vectors/ churn against each other. All causes, all caused.

1. Water Droplet on a Leaf
A droplet of water can remain perched on the edge of a leaf due to surface tension and gravity balancing each other. It seems to pause until the weight of the droplet or a disturbance causes it to fall.
2. Balancing Rock
A large rock can appear to pause in a precarious balancing position, held by friction and the shape of the contact point with the ground. Eventually, erosion, an earthquake, or a slight shift may cause it to tip over.
3. Suspended Ice Cube in Warm Water
An ice cube floating in warm water seems to pause as it melts slowly. The opposing forces of the ice cube’s buoyancy and the heat from the water work against each other until the ice cube finally melts completely.
4. Hanging Icicle
An icicle can seem to pause in growth as it hangs, with the water slowly freezing and dripping off. The icicle grows in length but at a seemingly paused rate when temperature and conditions stabilize.
5. Bubble Rising in a Carbonated Drink
A bubble in a carbonated drink might rise quickly, then seem to pause just below the surface as it experiences a momentary balance between buoyancy and surface tension, before it finally bursts through.
6. Salt Crystal Formation
As salt crystals form in a supersaturated solution, the process can appear to pause at a certain size. Crystallization continues, but the growth rate slows as the solution approaches equilibrium.
7. Avalanche Precursors
Snow on a mountainside can seem to pause, held in place by friction and cohesion. As more snow accumulates, it reaches a critical point where it suddenly gives way in an avalanche.
8. Drifting Sand Dune
A sand dune can seem to pause in its movement across a desert as wind forces pushing it balance with the dune's weight and the friction between grains. Eventually, stronger winds or a shift in direction will move it again.
9. Crack Propagation in Glass
A crack in a piece of glass may seem to pause after initial formation. The stress distribution temporarily holds the crack in place until further stress or pressure causes it to propagate.

[Walker]

Doubt exists. It affects our reality. We have the impression to do or not to do when we have doubt. We are wondering whether we should do X or Y when we have doubt. My point is that the chain of causality forks when we have doubt and this is not allowed in determinism.

Doubts are simply mind creations and don't exist outside the boundary of skin, although they can affect actions that do exist.

Of course forks are permitted. Consider the mouse in a maze bound by predestination. As with humans, Mickey faces many forks on the journey towards his destiny, and like humans he uses mulligans and other do-overs until he knows enough to drop choices and follow the straight path, without need for the boat filled with the comfortable old detours of doubt that serve to keep the separate ego in charge of operations. Once he knows the way Mickey leaves the boat on the shoreline for the next seeker. If he had a bigger brain he could have deduced the implications of his newfound freedom that lay beyond the cheese and appreciated shrugging off the habitual burden of doubt. He would have the capacity to do no wrong but rather, just roll with what is much like Walt, his creator.

[bahman]

Doubt is defined as a feeling of uncertainty in a situation.

How could you be uncertain if determinism is true?

Because you are not omniscient.

There is no such a thing as Omniscient.

You lack information and knowledge.

Correct, hence doubt could exist.

[bahman]

Doubts are not shadows. You are wondering to do X or Y in a situation when you have doubt. You pause and deliberate. This means that doubts affect your reality. A chain of causality forks at the moment you have doubts and this is not allowed in determinsm since one state of affairs uniquely determine another state of affairs. In other word, forks are not allowed in a determisntic worldview.

A golf ball can teeter on the edge of a hole for a long time. The grass is exerting forces, the momentum is a force, the wind, gravity...pause, then the various force reconcile. There are millions of phenomena like this where forces lead to a pause.
Tidal Locking
The gravitational forces between a planet and its moon cause a gradual slowing of the moon's rotation until it becomes tidally locked, where one side always faces the planet. This process involves a prolonged "pause" in rotational adjustment.
Stalemate in Predator-Prey Dynamics
In predator-prey systems, populations may reach a temporary equilibrium where neither population grows nor declines significantly, creating a pause in the dynamics.
Seasonal Dormancy
Certain plants and animals enter a state of dormancy in response to environmental conditions, resulting in a pause in growth or activity until favorable conditions return.
Water Freezing
As water cools and reaches the freezing point, there can be a pause or supercooling where water remains liquid below its freezing point until nucleation occurs.

And what you are callnig a pause, isn't really a pause. All sorts of things are ongoing inside the person, forces are interactions, ideas and feelings are swirling and when a winner finally overcomes other feelings and thought, because it is stronger or has a larger metaphorical mass, then the ball falls in the hole, the decision is made, the next action takes place.

There are pauses and seeming stoppaged all around us all the time, even in stones on an uneven hillside that was sliding, stops moving, but gravity is still working on the obstacle which itself is not clamped to the slope.....time passes and.........the stone starts moving again. A pause as the water between two islands was moving in one direction but now the tides have shifted and water isn't quite moving in any direction then one set of forces sets in motion a new direction. No free will, just conflicting forces.....conflicting then something gives, or the pause lasts a long, long time. Essentially you are doing a few things here. YOu are treating people as unitary forces AND you are calling something a pause where actually a lot of things are going on, as the various parts/tendencies/forces/vectors/ churn against each other. All causes, all caused.

1. Water Droplet on a Leaf
A droplet of water can remain perched on the edge of a leaf due to surface tension and gravity balancing each other. It seems to pause until the weight of the droplet or a disturbance causes it to fall.
2. Balancing Rock
A large rock can appear to pause in a precarious balancing position, held by friction and the shape of the contact point with the ground. Eventually, erosion, an earthquake, or a slight shift may cause it to tip over.
3. Suspended Ice Cube in Warm Water
An ice cube floating in warm water seems to pause as it melts slowly. The opposing forces of the ice cube’s buoyancy and the heat from the water work against each other until the ice cube finally melts completely.
4. Hanging Icicle
An icicle can seem to pause in growth as it hangs, with the water slowly freezing and dripping off. The icicle grows in length but at a seemingly paused rate when temperature and conditions stabilize.
5. Bubble Rising in a Carbonated Drink
A bubble in a carbonated drink might rise quickly, then seem to pause just below the surface as it experiences a momentary balance between buoyancy and surface tension, before it finally bursts through.
6. Salt Crystal Formation
As salt crystals form in a supersaturated solution, the process can appear to pause at a certain size. Crystallization continues, but the growth rate slows as the solution approaches equilibrium.
7. Avalanche Precursors
Snow on a mountainside can seem to pause, held in place by friction and cohesion. As more snow accumulates, it reaches a critical point where it suddenly gives way in an avalanche.
8. Drifting Sand Dune
A sand dune can seem to pause in its movement across a desert as wind forces pushing it balance with the dune's weight and the friction between grains. Eventually, stronger winds or a shift in direction will move it again.
9. Crack Propagation in Glass
A crack in a piece of glass may seem to pause after initial formation. The stress distribution temporarily holds the crack in place until further stress or pressure causes it to propagate.

Thanks for collecting all the example! In non of your example, the object has the subjective experience of doubt.

[phyllo]

How could you be uncertain if determinism is true?

Because you are not omniscient.

There is no such a thing as Omniscient.

You lack information and knowledge.

Correct, hence doubt could exist.

Therefore, uncertainly and doubt cannot be used to draw any conclusions about determinism and free-will.

[bahman]

Because you are not omniscient.

There is no such a thing as Omniscient.

You lack information and knowledge.

Correct, hence doubt could exist.

Therefore, uncertainly and doubt cannot be used to draw any conclusions about determinism and free-will.

You don't know what doubt is. Do you?

[phyllo]

You don't know what doubt is. Do you?

Yes, I do.

And IWP gave a definition in this thread which seems pretty good.

But you believe that your understanding of doubt makes it possible to conclude something about determinism

[bahman]

You don't know what doubt is. Do you?

Yes, I do.

And IWP gave a definition in this thread which seems pretty good.

But you believe that your understanding of doubt makes it possible to conclude something about determinism

How do you define determinism?

[bahman]

Doubt exists. It affects our reality. We have the impression to do or not to do when we have doubt. We are wondering whether we should do X or Y when we have doubt. My point is that the chain of causality forks when we have doubt and this is not allowed in determinism.

Doubts are simply mind creations and don't exist outside the boundary of skin, although they can affect actions that do exist.

Of course forks are permitted. Consider the mouse in a maze bound by predestination. As with humans, Mickey faces many forks on the journey towards his destiny, and like humans he uses mulligans and other do-overs until he knows enough to drop choices and follow the straight path, without need for the boat filled with the comfortable old detours of doubt that serve to keep the separate ego in charge of operations. Once he knows the way Mickey leaves the boat on the shoreline for the next seeker. If he had a bigger brain he could have deduced the implications of his newfound freedom that lay beyond the cheese and appreciated shrugging off the habitual burden of doubt. He would have the capacity to do no wrong but rather, just roll with what is much like Walt, his creator.

Correct.

[phyllo]

You don't know what doubt is. Do you?

Yes, I do.

And IWP gave a definition in this thread which seems pretty good.

But you believe that your understanding of doubt makes it possible to conclude something about determinism

How do you define determinism?

Let's not go back to page 1.

Uncertainty and doubt are produced by lack of knowledge. That lack of knowledge is present in both a free-will universe and a determined universe. Therefore doubt is present in both cases. And it cannot be used to distinguish between the two cases.

It's that simple.