Free Will

[Harbal]

We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal.

Actually, we know no such thing.

If you don't know it, you sure should. Entropy proves it, and, as Henry points out, mathematics proves it as well. It's actually one of the most certain things we do know.

I asked ChatGPT.

[Harbal]

We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal.

Actually, we know no such thing.

Actually we do. Science tells us the universe had a beginning,

I think there are too many pieces of the puzzle missing for science to be able to give us the complete picture, so I'm going to stay in the don't know camp, no matter how lonely it gets in there.

and common sense tells us there can be no infinite regress.

We are going to come up against that either way; how can it be avoided? Common sense tells me that paradoxes are a sign we have failed to take something into account. We either have a gap in our knowledge, or we have come up against something the human mind is incapable of understanding; probably a bit of both.

[henry quirk]

Post the links, if you don't mind.

Here's the first...

https://mindmatters.ai/wp-content/uploa ... sode-1.pdf

...consider it a primer.

Let me know when you want more.

[Immanuel Can]

and common sense tells us there can be no infinite regress.

We are going to come up against that either way; how can it be avoided? Common sense tells me that paradoxes are a sign we have failed to take something into account. We either have a gap in our knowledge, or we have come up against something the human mind is incapable of understanding; probably a bit of both.

Well, sometimes a “paradox” is a “contradiction.” And such is the case in the mathematical concept of infinite regress, as applied to causes. It shows that our supposition (an infinite past) contradicts mathematics. In other words, that it’s not sensible, not rational, and not plausibly true. That’s a great deal more than “paradoxical”: it shows that the basic supposition is downright wrong.

There is no infinite past in the universe. We can be quite certain of that. If we fail to know it, then the fault is in our own apprehension of mathematics.

[Gary Childress]

We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal.

Really? When does the universe end?

[henry quirk]

We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal.

Really? When does the universe end?

You're not eternal, you had a beginning: when do you end?

You get the point, yes?

Que sera, sera
Whatever will be, will be
*The future's not ours to see
Que sera, sera
What will be, will be

*we can say, though, with certainty, the universe will end

[Gary Childress]

We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal.

Really? When does the universe end?

You're not eternal, you had a beginning: when do you end?

You get the point, yes?

Que sera, sera
Whatever will be, will be
*The future's not ours to see
Que sera, sera
What will be, will be

So the universe ends when I end? Is that the case? Wow! Maybe you'd better try to keep me alive, Henry. I'd hate for you to meet an untimely death if I die first.

*we can say, though, with certainty, the universe will end

Can we say that with "certainty?"

[henry quirk]

Really? When does the universe end?

You're not eternal, you had a beginning: when do you end?

You get the point, yes?

Que sera, sera
Whatever will be, will be
*The future's not ours to see
Que sera, sera
What will be, will be

So the universe ends when I end? Is that the case? Wow! Maybe you'd better try to keep me alive, Henry. I'd hate for you to meet an untimely death if I die first.

*we can say, though, with certainty, the universe will end

Can we say that with "certainty?"

*sigh*

Mannie said: We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal.

You asked: Really? When does the universe end? A dumb question. As though knowing of a beginning imparts knowledge of when the end comes.

I piped in: The future's not ours to see(.)

Do you get it now?

And: yes, we can say with certainty the universe will end, just not exactly how or when.

[Harbal]

Post the links, if you don't mind.

Here's the first...

https://mindmatters.ai/wp-content/uploa ... sode-1.pdf

...consider it a primer.

Let me know when you want more.

Thanks, henry. I've saved the PDF, and I'll read it in stages. I can't handle too much at once.

[Harbal]

and common sense tells us there can be no infinite regress.

We are going to come up against that either way; how can it be avoided? Common sense tells me that paradoxes are a sign we have failed to take something into account. We either have a gap in our knowledge, or we have come up against something the human mind is incapable of understanding; probably a bit of both.

Well, sometimes a “paradox” is a “contradiction.” And such is the case in the mathematical concept of infinite regress, as applied to causes. It shows that our supposition (an infinite past) contradicts mathematics. In other words, that it’s not sensible, not rational, and not plausibly true. That’s a great deal more than “paradoxical”: it shows that the basic supposition is downright wrong.

There is no infinite past in the universe. We can be quite certain of that. If we fail to know it, then the fault is in our own apprehension of mathematics.

Yes, but avoiding infinite regress by placing an arbitrary (fictitious) road block, called God, in its way is not much of an answer to the problem. Even if we think a "first cause" is a logical possibility, that first cause would not necessarily be God.

[henry quirk]

Thanks, henry. I've saved the PDF, and I'll read it in stages. I can't handle too much at once.

[Immanuel Can]

We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal.

Really? When does the universe end?

Eternal in the past. Eternity has two “directions,” you know.

[Immanuel Can]

We are going to come up against that either way; how can it be avoided? Common sense tells me that paradoxes are a sign we have failed to take something into account. We either have a gap in our knowledge, or we have come up against something the human mind is incapable of understanding; probably a bit of both.

Well, sometimes a “paradox” is a “contradiction.” And such is the case in the mathematical concept of infinite regress, as applied to causes. It shows that our supposition (an infinite past) contradicts mathematics. In other words, that it’s not sensible, not rational, and not plausibly true. That’s a great deal more than “paradoxical”: it shows that the basic supposition is downright wrong.

There is no infinite past in the universe. We can be quite certain of that. If we fail to know it, then the fault is in our own apprehension of mathematics.

Yes, but avoiding infinite regress by placing an arbitrary (fictitious) road block,

The “roadblock” is called “maths.”

[ThinkOfOne]

We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal.

Really? When does the universe end?

Eternal in the past. Eternity has two “directions,” you know.

Of course. Like when a Christian believes they have received eternal life there is no beginning or ending.

[Immanuel Can]

Really? When does the universe end?

Eternal in the past. Eternity has two “directions,” you know.

Of course. Like when a Christian believes they have received eternal life there is no beginning or ending.

“No beginning”? You’ll have to explain where you got that “theology.” Go ahead.