Betti: Against Facts, Compositional & Propositional

[Veritas Aequitas]

In PH's insistence 'Morality is Not Objective' he is relying on his definition of 'what is fact' i.e.
PH: "a fact is a feature of reality that is the case, state of affair, just-is which is independent of any individual's opinion, beliefs and judgment, i.e. it exists regardless of whether there are humans or not."

I have countered that PH's "what is fact" in general is grounded on an illusion.
PH's 'what is fact' is specifically the traditional concept of "what is fact", i.e. compositional.

Arianna Betti in her book "Against Facts" charged that the traditional 'what is fact' is redundant and useless for serious philosophy and should be abandoned from philosophy forever.

Here's AI summary of "Against Facts"

Summary of "Against Facts" by Arianna Betti
Arianna Betti’s Against Facts is a philosophical work that challenges the traditional understanding of facts. The book primarily focuses on critiquing two prevalent conceptions of facts: compositional facts and propositional facts.

Compositional Facts
Definition: Compositional facts are considered to be real-world objects that correspond to true sentences. They are thought to be the glue that binds together the elements of a sentence, making it true.
Betti’s Argument: Betti argues against the necessity of compositional facts. She proposes that relations themselves can fulfill the role of unifying the elements of a sentence without the need for a separate entity like a fact. She introduces the concept of "relata-specific relations" to support her argument.

Propositional Facts
Definition: Propositional facts are seen as true propositions or the meanings of sentences. They are often considered the primary bearers of truth and falsity.
Betti’s Argument: Betti challenges the idea of propositional facts by questioning the nature of propositions themselves. She argues that the notion of a proposition requires a clear understanding of declarative sentences or truth and falsity, which is problematic.

Linguistic Arguments and Philosophical Method
Betti's Approach: The book employs linguistic arguments to counter philosophers who rely on language-based evidence to support the existence of facts. She criticizes the use of linguistic arguments in metaphysics, advocating for a more revisionary approach.

In conclusion, "Against Facts" provides a critical analysis of the concept of facts, challenging traditional philosophical views.
Betti's work encourages readers to reconsider the role of facts in metaphysics and to explore alternative explanations for the structure of reality.

While it recommended we abandon Compositional and Propositional Facts, the better alternative are FSERC Contingent Facts which are more realistic and pragmatic, i.e. are scientific FSERC facts, moral FSERC facts, and so on.
see below: viewtopic.php?p=724390#p724390

[Veritas Aequitas]

Notes:

My Question to AI with reference to PH definition of "what is fact"

My interlocutor [PH] definition of 'what is fact' is:
"a fact is a feature of reality that is the case, state of affair, just-is which is independent of any individual's opinion, beliefs and judgment, i.e. it exists regardless of whether there are humans or not."

Does this definition of "what is fact" comes within the ambit of Betti's "Against Fact"?
If so, in what manner?

AI [wR] response:

Your Interlocutor's Definition of Fact and Betti's "Against Facts"
Your interlocutor's definition of a fact aligns closely with the traditional, or "common sense", understanding of a fact. It posits a fact as an objective feature of reality, independent of human perception or cognition. This view is often contrasted with subjective opinions or beliefs.

Betti’s "Against Facts" directly challenges this traditional conception. While she doesn't explicitly deny the existence of a reality independent of human minds, her primary target is the philosophical need for a distinct category of entities called "facts" to represent this reality.

Here's how your interlocutor's definition intersects with Betti's arguments:

Compositional Facts: Your interlocutor's definition seems to support the idea of compositional facts - entities in the world that correspond to true statements. However, Betti argues that these compositional facts are unnecessary for understanding how language connects to the world. She proposes alternative ways to account for the structure of reality without invoking facts.
Independence of Facts: Both your interlocutor and the traditional view emphasize the independence of facts from human minds. Yet, Betti's focus is not on denying this independence but on questioning the need for a separate category of entities called "facts" to represent this independent reality.

In essence, while your interlocutor's definition is consistent with the traditional view of facts, Betti's work invites us to reconsider the philosophical grounds for such a view. She doesn't deny the existence of a mind-independent reality but challenges the necessity of positing facts as distinct entities to represent it.

..........

The Roots of Compositional and Propositional Facts
The concepts of compositional and propositional facts do indeed trace their origins back to the early 20th-century giants of analytic philosophy: Russell, Frege, and Wittgenstein.

Russell and the Theory of Descriptions
Compositional leanings: Russell's work, particularly his theory of descriptions, can be seen as laying the groundwork for compositional facts. His analysis of definite descriptions (like "the king of France") into logical form revealed underlying components.
Example: "The king of France is bald" is analyzed as "There is one and only one x such that x is king of France, and that x is bald." This analysis suggests a breakdown of the statement into simpler components, akin to compositional facts.

Frege and Sense and Reference
Propositional leanings: Frege's distinction between sense and reference is often seen as a precursor to propositional facts. The sense of a sentence is the thought it expresses, which can be seen as a propositional entity.
Example: The sentence "Snow is white" has a sense (the thought that snow is white) and a reference (the truth value, true). The sense can be considered a propositional fact.

Wittgenstein's Tractatus
Both compositional and propositional elements: Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus is a complex work that contains elements of both compositional and propositional views.
Picture theory of meaning: The picture theory suggests a correspondence between language and the world, which has compositional implications.
Propositions as truth-functions: However, Wittgenstein also treats propositions as truth-functions of elementary propositions, hinting at a propositional structure.

In conclusion, while the terms "compositional" and "propositional" facts might not have been used explicitly by these philosophers, the core ideas underpinning these concepts can be traced back to their work.
Russell's focus on logical analysis and Frege's distinction between sense and reference laid the foundation for later developments in these areas.
Wittgenstein's Tractatus offered a complex interplay of compositional and propositional elements, influencing subsequent philosophical discussions.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Notes:

Betti's Counterargument to the Traditional Conception of Fact
As we've established, your interlocutor's definition of a fact aligns with the traditional view: a fact is an independent feature of reality. Betti, however, challenges the necessity of positing such entities.

The Core of Betti's Argument
Betti primarily focuses on the role of facts in language and metaphysics. She argues that:

1. Facts are not essential for understanding truth: While it's commonly thought that facts are what make sentences true, Betti contends that truth can be accounted for without invoking facts. She suggests that the structure of language and the world is sufficient to explain truth without the need for intermediary entities like facts.

2. Facts are not ontologically necessary: Even if we accept that there is a mind-independent reality, Betti questions whether we need to posit facts as distinct entities within this reality. She proposes alternative ways of understanding the world's structure that do not require facts.

Countering the Traditional View
In essence, Betti's argument is not that facts don't exist, but rather that they are not a necessary or fundamental category of being. Her focus is on the philosophical and linguistic roles attributed to facts, not on their ontological status.
By challenging the necessity of facts in explaining truth and the structure of the world, Betti indirectly counters the traditional view that facts are independent features of reality. Her work invites us to reconsider whether the concept of a fact is a useful or accurate representation of our understanding of the world.

To summarize:
• Traditional view: Facts are independent features of reality that correspond to true statements.
• Betti's view: Facts are not necessary to explain truth or the structure of the world. The concept of a fact might be a philosophical construct rather than a fundamental ontological category.

By shifting the focus from the existence of facts to their philosophical role, Betti offers a new perspective on the nature of reality and language.

[Flannel Jesus]

More ai slop? Booooo!

[Veritas Aequitas]

Notes

A Contingent Fact is more realistic than a Compositional Fact:

Betti seem to propose that both compositional and propositional facts can be abandon without a problem for philosophy.

A typical definition of what is fact is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact
A fact is a true datum about one or more aspects of a circumstance.[1]
Standard reference works are often used to check facts.
1. Scientific facts are verified by repeatable careful observation or measurement by experiments or other means.
For example,
2. "This sentence contains words." accurately describes a linguistic fact, and
3. "The sun is a star" accurately describes an astronomical fact. Further,
4. "Abraham Lincoln was the 16th President of the United States" and "Abraham Lincoln was assassinated" both accurately describe historical facts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

From the above, I infer what is fact is contingent upon its specific human-based [collective of subjects] framework and system [FS].
As such, scientific facts are contingent upon the scientific framework, astronomical facts upon it specific FS, economics facts from a economic FS and so on.

Would such a FS-contingent-fact be more realistic than a compositional or propositional fact?

AI [wR] responded:

FS-Contingent Facts vs. Compositional & Propositional Facts
Your analysis is insightful. Betti argues against both compositional and propositional facts, and your concept of FS-contingent facts aligns with a similar critique. Let's explore the comparison:

Compositional and Propositional Facts
Focus: These traditional views focus on facts as entities independent of human understanding.
Compositional: Sees facts as real-world objects corresponding to true sentences.
Propositional: Sees facts as true propositions, abstract representations of reality.
Betti's Critique: Betti argues that neither approach is necessary. We can explain the world without positing separate entities called facts.

FS-Contingent Facts
Focus: Your idea shifts focus to the framework used to establish facts.
FS (Framework & System): Facts depend on the specific scientific, historical, or economic framework used to understand them.
Contingent: Truths are contingent upon the chosen framework, meaning they might change as the framework evolves.

Comparing FS-Contingent Facts with Betti's
Similarities:
Both reject the need for independent fact-entities.
Both acknowledge the role of frameworks in shaping our understanding of facts.

Differences:
FS-Contingent Facts: More nuanced, acknowledges the dynamic nature of knowledge within specific fields.
Betti: More radical, questions the need for "fact" as a category altogether.

Realism:
Your FS-contingent approach aligns with a more realistic view of knowledge construction. Facts are not absolute truths but rather established within specific frameworks.

Moving Forward:
FS-Contingent Facts offer a valuable alternative to traditional fact theories.
Betti's work challenges us to consider philosophical alternatives altogether.

[Flannel Jesus]

Ai again? Booo! Get some new material.

[Iwannaplato]

In PH's insistence 'Morality is Not Objective' he is relying on his definition of 'what is fact' i.e.
PH: "a fact is a feature of reality that is the case, state of affair, just-is which is independent of any individual's opinion, beliefs and judgment, i.e. it exists regardless of whether there are humans or not."

I have countered that PH's "what is fact" in general is grounded on an illusion.
PH's 'what is fact' is specifically the traditional concept of "what is fact", i.e. compositional.

Arianna Betti in her book "Against Facts" charged that the traditional 'what is fact' is redundant and useless for serious philosophy and should be abandoned from philosophy forever.

Here's AI summary of "Against Facts"

Summary of "Against Facts" by Arianna Betti
Arianna Betti’s Against Facts is a philosophical work that challenges the traditional understanding of facts. The book primarily focuses on critiquing two prevalent conceptions of facts: compositional facts and propositional facts.

Compositional Facts
Definition: Compositional facts are considered to be real-world objects that correspond to true sentences. They are thought to be the glue that binds together the elements of a sentence, making it true.
Betti’s Argument: Betti argues against the necessity of compositional facts. She proposes that relations themselves can fulfill the role of unifying the elements of a sentence without the need for a separate entity like a fact. She introduces the concept of "relata-specific relations" to support her argument.

Propositional Facts
Definition: Propositional facts are seen as true propositions or the meanings of sentences. They are often considered the primary bearers of truth and falsity.
Betti’s Argument: Betti challenges the idea of propositional facts by questioning the nature of propositions themselves. She argues that the notion of a proposition requires a clear understanding of declarative sentences or truth and falsity, which is problematic.

Linguistic Arguments and Philosophical Method
Betti's Approach: The book employs linguistic arguments to counter philosophers who rely on language-based evidence to support the existence of facts. She criticizes the use of linguistic arguments in metaphysics, advocating for a more revisionary approach.

In conclusion, "Against Facts" provides a critical analysis of the concept of facts, challenging traditional philosophical views.
Betti's work encourages readers to reconsider the role of facts in metaphysics and to explore alternative explanations for the structure of reality.

While it recommended we abandon Compositional and Propositional Facts, the better alternative are FSERC Contingent Facts which are more realistic and pragmatic, i.e. are scientific FSERC facts, moral FSERC facts, and so on.
see below: viewtopic.php?p=724390#p724390

So, we have a post mentioning the philosophy of Arianna Betti. Then we have an AI take on Arianna Betti's ideas. Then at the end of the post we are told that really we shouldn't listen to Arianna Betti (or the AI's interpretation of Arianna Betti's work) but just go with what VA has said, which Arianna Betti actually disagrees with. So, let's appeal to the authority of Arianna Betti as explicated by 'authority' of an online AI as far as it relates to PH's idea of facts,

but,

then ignore Arianna Betti and the AI's interpretation of Arianna Betti's ideas

and just listen to VA.

And the great thing is VA need not actually be able to communicate Arianna Betti's ideas or integrate them in an argument. He thinks they go against PH, so he uses them for that, then links to the 'real truth'.

I am not sure why such a post is in a discussion forum.

We can all use AIs if we want, elsewhere.

[Flannel Jesus]

We're getting third hand interpretations here. No human in sight to speak to.

[Veritas Aequitas]

The Roots of Compositional and Propositional Facts
The concepts of compositional and propositional facts do indeed trace their origins back to the early 20th-century giants of analytic philosophy: Russell, Frege, and Wittgenstein.

Russell and the Theory of Descriptions
Compositional leanings: Russell's work, particularly his theory of descriptions, can be seen as laying the groundwork for compositional facts. His analysis of definite descriptions (like "the king of France") into logical form revealed underlying components.
Example: "The king of France is bald" is analyzed as "There is one and only one x such that x is king of France, and that x is bald." This analysis suggests a breakdown of the statement into simpler components, akin to compositional facts.

Frege and Sense and Reference
Propositional leanings: Frege's distinction between sense and reference is often seen as a precursor to propositional facts. The sense of a sentence is the thought it expresses, which can be seen as a propositional entity.
Example: The sentence "Snow is white" has a sense (the thought that snow is white) and a reference (the truth value, true). The sense can be considered a propositional fact.

Wittgenstein's Tractatus
Both compositional and propositional elements: Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus is a complex work that contains elements of both compositional and propositional views.
Picture theory of meaning: The picture theory suggests a correspondence between language and the world, which has compositional implications.
Propositions as truth-functions: However, Wittgenstein also treats propositions as truth-functions of elementary propositions, hinting at a propositional structure.

In conclusion, while the terms "compositional" and "propositional" facts might not have been used explicitly by these philosophers, the core ideas underpinning these concepts can be traced back to their work.
Russell's focus on logical analysis and Frege's distinction between sense and reference laid the foundation for later developments in these areas.
Wittgenstein's Tractatus offered a complex interplay of compositional and propositional elements, influencing subsequent philosophical discussions.

[FlashDangerpants]

And the great thing is VA need not actually be able to communicate Arianna Betti's ideas or integrate them in an argument. He thinks they go against PH, so he uses them for that, then links to the 'real truth'.

It was always evident that the whole thing VA was trying to put together would at best amount a pseudo-science. But now he has this AI tooling to further dilute his posts with random reference to some philosopher he not only hasn't read or incorporated, but whos name he will struggle recognise next week, I think we may have to downgrade morality-proper to a form of pseudo-homeopathy.

[Veritas Aequitas]

So, we have a post mentioning the philosophy of Arianna Betti. Then we have an AI take on Arianna Betti's ideas. Then at the end of the post we are told that really we shouldn't listen to Arianna Betti (or the AI's interpretation of Arianna Betti's work) but just go with what VA has said, which Arianna Betti actually disagrees with. So, let's appeal to the authority of Arianna Betti as explicated by 'authority' of an online AI as far as it relates to PH's idea of facts,

but,

then ignore Arianna Betti and the AI's interpretation of Arianna Betti's ideas

and just listen to VA.

And the great thing is VA need not actually be able to communicate Arianna Betti's ideas or integrate them in an argument. He thinks they go against PH, so he uses them for that, then links to the 'real truth'.

I am not sure why such a post is in a discussion forum.

We can all use AIs if we want, elsewhere.

Wrong!

Comparing FS-Contingent Facts with Betti's
Similarities:
Both reject the need for independent fact-entities.
Both acknowledge the role of frameworks in shaping our understanding of facts.

Differences:
FS-Contingent Facts: More nuanced, acknowledges the dynamic nature of knowledge within specific fields.
Betti: More radical, questions the need for "fact" as a category altogether.

Where did I reject Betti's?
I agree with Betti we should abandon compositional and propositional facts.

"Both acknowledge the role of frameworks in shaping our understanding of facts."
My proposal is the Framework and System approach which the same as Betti's.

Given a more sophisticate tool - AI- for philosophical discussions it is of very low intelligence to ignore to use it optimally.

[Iwannaplato]

And the great thing is VA need not actually be able to communicate Arianna Betti's ideas or integrate them in an argument. He thinks they go against PH, so he uses them for that, then links to the 'real truth'.

It was always evident that the whole thing VA was trying to put together would at best amount a pseudo-science. But now he has this AI tooling to further dilute his posts with random reference to some philosopher he not only hasn't read or incorporated, but whos name he will struggle recognise next week, I think we may have to downgrade morality-proper to a form of pseudo-homeopathy.

Agreed. In the past - pre AI - he would have put more effort into summaring that person's ideas. Of course cutting and pasting can skip real integration, but it's gotten worse. And even AIs, ironically, caution about that very deterioration in humans.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Agreed. In the past - pre AI - he would have put more effort into summaring that person's ideas. Of course cutting and pasting can skip real integration, but it's gotten worse. And even AIs, ironically, caution about that very deterioration in humans.

This is very stupid [literally unintelligent].
I had downloaded Betti's books and had a quick read of it sometime ago and noted it again recently.
With AI, I am able to save days doing a serious read of the book, with the saved time I can focus on the critical parts of the book and I can direct my attention to other books and materials.
It would be very stupid [literally unintelligent] of me not to exploit this time saving measures.

[FlashDangerpants]

And the great thing is VA need not actually be able to communicate Arianna Betti's ideas or integrate them in an argument. He thinks they go against PH, so he uses them for that, then links to the 'real truth'.

It was always evident that the whole thing VA was trying to put together would at best amount a pseudo-science. But now he has this AI tooling to further dilute his posts with random reference to some philosopher he not only hasn't read or incorporated, but whos name he will struggle recognise next week, I think we may have to downgrade morality-proper to a form of pseudo-homeopathy.

Agreed. In the past - pre AI - he would have put more effort into summaring that person's ideas. Of course cutting and pasting can skip real integration, but it's gotten worse. And even AIs, ironically, caution about that very deterioration in humans.

Is he an outlier or the canary in the coal mine I wonder? Is this effect just an unfortunate interaction between his particular psychiatric situation that results in his mania to post so much effluent every single day, along with the instant gratification he receives from a computer helping to just namecheck every philosopher ever and somehow convince himself that they are all fans of his?

Or is society at a wider level at risk from the insidious effects of an obsequious pocket pal that tells us all we are perfect exactly the way we are and perfectly wise to have a computer agreeing with us all day?

[Skepdick]

Or is society at a wider level at risk from the insidious effects of an obsequious pocket pal that tells us all we are perfect exactly the way we are and perfectly wise to have a computer agreeing with us all day?

We can train them to disagree with you all day. We can even prompt then to emulate particular philosophers, schools, a style. Your choice really.

Ultimately - the sort of engagement you want, and the echo chamber you construct around yourself is always up to you.

Welcome to self-organisation. Do you need the operator's manual?