Free Will

[henry quirk]

I don't find not knowing a problem.

As an atheist, I did.

Post the links, if you don't mind.

I will. If you wanna do your own research you can go to https://mindmatters.ai/

It's where I'll draw all the links from.

But we have reason to believe there is something that somehow corresponds with the "placeholder", FIRE. I'm not aware of any reason to think the same of the soul.

If you are just your body and brain, and your body and brain are nuthin' but an aggregate of mindless particles, how is it you have a mind? Fact is: you do have a mind despite being nuthin' but mindless particles. That seems like a reason to me.

morality quite often seems like a matter of objective truth to me, but thinking about it rationally, I just can't see how it can be.

See, (and I'm not tryin'' to insult you) I don't think you are thinking about it. You've admitted all this esoterica holds little interest for you so isn't more likely you've just read things that seem to explain things and then let it go at that?

It will probably surprise you to learn that I find your views on the subject perfectly reasonable.

I say it seems relevant because if the world was brought into existence millions/billions of years before any life emerged, what sense would concepts like morality and natural rights have made?

If, as I say, morality is all about what is permissible among and between persons, and natural rights adhere to persons, without man there is no morality or natural rights. So, if Darwin is right, and man didn't appear till about 200,000 years ago, give or take, then this universe has been devoid of morality and natural rights for almost all of its 13 or 14 billion years (assuming no other persons came to be elsewhere).

[Immanuel Can]

Have you ever experienced your mind?

The only way you can "experience" is WITH your mind. You've never done anything else.

Meat cannot "have experiences."

Prove it!

What "experiences" is the meat in your freezer having right now?

Which version of substance dualism do you believe?

Not "substance" dualism at all.

Then which version of dualism do you believe in?

People don't have the best theory. The best theory is a theory which is anomaly-free!

This is nonsense. All "theories" are subject to "anomalies." When they are not, they become simple facts.

So to you, God's knowledge of reality is subject to anomalies as well?

Your "god" has "theories"? Mine never does.

I don't find it fruitful to discuss it with you since you didn't agree with it.

Oh. So if somebody doesn't agree with you, it's not "fruitful"? Okay. I guess we're done.

[bahman]

The only way you can "experience" is WITH your mind. You've never done anything else.

Meat cannot "have experiences."

Prove it!

What "experiences" is the meat in your freezer having right now?

Prove that the meat in your freezer does not have any experience!

Which version of substance dualism do you believe?

Not "substance" dualism at all.

Then which version of dualism do you believe in?

Actually, that was my question! I have my version of substance dualism.

This is nonsense. All "theories" are subject to "anomalies." When they are not, they become simple facts.

So to you, God's knowledge of reality is subject to anomalies as well?

Your "god" has "theories"? Mine never does.

Well, that depends on how you define a theory. According to the dictionary: A system of ideas intended to explain something.

I don't find it fruitful to discuss it with you since you didn't agree with it.

Oh. So if somebody doesn't agree with you, it's not "fruitful"? Okay. I guess we're done.

Well, I am open to discuss it with you if you are interested.

[Impenitent]

What "experiences" is the meat in your freezer having right now?

just chillin' out man...

-Imp

[Harbal]

But we have reason to believe there is something that somehow corresponds with the "placeholder", FIRE. I'm not aware of any reason to think the same of the soul.

If you are just your body and brain, and your body and brain are nuthin' but an aggregate of mindless particles, how is it you have a mind? Fact is: you do have a mind despite being nuthin' but mindless particles. That seems like a reason to me.

Yes, I have a mind (am a mind?), but I can't draw any conclusions from that other than I have a mind. That's mystery enough for me, without wandering off into soul territory.

morality quite often seems like a matter of objective truth to me, but thinking about it rationally, I just can't see how it can be.

See, (and I'm not tryin'' to insult you) I don't think you are thinking about it. You've admitted all this esoterica holds little interest for you so isn't more likely you've just read things that seem to explain things and then let it go at that?

My opinion isn't based on anything I've read. If my opinions were based on stuff I'd read, I would barely have any opinions.

I believe in morality, but I think it is a purely human construct. We came up with it; it wasn't a gift that we received from God. That's how I see it. I don't see how that makes it any less worth having.

I say it seems relevant because if the world was brought into existence millions/billions of years before any life emerged, what sense would concepts like morality and natural rights have made?

If, as I say, morality is all about what is permissible among and between persons, and natural rights adhere to persons, without man there is no morality or natural rights. So, if Darwin is right, and man didn't appear till about 200,000 years ago, give or take, then this universe has been devoid of morality and natural rights for almost all of its 13 or 14 billion years (assuming no other persons came to be elsewhere).

But anything that had an objective existence would exist regardless of whatever else existed, wouldn't it? If morality only exists while humans exist, doesn't that suggest we brought it with us?

[henry quirk]

That's mystery enough for me, without wandering off into soul territory.

That's fine. Just set soul and its baggage aside. Just focus on what is apparent: your mind cannot be the product of the mindless activity of mindless particles. You don't have commit to anything simply to acknowledge that.

If my opinions were based on stuff I'd read, I would barely have any opinions.

HA!

I believe in morality, but I think it is a purely human construct. We came up with it; it wasn't a gift that we received from God. That's how I see it. I don't see how that makes it any less worth having.

That's okay. If I'm right -- that you're a free will with natural rights and moral discernment -- then your belief is unneccessary cuz -- believe it or not -- you are a free will with natural rights and moral discernment.

But anything that had an objective existence would exist regardless of whatever else existed, wouldn't it? If morality only exists while humans exist, doesn't that suggest we brought it with us?

You'd agree a thing exists when conditions allow for it, yeah? I can't barbecue under water. The conditions don't allow for it. But where they do allow for it, I can fire up one hell of cook out. So, we can say until conditions were right, soul/mind, natural rights and the morality extending out from natural rights couldn't exist.

[Immanuel Can]

Prove it!

What "experiences" is the meat in your freezer having right now?

Prove that the meat in your freezer does not have any experience!

We have absolutely no basis or reason at all to suppose it does. So for the moment, the assumption has to be it does not. But if you think meat in a freezer can have "experiences," I'm going to have to see your evidence that it can.

Go ahead.

So to you, God's knowledge of reality is subject to anomalies as well?

Your "god" has "theories"? Mine never does.

Well, that depends on how you define a theory. According to the dictionary: A system of ideas intended to explain something.

My God does not have any use for a theory. A theory is what one has when one does not know the answer to something.

I don't find it fruitful to discuss it with you since you didn't agree with it.

Oh. So if somebody doesn't agree with you, it's not "fruitful"? Okay. I guess we're done.

Well, I am open to discuss it with you if you are interested.

In Buddhism? No, not really interested -- but for good reasons. We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal. Buddhism requires the belief that it is eternal. So there's not even a chance Buddhism is right, and we can dismiss it for good, scientific reasons.

[Immanuel Can]

What "experiences" is the meat in your freezer having right now?

just chillin' out man...

-Imp

Well, he received a frosty reception. So it's good that he's turned a cold shoulder to it, and put the whole situation on ice.

[Harbal]

We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal.

Actually, we know no such thing.

[henry quirk]

We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal.

Actually, we know no such thing.

Actually we do. Science tells us the universe had a beginning, and common sense tells us there can be no infinite regress.

But, all that, and links, are for tomorrow...I'm bushed.

G'night Forum.

[Immanuel Can]

We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal.

Actually, we know no such thing.

If you don't know it, you sure should. Entropy proves it, and, as Henry points out, mathematics proves it as well. It's actually one of the most certain things we do know.

[Age]

I don't find not knowing a problem.

As an atheist, I did.

Post the links, if you don't mind.

I will. If you wanna do your own research you can go to https://mindmatters.ai/

It's where I'll draw all the links from.

But we have reason to believe there is something that somehow corresponds with the "placeholder", FIRE. I'm not aware of any reason to think the same of the soul.

If you are just your body and brain, and your body and brain are nuthin' but an aggregate of mindless particles, how is it you have a mind? Fact is: you do have a mind despite being nuthin' but mindless particles. That seems like a reason to me.

If, and when, you ever find out who and what the word 'you' is referring to, exactly, then 'you' will also find out and know how 'you' do not have a 'mind' and never could have a 'mind'. 'you' might also, at the same time, learn what the word 'mind' word is referring to, exactly, as well.

morality quite often seems like a matter of objective truth to me, but thinking about it rationally, I just can't see how it can be.

See, (and I'm not tryin'' to insult you) I don't think you are thinking about it. You've admitted all this esoterica holds little interest for you so isn't more likely you've just read things that seem to explain things and then let it go at that?

It will probably surprise you to learn that I find your views on the subject perfectly reasonable.

I say it seems relevant because if the world was brought into existence millions/billions of years before any life emerged, what sense would concepts like morality and natural rights have made?

If, as I say, morality is all about what is permissible among and between persons, and natural rights adhere to persons, without man there is no morality or natural rights. So, if Darwin is right, and man didn't appear till about 200,000 years ago, give or take, then this universe has been devoid of morality and natural rights for almost all of its 13 or 14 billion years (assuming no other persons came to be elsewhere).

There is just so much here that is absolutely False and Wrong, so where to begin to Correct here one wonders.

Why do you believe that the Universe begun and is so young?

[Age]

We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal.

Actually, we know no such thing.

Actually we do. Science tells us the universe had a beginning, and common sense tells us there can be no infinite regress.

But, all that, and links, are for tomorrow...I'm bushed.

G'night Forum.

Why is it that those who believe, absolutely, that God is a male gendered Thing or person also believe, absolutely, that the Universe began, even where there is absolutely no proof at all for all of these things?

The irrefutable answer is absolutely obvious. But, let 'us' see if any of these ones here are able to answer and clarify.

Not that any of these ones will even try to.

[Age]

We know empirically, scientifically, that the universe is not eternal.

Actually, we know no such thing.

If you don't know it, you sure should. Entropy proves it, and, as Henry points out, mathematics proves it as well. It's actually one of the most certain things we do know.

LOL Talk about prime example of being absolutely blinded by one's own made up Truly twisted and distorted False beliefs.

These ones here could not even recognize just how Truly closed they are, even when their own words here, themselves, prove, irrefutably, that they are absolutely are.

[Age]

Now, for those who would like to have a Truly 'philosophical discussion' about 'free will', that is; to have a Truly open and honest discussion in relation to finding out whether 'free will' exists, or not, through 'logical reasoning', in a peaceful way, then let 'us' begin.

But, for the rest of you who have an already obtained assumption or belief about 'free will' itself, 'we' shall leave you to bicker and fight with each other over and for your own already obtained opposing beliefs here.

There is absolutely nothing hard nor complex at all here.

When the words 'free will' just mean, or refer to, 'the ability to choose', only, then absolutely no one can refute that you human beings obtain 'the ability to choose'.

However, in saying this, you human beings only have 'the ability to choose' from a 'pre-determined' 'group or set of thoughts'.

And, given enough time, and continued existence, you human beings 'will choose' to do 'those things' that 'will create' what has been pre-determined to be created, and achieved.

So, if the word 'determinism' just means, or refers to, what will happen and occur 'is determined', (or was pre-determined, if one likes), then it was through the allowing of a species, to evolve and thus be created, with 'intelligence', itself, to also be absolutely 'free' to 'willfully' 'choose' what it wants for "itself", then through 'determination', itself, create and make 'the actual world' that it wants to live in. Which, by the way, is the 'exact same world' that is said to come about, if you live 'the Right way', and was 'determined' 'to be', anyway.

One of the most hilarious parts of watching you 'believing' adult human beings fighting and bickering over your own 'pre-determined' opposing "atheist" and "theist" beliefs, for thousands upon thousands of years is that you all have been misunderstanding, and thus, literally, 'missing the mark' here.

Now, if you human beings end up wiping "yourselves" out through your fighting or other Wrong ways of living, then this is of absolutely no concern at all 'universally-wise'. See, as the Universe is, irrefutably, eternal even if you human beings become extinct, through your own makings, or not, there will always be other intelligent species who will have evolved, into Existence, also with 'the ability to choose, 'absolutely freely', and who will work out, and understand, what is actually needed to create the Truly peaceful and harmonious world' that all of you human beings once also wanted, and desired.